The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Napolis, Nov 11, 2003.

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  1. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    #10201 tomgt, May 14, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    ...
    IMG_4456.JPG
     
  2. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Anyone seen Jay Koka's latest offering??
    :D :D :D

    FCA Nationals will have a poster but you can get a canvas print of the original.
    It's a nice piece....
     
  3. tomgt

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    #10203 tomgt, May 15, 2017
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    ...
    IMG_4472.JPG
     
  4. miurasv

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    #10204 miurasv, May 15, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Please compare the oil cooler in Glickenhaus DP0003 to the one in the real Ferrari P3/P4 0846 pictured at Daytona 1967 and Le Mans 1967 and the identical one in P4 0858.

    You will see that the oil cooler in DP0003 has 6 rolls on the top where the real P4s have oil coolers with 5 thicker rolls, different shape securing brackets and the pipework is completely different on the side.
    fta1 2.jpg
    fta2 2.jpg
    0858oil 2.jpg
    oilcooler0846daytona67 2.jpg
     
  5. BigTex

    BigTex Six Time F1 World Champ
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    Yep...the only way to get it, full size, is the canvas version.....traded emails with Mr. Koka today!
     
  6. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

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    Im also going to say if you look at the photo you will see more than what you pointed out different as well. You picked the easy to spot the differences. I see a little bit more that is different
     
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  8. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

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    So we have what I would call a fresh air vent (I could be wrong on its actual function) on the right hand side of the car (the cars right hand side not the photos) that has changed shape. Completely different.

    We have the entire inner wheel well sheet metal looks to be be completely wrong

    We have just about every single mechanical part inaccurate from the base of the windshield to the radiator. Winshield wiper bracketry wrong, brakes completely wrong. Extra brackets... here and there. I honestly can't see much that seems accurate at all. To say that a weld is the indication that the car was in a famous wreck and then repaired and ignoring all the other real estate around it seems a bit... um... ridiculous...

    We have an inaccurate radiator

    We have inaccurate mounting points for the radiator

    We have inaccurate tubing/structure in the form of length and possibly diameter as well for the front of the car

    We have inaccurate down tubes. These are the tubes that go forward and down to the ground at roughly a 40ish degree angle with a bracket at the bottom. I would guess this is so the nose can tilt? completely lacking.
     
  9. 3500 GT

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  10. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

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  11. emcauto

    emcauto Karting

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    Originally Posted by muk_yan_jong View Post
    I've never met anyone who had to be so right. Even ex-wives would roll their eyes. Sheesh...

    At this point and with Jim's intentions there is nothing to argue, but the only things that stick with me from this thread are:

    There is a guy who has a period correct machine that brings smiles to all of our faces.

    and

    Another guy just has to be a colossal d i c k about it.

    +100,000,000,000,000
    Last edited by 3500 GT; 10-14-2015 at 01:52 AM.












    - 100,000,000,000,000
     
  12. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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    #10211 Vincent Vangool, May 17, 2017
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
    Or knowing if there is continuity with the other Piper chassis. And how those plans relate to the plans Piper gave Glickenhaus.

    Along with knowledge of prior repairs/modifications

    Race cars in pictures from 67 can look different in 2017 after two owners. We know there were at the very least modified engine mounts and repair damage when chassis arrived from Piper. And then at that point we know the car was went over heavily by at least Hadjuk etc.

    If actually built from 0846 it would have been different in many ways due to rebuilding from a bare damaged chassis.

    One also has to account for camera angles, lenses, lighting when judging a shape from two different pictures.

    If you were looking at pictures of P3 0846 from 1966 against pictures of 1967 P4 0846 without the knowledge of its modifications, you would say they were two different chassis.

    Not knowing the history leaves a lot of ambiguity in closed case, IMO. Mostly at this level.

    Could very well be 0003. Still a amazing machine.
     
  13. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

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  15. technom3

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    First I want to agree and say... yes absolutely still an amazing machine. Its freaking REALLY cool. I mean what a shape and what a sound. If you are a car guy... it ticks all the right boxes undoubtedly.

    I just want to add when looking at the photos, I have taken into account lenses and distance etc... and have given leeway just because of those factors. I think steve has too. There are more things that I see or I could be more firm about if I didn't allow for a little slippage in that particular area. It is always possible but I feel steves assessment hasn't gone to the crazy extent of EXACTING tube diameters etc... The differences that are pointed out it wouldn't matter if you took a picture with a 1978 Polaroid camera an iphone or 4k video. I personally feel what has been argued is more of the engineering part of it... not fractions of an inch on tube thickness etc... I think its been pretty well checked in that regard.


    i don't understand your comment of

    "And how those plans relate to the plans Piper gave Glickenhaus."

    Im struggling with what that sentence means or how it extrapolates. Can you elaborate if you don't mind? Im curious as to your thoughts. While we don't see eye to eye on everything I do like to hear your opposing argument as it typically has foundation in reality and isn't just some made up bull**** (don't take that as a slap... i mean it as a compliment)
     
  16. tomgt

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    #10214 tomgt, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    french car magazine: sport auto
    german car magazine: auto motor sport

    1967, 1968
    nothing about Mugello

    Press agencies: ANSA, DPA, DPPI: NOTHING

    Customer Service in Modena was neither involved in prototype testing for the works nor for clients for 68 season; Lacking of funds (chinetti, Filipinetti, Swaters etc)
    Customer Service did not manufacture the 412Ps!
    All P3/P4 cars and prototypes/mules were built in Maranello, not in Modena
    Chassis (main tubing) and bodies were outsourced.
    Assembly: Maranello

    Customer service Modena story: it did not happen
    Mugello crash: it did not happen (Barchetta.cc SIGH!!! they even mention year of sale 0856; WRONG!)

    0846 was in F's possession, never sold, works owned car!
    No one but the factory can revive, tag a car with a number which is still theirs.

    A car that is not built, certified or outsourced (and authorized) by Ferrari is not an Italian Ferrari!
    DP0003/stamped now as 0846 is a USA "Ferrari". And it is now a legal Ferrari.
     
  17. Vincent Vangool

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    #10215 Vincent Vangool, May 19, 2017
    Last edited: May 19, 2017

    I read that question again and would have rewrote it if edit hadn't expired.

    Should read: and how the completed Piper chassis all compare to the P4 plans Piper sold to Glickenhaus.

    I also believe it is important to know the exact changes made to 0846 when modified from P3 to P4. Also modification and repair to that chassis till last known use.

    It is not really an opposing view, Just think one needs an open mind in matters such as these.
     
  18. Timmmmmmmmmmy

    Timmmmmmmmmmy Formula 3

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    I absolutely can see what you are getting at. The easiest point of view is to simply state that any fact or set of facts in a vacuum do not tell anything. Everything must be seen in light of a total story to prove something. Like that tube or mounting or whatever has been moved, fair enough because we have a photo of it in a different area. Now we know its in a different area, we need to answer WHY is it in a different area, was it a change by Ferrari, Piper or Glickenhaus. Could be any of the three but most likely Piper (if he built PD003) so why did Piper change it/ move it /alter it becomes an obvious question. So doesn't really move things along much
     
  19. tonykalil

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    #10217 tonykalil, May 19, 2017
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
    I think these questions are only brought into light, because Jim originally claimed that the two chassis, 0846 and DP003 were, in fact, the same chassis. Therefore, certain individuals are questioning and asking WHY the tubes got changed, when they got changed, and if Piper or Ferrari changed them, since it has become obvious after Steve's extensive research and presentation of evidence, that the two chassis are now clearly proven to be dissimilar.

    As you correctly state, facts in a vacuum do not tell anything. But Jim never proved any facts that supported that DP003 was actually 0846. He merely provided very well presented arguments that unfortunately, got disproven and debunked with actual facts and pictorial proof supporting other positions.

    The only known fact that we have to begin with, is that Piper built a replica P4 DP003. The whereabouts of this car were well known from its original creation. These are the only actual facts in the "Total Story". The fact that Jim CLAIMS the car is 0846, does not erase all of the factual history of DP003. And it does not add to the Total Story, with a new false narrative that needs to be disproven.

    But if you want to maintain the position that DP003 is actually 0846, then you must of course, ignore actual facts, and maintain that through ways of which we do not know WHY it was changed, or if Piper or Ferrari changed it, somehow it ended up changing from 0846 into DP003.

    This false logic can be better explained with this summary: I bought a Fiberglass Cobra Kit Car, but i claim that it is actually a real comp 427 Cobra. Let's say a car historian named Steve comprehensively compiles images of body details, engine design and chassis engineering, to prove beyond a doubt that my glass Factory 5 Cobra kit is not a Factory Competition aluminum 427 Cobra. But instead of conceding, I agree, after looking at the clear pictures of the two different cars in front of me, that the two cars are in fact different, but now challenge WHY or WHO changed my original aluminum body to fiberglass? And WHO or WHY was the engine changed from a 427 side oiler into a 390 from a pickup truck? And WHO or WHY was the chassis changed to a box tube chassis that accepts a 9 inch live rear axle? All of these questions are perplexing, despite the fact that the sales ad for my car stated "Factory 5 Fiberglass Cobra Replica with 390 CI Engine and Ford 9" rear end"

    This is how preposterous the 0846 debate has become.

    The reason that DP003 as it sits today looks different to 0846 is very simple:

    They are two different cars.
     
  20. wildcat326

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    I've tried to follow this thread as frequently as possible, and - from a longtime "lurker's" perspective - would commend the regulars here on both sides of the debate that the last few pages of summary and civil discourse have been the most enlightening and informative since Steve posted the "smoking gun" pics.

    Here's my stupid question: If I read correctly that Ferrari sent David Piper a few fresh chassis to create P4 replicas, then in the best case scenario Jim's car could be 0846 with a ton of non-period-correct-mods that never would pass Classiche muster. Worst case, it's not 0846 at all. BUT, if (and likely) the latter, wouldn't that car arguably be a legitimate period Ferrari nonetheless? If Ferrari sent out a chassis with its blessing to produce one of its cars with factory parts, then is it less of an authentic Ferrari because it wasn't produced in Maranello? Do they recognize DP003 as a serial number? Apart from the increasingly-flimsy claims to being a reused 0846 frame, wouldn't this car still be an authentic Ferrari P4 if Maranello authorized it and supplied the chassis? If so, then sure, it wouldn't have any pedigree or racing provenance, but that's still a pretty valuable trophy, if that's Jim's worst consolation prize, no?
     
  21. tonykalil

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    #10219 tonykalil, May 20, 2017
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
    I think some of your confusion has resulted from a misunderstanding. Ferrari did not send Piper a chassis. They only provided blueprints of the chassis. Piper set out on his own and had a chassis builder fabricate completely new frames to the specifications on the blueprints. Ferrari had absolutely nothing to do with the chassis, other than furnishing the blueprints to Piper.

    It has been Jim's position, that the chassis builder somehow found and recovered the crashed and discarded remains of the 0846 chassis out of the Ferrari trash pile several years after it had been scrapped. These remains were then substituted for one of the chassis that David had commissioned, without his knowledge.

    With absolutely no substantiation, this preposterous theory has been the basis for many supporting theories that have been debunked by Steve's research. Even though every one of the supporting theories, such as the P4 engine, the vestigial P3 engine mounts, the P3 rear chassis design, and all of the other fallacies have been proven to be false, somehow the original preposterous theory of pinching the original chassis out of the trash bin still remains as "proven fact" for some. And brand new preposterous theories and explanations have evolved to re-explain all of the original supporting theories that were once the "rock solid" "smoking gun" supporting evidence.

    It kind of reminds me of a child playing chess, being put into check mate, and then making up new moves and rules to deny that he has lost the game.
     
  22. wildcat326

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    I must have missed - or accepted an alternate "fact" from someone else's post - that Piper didn't receive his chassis from Ferrari. Soooooo, did Piper happen to retain the same firm that collected and recycled Ferrari's scrap, or is there some other plausible explanation for how a third-party coach/frame builder got its hands on a junked racing chassis? And if not, how did we get 10,000 posts deep in this? I've always tremendously admired Jim and his collection, but I'm starting to feel like people have been hanged on thinner evidence than he's got.
     
  23. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    Correct. Since 1967 a Ferrari with number 0846 exists no more. Today, there is just DP0003 with NY registration documents. These documents falsely identify the car as a Ferrari with number 0846 according to the request of the applicant. These documents and the car’s stamping have nothing to do with Ferrari and the car remains forever DP0003 and is simply no Ferrari.
     
  24. gablet

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    I would like to highlight this aspect and what Ing.Forghieri thinks about it.
    This is what he wrotes in an email of April 11, 2016:

    "...
    E' poi ridicolo dire che Enzo Ferrari abbia venduto i disegni originali (da voi detti "blueprint") a David Piper.
    ..."

    "...
    It’s HILARIOUS to say that Enzo Ferrari sold original drawings (which you call “blueprints”) to David Piper.
    ...”
     
  25. Timmmmmmmmmmy

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    Very interesting, thanks for posting. How does this fit with the tone and accepted wisdom regarding this car?
     
  26. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    The Piper replica frames were fabricated from the chassis builders upon some P4 blueprint not sold to them or Piper from Enzo Ferrari.
     
  27. gablet

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    In this very long thread, many times in past posts, I read that "Enzo Ferrari sold/gave 330P4 original blueprints" to David Piper so when tonykalil said this once more I believed it would be interesting to hear Ing.Forghieri's thoughts about it. It is an important contribute to this neverending story, after all who was more "near" to the Commendatore than Ing.Forghieri durig the late-sixties?
     
  28. arizonaitalian

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    Does anyone know Piper's version of where he got the plans then?
     
  29. johngtc

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    In a magazine article, probably over 30 years ago, he claimed that Enzo gave him the plans so he could make one (sic) replica and agreed he should number it 9000.

    Of course, he made a few more than the original one 'sanctioned'.

    While MF might not have known about this arrangement - if indeed it happened - undeniably 'Nostra David' was close to the 'Old Man', having bought a number of cars and, more to the point, done a lot to promote the Ferrari name though his racing success. And of course, these were merely obsolete racing cars at the time and not worth the eye-watering numbers talked of today.
     
  30. Ducman491

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    Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but Enzo Ferrari authorized Piper to make 1 "continuation" car. Piper had 3 chassis made, so if they did officially recognize one as a genuine Ferrari I don't think it would be 003
     
  31. Vincent Vangool

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    So should all of the Piper built chassis match these plans/blueprints? Do the Piper chassis match each other?

    Is it believed that these plans are the ones Glickenhaus claims to have acquired from Piper?

    Did the Piper chassis stray from these plans?

    Are the Piper plans Ferrari originated plans? Or drafted by Piper and crew?

    Do these plans match the construction of the original P4's? Have they evolved?

    Is Piper telling a tale or is Forghieri mistaken?

    So... Enzo would sell him a ton of spares and give him a serial to make one chassis but would not sell the plans to make said chassis?

    Etc, Etc.
     
  32. tomgt

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    Dear Vincent,

    All you questions have already been answered in this thread.

    Cheers
    Tom
     
  33. Vincent Vangool

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    Really?

    So why are people now saying the plans did not come from Ferrari?

    Where is the discussion of how the Piper frames match up?

    Where is the discussion of the frames construction?

    Is Piper telling an tale when he says he got the plans from Enzo or is Forghieri mistaken?

    With all due respect, I don't think any of the above has been answered in this thread.
     
  34. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    yes do some research and come back
     
  35. Vincent Vangool

    Vincent Vangool Formula 3

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  36. tomgt

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  37. tomgt

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    a friend called Franco Sbarro and spoke in Italian with him.
    Mr Sbarro doesn't remember anything about a P4 frame that was in his shop in Grandson in 1977.
    Nothing about a "0846" or P4 frame.
    He said: we put numbers on documents (carnets) to cross CARS the border and when they passed these were thrown away (not saying he did it ever with a P4 FRAME)
    He could remember a Ferrari that was burned (Heini Walter he worked for)
     
  38. wrxmike

    wrxmike F1 Rookie
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    It wasn't a frame but an entire car.
    "Here are my 2 cents in this never ending pissing contest:
    In 1977 I visited Franco Sbarro's warehouse in Grandson, Switzerland. There was a P3 or P4 car and David Piper showed me a customs carnet (customs booklet) which stated the chassis number 0846 and the name of the owner at the time was a company called "Cervan Corporation". I assume that this company was owned at the time by David Piper. No, I could not make any photos, neither of the car nor of the customs carnet.
    Marcel Massini "
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142613962-post2994.html
     
  39. tomgt

    tomgt F1 Veteran
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    No car, no frame
     
  40. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    ... and no photos.
     
  41. peterp

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    Can somebody provide a definitive statement on how all of the Piper chassis compare to each other?

    Please don't answer the above by saying it's already been discussed in this thread, because I've seen that stated a few times in this thread but I don't recall seeing the actual text that compares all Piper chassis. It's a huge thread, so it is very possible that I missed it. If that is the case, please provide the post number where it was discussed.
     
  42. arizonaitalian

    arizonaitalian F1 Veteran
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    I'm sorry, I don't understand this four word post.

    Are you saying that marcel did not see a car?

    Or?
     
  43. tomgt

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    Please read again.
    Franco Sbarro does not know anything about a P3 or P4 car nor a frame nor anything about "0846"
     
  44. technom3

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    You have been paitently waiting for the conversation to turn this way :)
     
  45. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

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    and he won't comment on this issue.
     
  46. technom3

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    So why did piper "sell" 0846 as 003 then? Why didn't he claim it to have original bits or even a BITSA car. It would have brought signficantly more money. Why did Jim and Piper have a contract stating he was buying a replica as 003. Why was 003 marketed only as 003 and not as a bitsa?

    Why wouldn't piper cash in on this? Why would he not say today that the car really is 0846?

    If he had knowledge of the car being 0846 why wouldn't he have carried that on? Not only would he have received more money for it but... it would have meant that he wouldn't have built another replica that he wasn't supposed to build. He would have been paid more AND he wouldn't have been in as much trouble...

    So...
    He didn't want extra money...
    He wanted more headaches of building cars he wasn't supposed to...
    He likes to lie about the origins of the car???
    He likes to state that a real car is a replica???

    Makes sense... LOL
     
  47. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    I didn't find such a definitive comparison either. Certainly, to compare all Piper replica chassis might be an interesting (and demanding) project. But what is its relevance? Only relevant is here, that we have with DP0003 and the late 0846 two different frames.
     
  48. tomgt

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    + Cervan corp was NOT related to Piper but an other person in the UK.
    So we can close that complete "swiss" case
    Mugello did not happen either (Ferrari scrapped chassis after LM67) no records, nothing.
    Ferrari did not test at Mugello with a P car in 1967 or 1968.
    Ferrari still has chassis tag.

    Or do we need a historian to confirm. So if Alan Boe says or Pourret we would all agree?
     
  49. technom3

    technom3 F1 Rookie

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    I guess I never thought about how old Marcel was at the time...

    Then again every 18 year old is different. I know Harley Cluxton IV at 18 would remember every last square inch of just about anything at that age. Now some of the 18 year olds that I know and even the 20 year olds that work for me... I wouldn't trust them to remember what color there mothers eyes are. LOL
     
  50. Timmmmmmmmmmy

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    As WRXMike rather succinctly put it, an endless pissing contest, and to not even afford Marcel a little respect is poor form IMO. He stated what he saw and was open about what it might mean and not mean. So to be critical of him because something that happened 40 years ago doesn't readily fit with what we know is cheap.
     
  51. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    The issue here is, that Mr. Sbarro doesn't remember anything about a P4 car and frame in his shop in Grandson in 1977 and not the question, what Mr. Massini – then around eighteen years old and collecting Porsche magazines - might have seen or not without taking pictures.
     
  52. lgs

    lgs Formula Junior

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    There is not the slightest trace of a Cervan company.
     

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