Triple Seals and Pumpkin Installation - Another Way | FerrariChat

Triple Seals and Pumpkin Installation - Another Way

Discussion in '348/355' started by m.stojanovic, Sep 19, 2015.

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  1. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    #1 m.stojanovic, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    After re-greasing the flywheel and replacing the clutch discs, I came to replacing the triple seals.

    They looked very good quality but were very tough - boiling them in water did nothing; they did not stretch and were not really softer then when cold. To stretch the seals, I had to force them onto socket bits of various OD-s, starting from about 21 mm and, in small increments, to finally 24.3 mm which was just enough to be able to install the seals onto the shaft. I kept everything in the boiling water, the seals and the bits, and took them out to quickly transfer the seals (using thicker dense cotton gloves) from one to another slightly larger bit.

    After I put the seals onto the shaft, I left them overnight to shrink back (this was supposed to happen according to what I have read). Next morning, the seals were about the same as large as before - hanging from the shaft grooves. I have read about the methods using hose clips etc. but I decided to try a gentle way.

    Phase 1 - put a 30 mm heat shrink tube (blue on the pic) over the seals and heated them with a hot air gun being careful not to overheat. Left everything for about half an hour and removed the heat shrink tube. The seals had shrunk somewhat.

    Phase 2 - now I could put 25 mm heat shrink tube over the seals (black on the pic) and repeated the heating process, left for an hour.

    Phase 3 - a new piece of 25 mm heat shrink tube on, heat-up and left for two hours.
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  2. m.stojanovic

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    #2 m.stojanovic, Sep 19, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    After Stage 3 of shrinking, the seals were ready to go in. Well lubricated, I carefully centered the first seal over the "funnel" and gave the shaft very careful taps with a plastic hammer (being careful not to damage the second un-centered seal). The second went in in the same way. When doing the third seal, as it started to go into the "funnel" one section started deflecting outwards. As I could not push it in, I grabbed the shaft with pliers and, tapping with the hammer on the pliers, pulled the shaft a tiny bit out until I could push the deflected section in. But, when I removed my finger, the section was springing out again. The solution: held it with a fruit pick while tapping the shaft with the hammer.
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  3. m.stojanovic

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    #3 m.stojanovic, Sep 19, 2015
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    Now getting ready for the pumpkin. I put a very thin coat of anti-seize (Nickel, 2600 F !) on the splines for the clutch discs. The picture also shows my guide-studs with heat shrink tube over them to reduce the free play inside the pumpkin holes. Then aligned the pumpkin, supported on a jack, withe guide-studs.
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  4. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    #4 m.stojanovic, Sep 19, 2015
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    Now the exciting part - will it won't it go in. Well, I just invented a new Ferrari special tool - push-in spring devices! After I pre-loaded the springs, I turned the flywheel for about an inch through the top slot and "plonk" it went. Not fully - the last about half inch, I had to gently hit the pumpkin with my palms north-south and east-west and it staggered in.
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  5. brent Lachelt

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    #5 brent Lachelt, Sep 19, 2015
    Very cool!
     
  6. plugzit

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    #6 plugzit, Sep 19, 2015
    Love the spring idea! Special Ferrari tool #9!!!!!
     
  7. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    #7 m.stojanovic, Sep 19, 2015
    I'll be selling the spring tool on Ebay (already patented) for 1,299.99. A bit expensive?...no, it is a Ferrari tool! I am offering a generous discount of 1% to the members here (subscribed only).

    More pics to follow tomorrow including tightening of the flywheel bolt and it's grub screw.
     
  8. SoCal1

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    #8 SoCal1, Sep 19, 2015
    I'll take 10 do I get a discount?
     
  9. ///Mike

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    #9 ///Mike, Sep 19, 2015
    The use of heat shrink tubing to reduce play in the guide studs and springs to preload the pumpkin while you turned the shaft were both inspired. Thanks for sharing the tips!
     
  10. m.stojanovic

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    #10 m.stojanovic, Sep 20, 2015
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  11. m.stojanovic

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    #11 m.stojanovic, Sep 20, 2015
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  12. m.stojanovic

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    #12 m.stojanovic, Sep 20, 2015
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  13. m.stojanovic

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    #13 m.stojanovic, Sep 20, 2015
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    I attached the torque multiplier, engaged the 5th gear and pulled the handbrake. As I tried to tighten, the flywheel was still turning though with quite a bit of resistance. I thought that the handbrake could not hold, gave up this method and just rattled the bolt fully with the impact gun (quite a powerful one, undid the old bolt). Later, I found out that I had not fully engaged the gear because I did it without pressing the clutch (I did not want to use the clutch until everything was tight). Then, I torqued the grub screw to 50 Lb.Ft.
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  14. m.stojanovic

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    #14 m.stojanovic, Sep 20, 2015
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  15. Drock28

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    #15 Drock28, Sep 20, 2015
    great write up..

    did you use the re-grease kit from MD Clutches..?
    here is a great video on the process..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSUy7BPzdWc

    why did you decide to re-grease the flywheel..? did you see the grease leaking out from the pumpkin.. or just did it while you were in there replacing clutch discs anyways..?

    how was the condition of the flywheel.. did you machince/resurface it..?
     
  16. ///Mike

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    #16 ///Mike, Sep 20, 2015
    Just a note in case you need to do this again in the future: use first gear instead of fifth to lock the engine in place. Use fifth gear when you need to rotate the engine by pushing the car. Let the gear ratios work in your favor. :)
     
  17. m.stojanovic

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    #17 m.stojanovic, Sep 20, 2015
    Hi. I bought the flywheel seals kit separately but all the info I now have is that I made payment to one Andrew Holman (possibly Ebay, cannot remember) and the Kluber grease from MD Clutches, I think.

    I decided to re-grease the flywheel because I heard a bit of rattle occasionally and once had a bit difficult hot start. Otherwise, I had no leaks from the pumpkin.

    When I removed the assembly, I found out that there was gearbox oil ingress into the flywheel and clutch area. I found oil even under the rear flywheel bearing cap. The clutch discs were very little worn (12k miles car) but had been contaminated with oil and there were signs of some slippage (black patches all over the clutch plates) which was not really noticeable when I drove the car.

    I did not machine any of the clutch surfaces as they were almost unworn (I could see original machining marks in most areas where there were no black patches. I just cleaned the surfaces using Dremel abrasive buffs (180 grit) until all the slipping/burning marks and the glazing was removed.
     
  18. m.stojanovic

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    #18 m.stojanovic, Sep 20, 2015
    ?? I think it is 5th gear in both cases.
     
  19. lotusk

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    #19 lotusk, Sep 21, 2015
    Having repacked with new grease have you eliminated the rattle when shutting the engine down?
     
  20. m.stojanovic

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    #20 m.stojanovic, Sep 21, 2015
    I have yet to start the engine. Will be putting the exhaust on next weekend, then I will know. Normally, new grease eliminates the flywheel rattle but there could be rattles from other areas, like the transmission.
     
  21. ///Mike

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    #21 ///Mike, Sep 21, 2015
    In fifth gear the engine does not rotate much for the distance traveled by the rear wheels, so it is easier to turn the engine. In first gear the engine rotates a great deal more for the amount of distance traveled by the wheels, which makes it much more difficult to rotate the engine by pushing the car, thus making first (or reverse) the best gear to help lock the driveline.

    Or, to put it another way, which gear do you use when parking the car nose-down on a steep grade-- first, or fifth? Parking nose-up on a steep grade provides even more engine braking, since reverse is typically an even shorter gear than first. But you always want the engine to rotate in the correct direction if the parking brake slips, so you choose first when heading downhill.

    The same applies to using the gearbox to lock the driveline when loosening or tightening fasteners. Use first or reverse, making certain that the engine will rotate the correct direction if the brake slips. But when rotating the engine of your race car to facilitate valve adjustment, use fifth to make it easier to turn the engine.

    Hopefully that makes sense-- I'm tired. :)
     
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  22. m.stojanovic

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    #22 m.stojanovic, Sep 21, 2015
    Mike,

    I disagreed with your "use first gear instead of fifth to lock the engine in place". To lock the engine via the transmission and the handbrake (when, for example, undoing a nut or bolt on the crankshaft pulley), you don't use the 1st but the top gear. The other two uses you mentioned, I agree (parking on a steep slope 1st or reverse, to rotate the engine by pushing the car top gear).
     
  23. ///Mike

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    #23 ///Mike, Sep 21, 2015
    If you agree with using first gear to help secure the car on a steep grade, why not first gear to lock the engine when turning fasteners? What is the functional difference? You want the engine to offer maximum resistance to rotation in both cases.

    Or, to put it another way, you say you agree with using top gear when rotating the engine by pushing the car. If fifth makes it easier to rotate the engine, doesn't it follow that first would make it more difficult to rotate the engine, thereby making low gear more effective for removing and installing fasteners?
     
  24. Drock28

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    #24 Drock28, Sep 21, 2015
    to my understanding as explained to me by Andrew at MD Clutches, when the Kluber grease is at or near the end of its optimal efficiency..

    you will get a rattle from the flywheel at hot starts.. also.. similar to the sound at shut down..

    this is because at full temp when you shut car down.. the Kluber grease trickles to the bottom of the flywheel housing.. as it becomes nearly liquid when the grease is so old..

    then when you restart car shortly after.. the Flywheel is out of balance with the grease all at the bottom.. and causes a vibration/rattle noise.. at hot restart..

    my car exhibits this occasionally, but ive learnt to remedy it during hot starts by holding the rpm up slightly for a moment, this allows the kluber grease to spread out again in the flywheel housing..

    the rattle at shudown can be resolved by holding the clutch in.. which I do all the time anyways..

    all in all.. my flywheel likely has to be re-regreased as well which will be investigated during my engine out over the winter..
     
  25. m.stojanovic

    m.stojanovic F1 Rookie
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    #25 m.stojanovic, Sep 21, 2015
    In top gear: easy to rotate the engine by pushing the car, difficult to move the car by rotating the engine (this is what you want to lock the engine).

    In 1st gear: difficult to rotate the engine by pushing the car, easy to move the car by rotating the engine.

    Example (for ease of comparison, assume diff 1:1, 1st gear 5:1, top gear 1:1):

    You need to torque a crankshaft nut to 100 Lb.Ft.

    In top gear, total ratio to the handbrake 1:1, the handbrake has to hold 100 Lb.Ft.

    In 1st gear, total ratio to the handbrake 5:1, the handbrake has to hold 500 Lb.Ft. due to torque multiplication.

    So, it is Top Gear. If you don't believe me, ask Jeremy Clarkson.
     
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