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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by 134282, Aug 21, 2017.
Beautiful model and the detail work is incredible!
Has the red book, but I see rust.
So you are suggesting that Guarducci raced another 2-litre, very good! Any idea of the serial number?
Large vents and bonnet bulges would sugges something from 0560 onwards, I guess?
Monza and Mondial's history (and 857 S which are bound) are difficult to follow.
Yes I have an idea about the serial number but I dont want to go into an endless and useless polemic with the usual skeptics outraged everytime they see their precious old books (written more than 30 or 40 years ago) contested.
One day you will see, you will be sued by owners or auction companies because you contest the history of a car. What a circus !!
Now I prefer to devote myself to drawings.
Look : exactly like 0402/AM should be. No repaint, no alteration, no stupid restoration, just perfect as it was originally. This is enough for my happiness.
Great drawing, and just as the car should be.
No alternation??? Original??? You want 0402am be restored back to PF Spyder body???
For most people looking into histories of cars is a form of religion, they are not able to sort things themselves, so they follow a prophet. I am shocked every time I hear the testimony that something MUST BE TRUE as this prophet said so or that prophet said so.
People should realize that most prophets preach for money, restaration shops preach for money, factory preaches for money. I too have given up much of my research because the source material that would solve most - or at least some of the remaining mysteries is not available. It is locked into different archives around the world. Fortunately there are more important things in life than cars and their histories...
Kare, some make big money with their nonsense stories or parties being deliberately misinformed.
In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Yes, it would be a nightmare if a future owner put a PF spyder replica body on 0402/AM.
Look what happened to 0070/M : a (non-correct but easy to correct) 1952 Vignale coupe original body replaced by one of the most ugly Vignale replica body I've ever seen. I just want to cry every time I see this car !!
Seriously, if a car has a PERIOD rebody, that's OK for me.
I'm a big fan of Drogo rebodies for example.
What a pity to see 2735GT and 3445GT today ! I would have repaired the crashed Drogo bodies instead of putting poor replica SWB and GTO bodies on the cars...
100 % true !!
Occasionally I've been thinking that there should be a specialist organization granting reports or certificates for visual correctness of cars. At his time there is no such thing and very incorrect restorations get praised by both specialists and jurys. It is particularly controversial that factory seems to demand visual correctness as part of the certifying process, but in many cases they seem to have no clue what the car should really look like!
Cars with very incorrect looks have been certified, and on the other hand very correct or even 100% original ones would need to be modified to meet the requirements for certification. I've heard that the Hietbrink body on 0421EU was rejected which is just sick. That must be one of the best re-creation bodies ever built and my guess is that it was rejected because somebody compared to a wrong version of many iterations of the design.
Issuing a "visual" certificate might solve part of this, and would most certainly create a fuzz as so many proud owners would realize that the car they own is not as original and correct as they have been assured it to be.
412P #0850 has a Classiche Period/Current Comparison Archive book presented in a riveted (metal?) box in the yellow colour of the car.
Pics are screen shots from a Richard Michael Owen video.
Can't agree more. I hope that nobody will ever have the idea to rebody #0402M or the Breadvan. And yes, sad to see what happened with #0070M.
Piero Drogo and his panel beaters were real artists. Like you, I can't understand why so many Drogo bodies were removed and replaced by replica bodies. And the original Drogo bodies are now on cut 2+2... Gross errors.
But WHO restored that car.....Brandoli? Bachelli? Alegretti? Cognolato? Protauto? (Last one is very good at making 250/275P bodies, isn't he?)
I always wonder what photos those coachbuilders get and how they translate those into A CORRECT BODY.
As David Piper told me years ago: not many Carrozzeria have the skills as they had in the 50-70s.
No attention to detail. Correct body lines, grills etc.
DP might be right..
Will never happen as this would devalue the car massively...
You repeatingly refer to this car but I do not see anything in common with 0402am...
One has a complete new body and the other has a small modification that was obviously done earlier in its life as on can see in the picture of the car when still green.
So before cursing anybody for the restoration it would be interesting to know when, why and BY WHOM this modification on the nose was done. There is certainly a difference whether the nose was changed by Scaglietti under the ownership of Rossellini or in the 1970s by a cheap restoration shop...
I have the impression that some halo the past...Quite often one can hear bad words against the wealthy new owners and their restorers. But one should keep in mind that without them we would not see many cars anymore out there. There was a time when the cars where cheap and owned by "enthusiasts". During this time some (not all!!!) did not have the financial means to keep this jewels in the condition we want to see today, many where restored in the cheapest way in the 1970s and engines and gearboxes where replaced by whatever was available. Many cars looked horrible and if a car would be presented like this today people here would cry.
Then these wealthy people showed up and started to restore them and only since the cars increased value more and more efforts where made to bring them back in the condition they are now. So there was a time when many of the cars had many more problems than just a modified nose!
This was the reason I originally asked whether the critics have any experience in restoring such a car. It is easy to criticize others but history shows that some of the cars had a far more difficult live during the ownership of the "enthusiasts" or "purists" as you call them.
And now particularly to Jon Shirley. I do not really know him in person but I had a few short small talks with him over the years. I am sure that I have nothing in common with him that would be enough to have a conversation outside a classic car event but the times we where talking about his cars one could see that he really loves them and is passionate about them. So I would suggest that people do not prejudge owners only because of minor (nose) or even bigger "mistakes" (0070) on their cars.
Good job done by Classiche
Excellent idea !! I vote that you become the first president of this organization as you are the best of us for this job. Who follows me ?? Peter ??
I prejudge the owner of this car had a MAJOR bad taste for this horrible restoration...
Easy to alter
And what about this horrible dark blue colour !!
Why so much hate from the owner and restorer ??
But I don't want to prejudge...
I can't resist... Is this really a 250 LM ?
But we should start a new thread about wrong restorations. The goal would not be to judge the owners or/and the shops who restore the cars but simply to discuss what is wrong. There are numerous examples.
Do you really want to make a 900 pages thread ??
I don't want to prejudge the owner of this spectacular 250 LM, but he must be completely blind to drive this horror !!!
Who can explain me that ??
I don't want to prejudge the owner but...
Who are the judges?
Are they ex coachbuilders or ??
See photo: what are these three! guys doing? See also video on ferrarism facebook
Experts on P cars?
Just wondering what they are doing and on what base they give a car the points.
Thanks to Peter, we know now they are owners of a Ferrari and they already have restored it...
I don't want to prejudge the owner but...
good! a new thread, Rob will like it.
But Aardy said maybe NOT a good idea.
Not a good idea for what ? Making a new thread about how the cars shoud be ??
It's a very good idea but I'm affraid the work is too big.
An example : at Pebble Beach this year, who was able to see that the gear shift was not like original in the metallic blue 212 Inter Ghia convertible ??
(left : 2017 Pebble Beach / right : 1952 Geneva Show)
I continue ??
I don't want to prejudge the owner but...
So you are now down to the colour of a gear knob according a black and white photo???
Did you recently see any of these cars in person or are you just judging from photos sitting at home?
Yeah, they should use you...you are obviously the only expert...If you have a photo to compare with
May I ask what is wrong with that? The colour?
It is perfect! A wonderfull recreation of the original front; all lines, curves, scoops and intakes are just like when it left the factory in 1962. It could not have been done better.
It has been a common joke for years that there is a group of people you should never invite to serve as a judge. There are people who simply know too much and if they don't want to play along, it is a no-no.
So you think you guys "know too much"?
And who said anything about inviting? Sending over ten pictures should be enough for some to judge the car as this is obviously what they usually do
Too much to play along.
"Pirelli calore" stickers glued on top of all types of hoses in engine compartments alone, are too much for me. At minimum it should be required that the hoses these stickers are glued upon were of correct type, but you see those stickers on all sorts of rubber hoses.
Interesting comment. I apologize for veering further off the subject title, but I'd be very curious to hear/read how, other than obvious, like the "calore"-designation should be only used on coolant/heater applications, should one define a "correct type" hose ?
For example, after personally documenting, observing & working on many 365 GTB/4s (Daytonas) I've become to think that as many as 3, perhaps even 4, different heater hose brands were used during 365 GTB/4 production and all appear to have different appearance, reinforcement strength, wall thickness, etc details which most cannot be accurately matched in proper combination by any modern heater hose types currently available, including those from some of the same OE manufacturers.
Obviously, at least in my mind, even if New Old Stock hose matching to a specific cars production timeline was to be found still available, it would likely be 4+ decades old and therefor not practical or safe to use in a vehicle intended to be driven/used.
Other than having any and all parts or components for each car made/remanufactured from scratch, would anyone care to share how to they see this and/or tens of thousands of similar details should be appropriately handled to achieve most authentic restoration ? Keep in mind, most post-war automobiles are/were made of way over 100.000 individual pieces.
And yes, I've spent way too much time researching (& struggling with ?) this and numerous other obscure details on variety of vintage cars I've restored or worked on in past 3+ decades and have come to realize that I've only scratched the surface and therefor I might not be in best position to criticize or judge anyone else's restoration or cars, be it on the concours fields or i-net forums.
"The more I learn, the more I realize, how much I don't know" - A.E.
Highly interesting and informativ! Thanks! I saw the wonderfully mellowed car in 2012 several days during the Serenissima Run and cannot understand what (and why) had to be restored again. Any idea of the background?
Of course I have seen in person a very large number of vintage ferrari.
I have plenty of boxes full of analogic photography, long time before digital. I could make books with all the vintage pics I have.
Sincerely, you missed your vocation. You should have been a lawyer for your friends, you would probably have gained better your life than with photography. I know what I mean. I work in the legal community...
Guys, don't let this whole thing slide into the canyon of personal insults. The discussion is fundamentally interesting as long as it is about the cars.
But I wonder if Rob he s the owner of Fchat today?
I am not in the mood to discuss any further on this level...so I wish you armchair experts a lot of fun staring at your analog pictures dreaming of the past when the owners and restorers were so much better
C'mon! You know very well that people are sloppy by nature and that all kind of "quickies" are pulled on people who don't really know and opt to follow blind trust instead - especially if they have a lot of money in their hands.
For me it is crucially important to point out that these cars were originally very beautiful with amazing attention to detail and that this beauty is no longer there if we accept joe-average-down-the-street to redesign these cars.
In the end we may have a Ferris Bueller (Modena GRP-replica) on the lawn and people will keep praising how amazingly beautiful car the California Spider really is. It is already happening on the internet and I think it is very important to take action against this.
Wise words and I do fully agree.
The problem with restoration (for me) is that these cars were originally industrial products, made by common workers and sold to customers for a profit. Now they are pieces of art rebuilt by artesans who spend enormous amounts of time and money to get everything "right". I do accept "over-restoration" and sort of see the restored cars to represent a version "how these cars would deserve to have been built in the first place". I appreciate IAC/PFA-level restorations, but as always get annoyed when everything is not in balance with the chosen level.
For me the balance is very important. If one chooses to maintain an unrestored car, my advice is to clean the rusty and dirty spots a little - and to avoid using too shiny new parts. It's all about maintaining and improving the balance. Same for top level restoration; if you go to Pebble Beach with a 100% restored car, everything should be taken to that same level. Therefore seeing cars with incorrect grille shapes makes me sick. Therefore I don't like the Pirelli stickers. I don't really appreciate - or care - if all the hoses are 100% accurate to original etc. but forgering "Pirelli Calore" by applying stupid looking stickers to a Chinese market hose is ridiculous when everything else looks perfect!