Tubeless Wire Wheels

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Bob Zambelli, Jun 1, 2015.

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  1. fly275

    fly275 Karting

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    #51 fly275, Nov 3, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Do not forget the "winged ecstasy" on the top of the grill and the superfly lights also.
    1682134d1364500851-early-80s-detroit-area-ferrari-gathering-daytonapimped02.jpg
     
  2. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli Formula 3
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    This just keeps getting better.

    Bob Z.
     
  3. Admiral Goodwrench

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    #53 Admiral Goodwrench, Nov 3, 2015
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    Dear Bob,

    On Bryan's 365GT2+2, a subtle touch.

    Best regards,
    subdued.jpg
     
  4. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli Formula 3
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    Just another report on my tubeless tire fix:

    WORKING PERFECTLY!

    Since I sealed them in August and driven quite a few miles, I'm please to say that there is no leakage at all.

    Bob Z.
     
  5. Longstone Tyres

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    Hi

    I just think it is worth pointing out that for 100 years people have been running tubes in wire wheels. and predominantly not having problems.

    If you are having problems with tubes it is probably down to bad tubes, bad wheels or bad tyres. wire wheels should fit inner tubes.

    I'm glad it's working for you Bob, and your system is similar to the one being used by wire wheel manufacturers. But we have come across problems with them. Best of luck. But here again is a film we made of a tubeless wire wheel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gce9-VU_X_s .

    Dougal
     
  6. Bob Zambelli

    Bob Zambelli Formula 3
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    No issues at all - the fix is still working perfectly.
    I have made a number of both long and short trips and the tires are waring very well.
    They work extremely well in the rain.

    I do pay very close attention to proper wheel alignment- I do all my own alignments.
    I would definitely recommend the Uniroyal brand.

    Bob Z.
     
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  8. JCR

    JCR F1 Veteran
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  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I'd simple hang the wire wheels on the shed wall and buy some alloys ... end of issue, but then I'm no fan of wire wheels. Don't understand why people like them. Even if I owned a 250GTO or LM I'd put the wire wheels in the shed and run on alloys.

    Now if the car was a 30's car, sure wire wheels it has to be, but by the 60's and 70's way old fashioned and hardly the best wheel design/option. Like running a side valve engine in the 60/70's ...
    Pete
     
  10. Longstone Tyres

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    I don't think there is any dispute that modern steel or alloy wheels with modern tubeless tyres are marginally more reliable than wire wheels. It is just a very small margin. However, if you have wire wheels they want a tube. and they want a good one. I would suggest that Michelin make by far the best Inner Tubes

    However If you have good wheels, good tyres, good inner tubes and keep a regular eye on tyre pressure (and swerve round nails) then the chances of you having punctures is no greater than with any other tyres, but if you let the pressure get low that is when you are vulnerable to issues. But like everything with an old car they need more up keep, checking oil and water etc, and every now and again your Borrani wheels will need to be rebuilt

    Here is a good cautionary film
    https://youtu.be/4m83smg6LNA
     
  11. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Actually that is not what I meant. I meant the wheel is heaps better than the old fashioned springy thing that is a wire wheel.
    Pete
     
  12. Longstone Tyres

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    Hi

    No doubt. there is good reason why modern cars don't use them.

    However nothing looks as good as Borrani on old Ferrari
     
  13. peterp

    peterp F1 Rookie
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    #62 peterp, May 17, 2016
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
    Although the alloys are lighter and stiffer, the 60's chassis and tires are pretty limited in how much stress they can put on the wheels so I don't think the driving difference between the two is that significant. I haven't compared Borrani's to alloys on the same car, so can't speak from first-hand experience, but a number of vintage owners on Fchat switch between both wheel types and I can't recall any of them saying there is a significant driving difference between the two (at least in street driving).
     
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  15. Bob Zambelli

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    Statement of complete NONSENSE.
    Borranis are NOT, in any way "springy things".

    If there're so bad, how do you explain numerous wins at the Targa Florio, LeMans, Sebring etc with cars like Testa Rossas, 250 GTOs, SWBs and the like, ALL equipped with wire wheels?

    My GTC rides on the ORIGINAL Borrani wheels that have NEVER, I repeat never, been rebuilt or tweaked in any way.

    Aside from one year on alloys, the wire wheels have been on the car for around 180,000 miles, many of which involved track driving.

    And I still maintain that there is no reason whatsoever to have inner tubes on a wheel that does not need them.

    Bob Z.
     
  16. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Technology marches on ... and while Borranis might be the best wire wheel they will not be as rigid as an mag wheel. No modern race car uses them, but peterp is right and 60's chassis technology is what it is.

    BTW David Piper races his 250LM on mag wheels not wires and he has been upgrading and racing that car for many many years. By far the fastest LM on the planet.

    I am impressed that your wheels have not needed a rebuild in 180,000 miles. I'm also impressed that you are enjoying your car that much. Hats off to you sir!
    Pete
     
  17. Longstone Tyres

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    I find it astounding that your wheels have never been rebuilt in 180,000 miles.

    Do you have any loose spokes at all?
     
  18. yale

    yale Formula Junior

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    After September 11th here in NYC, the city took the top layer off many of the streets to repave without the ground-in debris of the attack. Hence the streets were pretty rough. I was driving around NY in my 330GT a lot at the time as I had just gotten it. One day driving out of the city on the West side Highway, a cop in a patrol car gestured at my wheels as he was passing. I pulled over to see what he was on about. Everything looked fine, then I touched the spokes of the wire wheels, about 30% of them were only connected on one side! When moving my wheels must have looked like one of those cartoons with wheels made of oblong donuts!
     
  19. Longstone Tyres

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    #67 Longstone Tyres, May 26, 2016
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    Were they proper https://www.borrani.com/ferrari-wheels/330-gt.html wheels. There are some pretty dreadful copies out there with rims that i think are made out of putty.

    If the spokes are nopt done properly they soon deteriorate, if the rims are too soft they also fall apart pretty quickly.

    I suggest sticking with the correct wheels. Have them serviced by Borrani at the soonest sign of any loos or bent spokes. and oif course don't fit over sized tyres or they will deteriorate quicker. (and fit Michelin tubes)

    This isn't a Borrani and it isn't a Ferrari, but i think you get the point. He thought that wheel was fine when he went out on the track
    AS1.jpg
     
  20. jcavalie

    jcavalie Formula Junior
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    Been reading through this thread with interest as I was driving my car from the Bay Area to Tahoe yesterday and wondering how the car would react to a sudden puncture at 70mph. Now I'm wondering which sudden deflation event is more likely - puncture in tube or deflection of tire from bead in tubeless - assuming my original borranis.

    I also found this article: Tires - tubeless conversion - Loop frames - Moto Guzzi - Topics - Gregory Bender which has a similarish procedure to Bob's. While this one is aimed at motor cycles, it's interesting that they glue in rubber from a small inner tube, instead of using electrical tape.

    Not sure I'll make any changes from tubes, but would love opinions on what to expect if a tube blows out due to heat/friction or puncture. Will an XWX immediately collapse, come off the rim, etc? Do you immediately lose control?

    Sorry - I'm young enough that this is the only car I've ever owned with tubes. I've had plenty of punctures with tubeless in my cars and they just tend to leak slowly, as Bob said. Though I once, at freeway speeds, ran over a spark plug in my Lexus with a tubeless and that tire immediately deflated without incident. Tire stayed on rim and I kept control, but tire was destroyed. It was a pretty low profile tire though. No can of fix of flat would help me there!
     
  21. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

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    Had a friend who autocrossed a MG Midget with wire wheels.. We took some pictures of his car going around a corner and you could see quiet clearly the wheels deforming as we had been telling him... Once he saw the pictures he never ran the car again on wires, it was obvious that these things were deforming really badly... Today's tires are just so much better than the rubber that was used back when wire wheels were commonplace.

    Modern tires just make wire wheels obsolete. If you're going to run on modern tires with the grip level that we are accustomed with even in fairly pedestrian use, you'll find you're putting more stress on these wheels than they were ever designed to take. And while yes you can do it, just because you can, doesn't mean you necessarily should. Back in the 1960's a performance car could do about .7 g's, and wire wheel failures weren't uncommon. Now a good set of street performance tires will pull more than a G and some are good for up to 1.2 g's. That's just a lot more load than the designers of those wheels ever thought they'd see. Even in the most conservative case that's about 50% more stress than they ever got when they were new. 50 years and plenty of potholes later and you can imaging that if you're going to use these things you're going to have to pay attention to them.

    I don't want to sound alarmist, but if you're going to use wire wheels with modern tires, you need to pay attention to them. If you find any loose or broken spokes that's a red flag. When some spokes start to fail, replace them all. When you've used up the fatigue life of the material they're all dead, some of them just don't know it yet. If you're finding loose spokes the wheels are telling you they are in need of attention.

    There's nothing like the look of good old fashioned wire wheels, but the technology has long surpassed them and they need to be looked after if you're going to use them in today's environment.
     
  22. jcavalie

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    I understand all that and plan to stick with the XWX tire and plan to make sure my borranis rims remain safe. That said, is there a modern rim/tire combo that looks classic enough to use for street usage that takes a tubeless tire, has the bead, and still fits the Rudge 32 center lock?

    Or should I seek out a set of 50 year old campagnolos as my street set? Or just kept the wires I love and make sure they are maintained well?
     
  23. Longstone Tyres

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    Hi

    The important thing is to use technologies that complimennt each other. so use correct size tyres. Wire wheels should not fit tyres of less than 70% profile.

    Have your Borrani's inspected regularly. and have it done by a proper www.borrani.com agent. i have seen some shocking wheel work over the years.

    Put the best quality Michelin Tubes in them

    Generally speaking Historic Ferrari need to fit either:
    PIRELLI CINTURATO CA67 up to 1964. then PIRELLI CINTURAT CN72 or MICHELIN XWX then from 1971 we have PIRELLI CINTURATO CN12

    Unless of course you are racing, then you would want Dunlop Racing Tyres

    All these tyres were developed to work in conjunction with wire wheels. modern tyres are not suited.

    if you get these 3 issues right then you won't have problems as long as you swerve round nails
     
  24. jcavalie

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    Thanks! I am following all those guidelines. It's the nails that worry me!
     
  25. Longstone Tyres

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    Yes watch those nails.

    cvan i also suggest you buy loads of tyres off me now. i have suddenly become cheap now the GB£ worthless
     
  26. Longstone Tyres

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    I have made an updated film about tubeless wheels that i thought justified revitalizing this thread

     

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