Will there be a NEW manual transmission Ferrari model?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by Mikael-F360, Aug 31, 2017.

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  1. henryr

    henryr F1 World Champ
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  2. henryr

    henryr F1 World Champ
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  3. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    #103 TheMayor, Sep 5, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
    Counterpoint...

    The disappearing stick shift: Less than 3% of cars sold in the U.S. have manual transmissions - LA Times


    In 2006, 47% of new models offered in the U.S. were available with both automatic and manual transmissions, according to a study by Edmunds.com. By 2011, that number had dropped to 37%. This year, the number has fallen to 27%.

    The actual sales figures are even lower. Edmunds senior analyst Ivan Drury said fewer than 3% of current U.S. car sales are manual vehicles — compared with 80% in some European and Asian countries, and down in the U.S. from 7% in 2012 and 25% in 1992.

    Its dead Jim, like the Car Phone, the Walkman and the TV Picture tube.

    I can tell you for a fact because last year I went looking for a Manual Mini S and finally found one -- that the dealer couldn't sell. People don't want them anymore

    Its like the Jerry Seinfeld joke

    "Sooooo, what's the deal with people still eating with chopsticks???? They've seen THE FORK!"
     
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  4. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    Men and women in Japan have quit having sex (by and large);

    This in no way makes it less fun than it was before.

    Manual gearboxes allow one to communicate with their car in ways no auto no computer controlled gear slammer can. For example, say you want to take 3 seconds to switch between 4th and 6th gear. Can't do that with a flapper. F1's Can't let the clutch out over 2 seconds so that the car accelerates glacially and smoothly.
     
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  5. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Mayor that stat is for all cars, most cars are appliances for people.

    In sportscar land its different.
    Dodge Callengers have a 50/50 take up rate.
    Vettes is something like 35%
    BMW M4 40%.

    Depends on the car and intended market, for sportscars its still a significant number.

    Well see how many G3s they sell with a stick, from what I hear these are sold out at a premium etc. So as many as porche will make.

    GT4s were a 100% takeup rate there were not paddles offered and the G4 doubled overall cayman sales.

    There are lies dammed lies and then there are statistics.
     
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  6. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    Thats a very good point. It also goes to where I was going- I don't think you can draw a lesson for Ferrari with the 911R or other model.

    I don't think Ferrari will ever make a model with pure electric. I think Ferrari is a company with racing at its core. And with that comes their ICE. It's like a fine watchmaker. You buy a Patek for its movement- though these days many buy it for other reasons- at its core, its about the movement. When you buy a Ferrari, theres a reason they dress up the engine and engine bay. Its about that racing heritage present in the engine.

    Sure they might add some electric assist, but pure electric? No way.

    Ferrari and stick is most likely a thing of the past. Same as carburetors, etc.
     
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  8. jjmalez

    jjmalez F1 Rookie
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    They are dying. Funny you brought up the CD observation. I recently bought my wife a new Mazda 3 and it doesn't have a CD player. It does have a manual 6 speed however, and a pretty slick one at that. :)

    Back to the regularly scheduled manual transmission conversation

    Joe
     
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  9. Quadcammer

    Quadcammer Formula Junior

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    Agree completely. Even my 997 Turbo, mildly modified with a mere 550bhp is too fast to truly use as intended. I get maybe 3 or 4 seconds of full throttle acceleration before I'm well over the speed limit and immediately looking around to make sure no police are around. Sure feeling that power is fun (and this car is a snail compared to the new stuff), but its not really useable. Going full throttle through 4 gears in my boxster with a 280bhp 3.2L is all kinds of fun because you actually have time to enjoy the sensations.

    As for track driving, i'd argue that the vast majority of ferrari, porsche, etc owners don't have the skills to properly track a 348, much less a 488. You see it all the time at the track. The guys with 8 million hp fly down the straight, hit 150-180mph, and then come to a damn near stop to take the turns. And really, if you were to turn off all the nannies, there are few owners that could exploit these cars' performance, street, track or otherwise.
     
  10. TheMayor

    TheMayor Five Time F1 World Champ
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    I don't disagree.

    There are people who like vinyl records too saying it sounds better -- but try to find the latest Taylor Swift album in vinyl.

    You can't because there aren't enough people out there who want it to support it economically.

    The manual gearbox is going through the same thing. There are people who claim its better for this reason and that. But not enough to justify it --- especially in our current world obsessed with fuel economy, emissions, 0-60 times and HP.

    WE are the enemy. WE are killing the manual box, not the manufacturers. If the auto makers thought they could make a buck making and producing manual cars we'd see a load of them.

    But they don't believe it.
     
  11. JWeiss

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    Latest not on vinyl yet, but most of the others are:

    https://www.amazon.com/Red-2-LP-Taylor-Swift/dp/B009NT0I06

    I don't understand it either. Blame Urban Outfitters and B&N.
     
  12. Nutbehinddawheel

    Sep 23, 2016
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    No.
    Porsche 992 platform in 2 years will apparently be auto only.
    New emission regs to blame apparently ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. Mitch Alsup

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    Porsche does.............

    ETA::
    Corvette does,
    Camaros does
    Dodge does
    Mustang does
    .....
     
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  15. vracer

    vracer Formula 3
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    Not bloody likely!
     
  16. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran
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    So all you do with a semi-automatic Ferrari is go from 4th to 5th, accelerate very gently, and then go from 5th to 6th and, "Hey presto!", a 4th to 6th gear change in as many seconds as you want. All it takes is a couple of pulls on a paddle with you finger tips - Hardly the most difficult thing to do!

    A semi - automatic car will only accelerate as fast as you allow it to - Even if the car in question is a Ferrari!

    And a big advantage of a semi-automatic Ferrari is, there's no chance of miss down-shifting to a gear that's too low for the road speed, risking smashing into the rev-limiter and causing the rear axle to lock up completely - Try down shifting too many gears in a semi-automatic and the cars computers will simply say: "Sorry Dave.......I can't do that!". A manual car on the other hand will simply let you get on with it, and any damage caused will be your own fault!

    Another advantage of a semi-automatic Ferrari is the fact that there is room for both of your feet in the drivers foot-well to operate the pedals, without the need to twist your ankles to avoid hitting two pedals at once (quite a common issue for those with large feet trying to drive a Ferrari!).
     
  17. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

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    Failing to get the experience of doing it yourself. And impossible to feather the clutch out so that there is not thrust shock to the suspension.

    A person downshifting like you indicate is a person who cannot use a manual transmission. A) he was not listening to the car (unaware of the RPMs versus speed relationship), B) used poor technique (let the clutch out too fast), C) botched the timing. In effect, a complete dolt.

    And over hundreds of thousands of such events, I can't remember a single time I damaged anything--heck I'm at 66K miles, 5K of which took place of race tracks and I'm still on the original clutch.

    Another disadvantage, is that your left foot has nothing to do and atrophies, along with your brain.
     
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  18. 4rePhill

    4rePhill F1 Veteran
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    "Doing it yourself" is a lot slower than letting the computers do it for you. It's like sending a letter when you could use email - It's nice and quaint, but if you want a fast answer, it's not the way to go!

    And whilst early single clutch semi-automatics such as those found in the F355 F1 were renowned for being a bit harsh and putting a shock load through the drive-train, the latest dual-clutch semi-automatics are a lot more gentle on the drive train.



    All true - However, the point I'm making is, with a semi-automatic gearbox, even with the most ham-fisted driver on the planet onboard, there's no risk of it happening.



    So you're representative of ever single Ferrari driver on the planet? :confused:

    Sorry to break it to you, but not every driver is as good as you obviously are!



    Really? :confused:

    Ever heard of left foot braking? - I hear it's quite popular in minority sports such as Formula 1/GT racing/rallying etc., etc.

    (Hell [ :rolleyes: at the swear filter! - Is the Devil's residence really a swear word?], the Scandinavian rally boys used to left foot brake manual gearbox rally cars decades before semi-automatics were even though of!)

    I've used it for years when driving automatics/semi-automatics. Once mastered, you can adjust the attitude of the car mid-bend with careful application of both pedals, and, you can get back on the power earlier.

    It's like heel 'n' toeing in a manual, but with more room for your feet! :)
     
  19. INTMD8

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    So the best sports car would be fully autonomous?
     
  20. Mitch Alsup

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    What about those times you want to "do it slow"? If you want to do it fast, it is pretty easy to slam from gear to gear without using the clutch, just go to maintenance throttle, and bang up the gearbox.

    None are so gentle that you can safely switch gears on glare ice.

    Why are Ferrari making cars for ham-fisted drivers?????????

    Yes, I left foot brake all the time, even WITH a manual tranny.

    When doing this with a manual, you actually have to use your brain and figure out whether you need to downshift in the middle of braking, or not. But those ham-fisted drivers are already taxed out just thinking about braking.
     
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  21. paulchua

    paulchua F1 Rookie
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    I totally agree that manual is simply marvelous, but it can't be said enough that the reason other manufacturers can do it is their sheer economies of scale.
    It takes all of Porsche about 8-9 months to make what took Ferrari 70 years to produce. There are more Mustangs made in a year and a half (Camero about 2 years) to equal the number of every Ferrari made in 70 years.

    Corvette 2016 Production: 40K
    Camaros 2014 Production: 98K
    Mustang 2014 Production: 134K

    Some bean counter already determined long ago that it is a money loser. Ferrari is after all in the business of making money, and if something won't make money (or could potentially lose money) - they won't do it (see California and Gallardo stories.)

    I don't think anybody is against having a manual version, it's just the folks that want manual don't seem to make the lion share of new car purchasers.
     
  22. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Rookie
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    Thanks to Porsche, we will soon see what the higher end of the market thinks about manual transmissions. The new GT3 will have it as a no cost option, for both the winged car and a new "touring" package car that provides a Guerney Flap and moveable deck lid spoiler that is flush until deployed at higher speeds. For those wanting a NA, 500bhp, 9k redline car with a manual, this is your car, with or without the big, stationary wing, though I think you can't get a touring version with PDK, whilst you can with the big winged car. Sales numbers of both transmission types will tell the story, though Porsche may choose not to reveal them.

    It would be interesting to see the manual transmission sales numbers for the Corvette, Camaro and Mustang.
     
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  23. David Lind

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    This is a very interesting question. Don't forget that Enzo himself was technically wrong in stating that, "a Ferrari is a 12 cylinder car", so I get the concept of marque evolution. The problem for us manual fans is that we represent an aging and numerically decreasing demographic. In a decade or so Ferrari won't care what people like me want ... hell, they might not care right now. But others seem to get it: Porsche, Lotus, Aston, Corvette. If you are a business man, however, you must ask the question, "where did that get the Dodge Viper"? Come to think of it, Lotus is - yet again - teetering on the brink.
    Ultimately, I fear that The Mayor was correct in his above statement; in 20 years our cars may be illegal for street use anyway. But for me, the idea of all sports and exotic cars being electric makes me almost suicidal. (OK, that was hyperbole, but you get the point.)
    Drive 'em now, get all the fun you can, and take good videos!
     
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  24. henryr

    henryr F1 World Champ
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    if you think faster is better.... u should check with your girl first
     
  25. Bluebottle

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    I think it is unlikely that Ferrari will ever build another manual car.

    The idea that the manual gearbox is a thing of the past / today's generation cannot use a manual gearbox, however, is not true. Not everyone lives in the USA. Here in the UK, probably no more that one new car in four has only two pedals. I would guess that that goes for most of Europe and a lot of other parts of the world, too.
     
  26. boxerman

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    I think you dont quite understand the manual demand in the USA. and its roots, nor do soem otehrs who live in the USA. It also seems that while there are more manual cars sold in europe we have we have far more manual perfomance car offerings here than europe. In fact in europe there are hardley any manual performance cars offered.

    The demmand for the BMW m series to come in manual is from the USA almost exclusively, not europe. The issue in europe is cheap crapboxes, ie most of the cars sold there were manuals, so an auto is seen as premium.
    In the uSA great sportscars were from Europe and most always were manual. Autoboxes were slower and always less fun.

    Since in the uSa we also have mostly crap roads and idioticaly low speed limits, the more the car asks of us at lower speeds the more entertaining and desrireable it may be, hence the desire for manuals in sportscars. Its also true that with corvettes and Camaros now having 650hp and just as much Tq the need to rapidly shift gears is diminished so a manual is unlikely to have a performnce penalty and is likely to be far more enteraining to drive.

    I always laugh when I hear paddles are faster. yes on track if you are skilled enough to drive thats fast and your brain can process the speed fast enough, which is unlikly to be 99.9999% of new ferrari woners. What paddles are is an excuse to drive an autobox and get away with it by saying they are faster.

    In fact most ferrai owners go nowhere near a tarck, Of those that do very few have the skills to drive with the nannies off let alone take advangge of paddle benefits.

    Its also far easier for lazy company, that thinks it can sell everything to not do a manual, Its easier for emissions and fuel economy
     
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  27. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    Xactly.

    Great analogy
     
  28. boxerman

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    Except porche in the rlevant for comparison cars does not really have the economies of scale to which you refer. Porche produces a very narrow range of NA cars and a narrower range of these with the 6 speed manual. The 6 speed box and attendant engine mating/emissions/fuel economy package was ostensibly developed for 500 911Rs' Even if we assume it was alla slo planned for the Gt3 and include the new Gt3's at 50% takeup rate thats still a total of what 4k units over 2 years?. If porche can make money at 2k units per year, how about ferrari?.

    Ferrari is just lazy and does not give ac rap about performance car owners, its interested in luxury handbags for men with great paper numbers to drive to club/resteraunt. The prfit comes from 1800 sheilds and fake Cf options, in theory the current brand cred unbderpinings comes from f1 racing, paper numbers and a past calaogue of exceptional cars.

    Its funny how peopel here say a manaul is a dinosaour, and ferrari is all about cutting edge performance., So youre all cool then with an all electric ferrari? because if tesla is any guide it will be "faster"

    No, seems most people here love "archaic" engine noise, archaic "burning fuel" and the drama, associated with it, just like some go for the full sprtscar packager and also love a manual. The differentiator between paddles and manaul in most cases is the differentiator between the the love of the art of driving and the rest. Ill grant that .01% really get it on track with paddles where they are most excelent. There are also a very few ferrari owners lucky enough to live in Germany, argentina, south africa and parts of the Me where car can be maxed our regularily enough that paddles probbaly are just as entertaining and therefore "better"

    As for muisic anologies its more like an ipod as opposed to Cds. I pods compressed sound they lost the highs and the lows, but were convenient and easy to store and acess music. Cds are like good modern tech in cars such as Fuel injection reliability, power etc and retained 99.9999% of the good parts from vinyl without the loss associated with Ipod convenience.

    Vinyl, today thats just an affectation, like driving an old MGB when you could be driving a miata.
     
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  29. boxerman

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    the 64,000 dollar question.

    A car that people said would never be built again, no demmand apprently.
     
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  30. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Rookie
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    boxerman, I agree with your last few posts, especially the one quoted here. There are limits to that, though. Like, the new Alfa 124 and Miata probably demand even more from us at lower speeds to get the most out of them in an "entertaining way," but I don't think I'd be trading my 360 for either of these any time soon. It will be an interesting few years to come, now that Porsche has "found" the manual again, for the U.S. market, at least.
     
  31. becker

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    Yup it happened to my trusty E34 Bimmer lame guys got in but couldn't get it to go looked around in the compartments but there was nothing of value and left.
     
  32. Need4Spd

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    On this one, though, I disagree. You don't have to be that skilled at all to appreciate paddles on a track or back road. In fact, it's even more important if you're not so skilled. It's not just a matter of the machine being able to shift in milliseconds compared to me clutching in/out and pulling a lever through a gate. The F1/DCT box will rev match perfectly so I don't upset chassis balance, and will not accidentally go into too low a gear, and thus save me from accidentally over-revving the engine on a downshift. All this allows me to go way faster with a paddle-shifted car than an equal manually shifted car. But there's more entertainment in the manual car.
     
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  33. Bluebottle

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    I don't disagree with anything you say about the demand for manuals in the USA. I was simply offering an alternative to the view expressed by others that, because most cars are automatics, the current generation will not want manuals because they don't know how to drive them. This may perhaps be true in the USA, where very few mainstream cars (the sort in which 99.9% of people learn to drive) are manuals, but is not true in Europe, where the vast majority are. Indeed, very few of the sort of cars in which most of this generation will learn to drive are ordered, or even available, as automatics: autoboxes are mainly fitted to larger, more powerful cars, which are prohibitively expensive to insure for young / learner drivers.

    And, just for clarification, while I don't think Ferrari will offer a manual again, that does not mean I don't believe they should, because I do. What I would like to see is a smaller, less powerful, much simpler, more beautiful, "back to basics" car, without all the electronic gizmos, aerodynamic aids, and all the extra weight / bulk of a 488 or 812. If you like, a Dino for today (though probably not the car that Marchionne may or may not have in mind), or a much toned down F40. The sort of car Colin Chapman might have built if he were still alive. Indeed, something more in the mould of a Lotus Elise. It would, of course, have a manual gearbox.
     
  34. boxerman

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    Sorry if I came on strong. I do agree with all your points.

    Some here mix statistics of total manauls sold with statistics in sportscars.

    Maybe ferrari will or wont make a more elemental manual drivers car(its not just about the tansmssion), I think for sales numbers and profit they eventualy will make a "classic" series just as ducati does. They are also not blind to whats going on at porche. Fact is ferrari would sell 10k cars pe year now if they could, they cant not least because the market for expesive Gt cars(which is what most ferraris are) is limited for that brand. Yes there is an element of maintaining n exclusivity, which is no different at 8k or 10k units. Yes they maintain some wait lists to manintain the illusion of tension in the market, if they tried to move past 8k units with the current range that tension would dissapear.

    I will say that today lotus makes a thoughly modern version of the type of car ferrai used to make, ie pure drivers cars that work and are entertaining on street and track . Today lotus is for "drivers" in the know, ferrai has the badge is mostly a branding company making really fast striking looking cars with tuneful engines, pretty bland to drive at realistic road speeds and hardley ever seen at the track (for many reasons). Given that most cars today are excercised fully only at De events one questions what ferraris are for.
     
  35. boxerman

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    Yep no ones trading their ferrari for a miata, but the drivers formula could and does work at higher performance and price scale, as we see with porche.
     
  36. boxerman

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    Yep, and while I am far from a pro track driver my next track car will be paddles for the reasons above. But on track at max attack paddles do not detract from the experience, arguably allowing one to enhance it by going deeper and be more focussed on corners, the extra speed, well theres always a faster car esp if youre in a street based car..

    However I cant see a primarily street/occasional track car I own being paddles. Ferraris and sprts cars in gneral are to me are very much about emotion and experience, thats why they look as they do, sound as they do and are a latin product, so its an anathema to me why we remove key elements of the drivign experience and engagement with the machine.
     
  37. Lotaz

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    Hate to bring this up but I saw the latest (before the one that is brand new over the last couple of weeks) TS in vinyl at Dillard's. Funny that they carry albums as I have bought several there over the last year or so.
     
  38. paulchua

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    Your thesis that Porsche does not benefit from their enormous economies of scale (including the cross resources of VW, Audi, & Seat) is questionable. Even with the number you quote - 2K units (which is low btw, especially when you count all manual cars the VW group produces) a year - this is already 1 out of every 4 Ferrari in this hypothetical take rate in one calendar year.

    You mention laziness and a desire to cater to current buyers. These are not mutually exclusive to their decision - If true (and I sympathize with your assumption) it would support my point that it *is* extra work that doesn't have an ROI and integral to my original argument.

    To argue on subjective components such as sound, smell, even driving feel takes us to P&R - and is a fool's errand (but fun, hence these regular threads always get a rise out of everybody - including me.)

    I know of people that *do* prefer paddles (I don't)
    I know of people that *do* prefer electric or hybrid (I don't)
    I know of people that *do* prefer all the electronic doo-dads (I don't)

    To pump my chest and say manual is better than F1 or 'purer' or 'truer' etc. is silly in my opinion. The power will be with those that are willing (or unwilling) to part with a 1/3 million dollars or more on these toys. There are plenty of competitors happy to take their money if Ferrari doesn't give them a manual.

    I'm sure some people out there prefer steam and carburetors, more power to them! There is no shortage of available older Ferrari with stick for folks that consider it a non-starter with the loss on current models.
     
  39. boxerman

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    I think you dont follow my thesis or are beign puposefully oblique. Porche and vw audi group makes many cars as do FCA including manual dodge challengers and fiats, so what, Youre confusing two stats either purposefully or not.

    The 6 speed 991 gearbox and the gearbox engine combo now in the Gt3 is unique to that car and carries 2k sales per year. From what porche has previously said when the 991 ca,me out paddles only, in todays world when you develop a gearbox its really all part of an entire tranmission engine powerpack, it all has to be integrated with the motor electronics, stability systems etc. In fact then its far more complicated than just building a new box and bolting it to an existing engine. Pretty much all the software needs redoing, as do the epa tests etc. Yet for very few units porche makes it work because its porfitable and there is clearly a core customer driver segment porche is wise enough to satisfy..

    That Gt3 tranmison is used nowhere else, nor is the motor, so where is the economy of scale. In my math am assuming 4k Gt3s of all stripes built in year and 2k being manual which may be generous. Yet with a limited run of cars 1/4 of ferraris total porche can do it.

    Or put another way. Could or would ferrari make 2k cars per year for purists. Or would ferrai like another 2k sales of an existing platform.

    No one is saying one transmission is better than the other. rather that one is far more engaing to drive on road than the other, and one is far more convenient in trafic or if you cant really drive or if ultimate track speed is your priority.

    However it does tie to the larger issue of ferrari being basicaly now a manufactuerr of somewhat islolated to drive really fast Gt cars, as opposed to more elemental drivers cars. Porche for one offers both Gt and elemental experiences plus everything in between off one platform by offering different derivations.

    many of us drive sportscars for the experince of the drive, and fact is on the road at reasonably semi sane attainable road speeds modern ferraris are sorely lacking here.We all still seem to value the "subjective" design, the "subjective" motor drama and sounds, the "subjective" latin flair, yet many no longer value what many of us find the best poart, and that is the engagement with the machine, where it becomes an extension of your body, mind and will. Not having a manual is but one missing element in far larger picture..
    True sales of such a machine would be limited, but then 2k units per year is good numbers for ferrari.

    Yes there are other manufactuers, and if you take Maclren sales, add those to R8 sales and amg GTs sales, throw in some lambo sales youll see that a client base ferrari once had 80% ownership of has indeed moved on. The reasons are the ferrari buying experince, the homogenized drivign experince and concurrent brand image , A pity because ferrari used to have all those bases covered.

    The proof is in the pudding, because once you strip away all the ferrari Bs the fact is with a 4 car model line 3 bespoke platforms and two distinct engines they still cant get past 8k units and maintain order tension, simply because there really are not many more buyers there, they have decamped.
    The current ferrari factory can produce 10k cars, other than a new model in its first year and few specials now and again there really is no problem ordering a new ferrari. If they tried to produce more they would be in discount territory pretty quick. So yes ferrari expanding its bandwidth would do them good, and some elemental cars might also restore some lustre to the brand as a drivers car.

    Frankly if FCA could have developed the 4c they can certainly develop an elemental ferrai off an already existing platform. That they dotn speaks volumes about the priority at ferrari which to paraphrase from the unfortnate cadillac marketing speak is a luxury branded company that happens to make cars, and at 8k units theyre making great profits on options and chotchis etc. How then to get past 10k units, well an suv for sure, but hopefully that opens up mental bandwidth to start making some great driving feelsome ferraris again.
     
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  40. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Rookie
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    Indeed. The high end market for "driving as entertainment" used to be owned by Ferrari, and now you have to think that the sale of every McLaren, R8, high end AMG, and even the upper end, relatively limited production 911s (911R, 911 Turbo S, GT3, GT2, etc.), is one that Ferrari used to make. They are all eating what must be a relatively limited market. Speed limits and other traffic on the road act as a practical ceiling on how fast a car can be without the marginal differences becoming almost academic. Ferrari can no longer compete simply by making the fastest, best handling car, because on the street, you can't really use any margin much beyond 3.0 sec, 0-60, and 1.0g on the skidpad.

    These limitations are akin to what the limits of human hearing are to the high end audio industry. It used to be very difficult to obtain highly accurate, distortion-free musical reproduction in a home audio system. But as mainstream companies were able to deliver specs previously the domain of exclusive makes, it became very difficult to hold that high end position. Why pay 3x or more for audio electronics when 99% of us can't hear any difference?

    So then, what will differentiate Ferrari from its competitors? Driver involvement has to be at least one such differentiator, as would be the other intangibles such as sound, road feel, etc. Ferrari still enjoys an enviable position because its cars depreciate slowly and in some cases appreciate. Figuring out what drives that, however, and keeping that edge, is difficult.
     
  41. paulchua

    paulchua F1 Rookie
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    You are free to interpret the following facts are 'obtuse.'

    Economies of Scale
    1) Ferrari is no longer part of FCA...for a couple of years now. Sure they still supply Maserati engines, but I find it hard to accept a transmission from Fiat 500 would be a match for the next generation of cars. Would a Ferrari owner be pleased to hear that the transmission from the Dodge Demon is in their 488?
    2) Manual development is about the R&D; the GT3s manual transmission is not a different paradigm from a 911 manual transmission. Sure - there will be changes, but the reason Porche can do is that they sold over 170,000 991s examples since 2011 (or 26K a year) - with 15% of them in a manual, this variant easily subsidized by the thousands of 911s. Not only regarding part sharing but R&D.
    3) Add this on top of the R&D cross savings from manual transmissions for the Boxster/Cayman/Audi & VW.

    If you still challenge my assertion that Porche has a whole different level of production scale - nothing more I can say to sway your mind.

    Driver Engagement
    1) I got a choir robe on when you laud the benefits of ICE, stick, and the flat crank sonic goodness. It's a slippery slope though -

    2) I often drive with owners that consider the regular 360/430/458 'soft' and non-engaging compared to their Challenge/Scud/Speciale. - They are entitled to their opinion, and I believe them - but woe to them if they say a 458 owner is less engaged, less connected, more isolated, etc because they don't have (fill in the bonafide required here) that's not somebody I want to continue to keep company.

    3) You love manual - Kudos! (see #1) But the fact remains that the people buying these cars overwhelmingly don't care or prefer automatic - I make no judgment on those folks because it's their money - not mine.
     
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  42. paulchua

    paulchua F1 Rookie
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    ..McLaren, AMGs, & the R8 all don't offer a manual today (not to mention Lambo, Aston Martin, Bugatti, Koenigsegg) Michael Schätzle: project manager for the 911 stated the manual option will last one, maybe two more generations.

    If manual transmission is the delimiter for the demise of a high-end sports car company, plan on your next Lotus.
     
  43. Need4Spd

    Need4Spd F1 Rookie
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    Yes. So what I meant really had nothing to do with the transmission type; apologies for straying off topic. The point I meant was that these cars are taking market share from Ferrari because they now offer similar levels of performance, so Ferrari needs to look at the other things they can offer to help differentiate and capture market niche. If manual transmissions is one of them, like Porsche has chosen to do, then they should at least seriously consider it. If they only look at achieving higher and higher levels of performance, that will no longer be sufficient to differentiate.
     
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  44. boxerman

    boxerman F1 Veteran
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    I think you are mixing and matching gain, with little factual knowledge.

    I never asserted that a fiat transmission had anything to do with a ferrari one. You assetred that audi and vw group manual boxes gave economy of scale to porche manual boxes, they are in fact completly different subjects. In fact what what i understand ferrari did not develop and does not make their paddle shift box, nor does ford for the Gt not does MB with their paddles nor does Mclaren, these are all outsourced..

    Here are the hard engineering facts which perhaps you are unaware.
    The manual in every non Gt3 991 has nothign to do with the one in the Gt3. These others are 7 speed boxes of an entirely different design somehat derived from the pdk one, they are mated to a turbo flat 6 which besides being a flat 6 has nothign to do with a Gt3 motor, no block or parts in common.

    The Gt3 box one is agood old fashioned 6 speeder and also has nothign to do with the one in the cayman. Additionaly designing a manual box mechanicaly speaking is the least of it. Intergrating a human operated manual with a computer driven motor on a computer driven car and having it all work seamlessly while meeting regulation esp etc is the big task. Paddles are easier to do here because their parameters are far more controlled, paddle only is the lazy option.

    A 991 Gt3 manual transmmsion is a completly differnt paradigm a completly different thing to a 7 speed turbo porche(regular 991's) setup. In fact they have zero in common besides flat 6 layout.


    You assert porche has economy of scale, do they really have that when it comes to the Gt3 motor transmission combo at 4k units? Because thats the debate you raise and they developed a bespoke motor tranny combo for what 2k units max. Ferrari has more margin to play with than porche here its easier for them to do.

    yes a regular 458 unless its at 9/10ths or more is actualy as boring as a hyundai to drive, a great pity as its a stuning design and has a great motor. The issue with the 458 goes well beyond the transmission

    I have also pointed out numerous times that its not just about the manual, that is but one component of a drivers car. I am quite sure that the lambo performante which is paddles only is still an excellent drivers car for many other reasons and virtues which modern ferraris seem to lack.

    Do I prefer a manual, for an entertaining sunday backroad drive undoubtably, just as I prefer a lively chassis great responsive and acurate motor and live steering. In other road situations a paddle is preferable which I think speaks volumes about who buys most ferraris these days and why.

    As to ROI and whether there is market there. Well ferrari thought they would never be able to sell the required for homoglation "raw" 288, a car built on budget mostly derived/evolved from exiting pieces, they were suprised at the anger from enthuisiasts who coudnt get one even though they made 78 more so went on to the rawer F40 . The F40 even more raw built on a budget and derived from the 288 was expected to sell not more than 600 copies they eventualy stopped at 1570 or something when for various reasons more production became not possible. By the enzo they went all soft heavy and "collector" collectable not really driver car.


    Point is about the 288 they took many existing componants evolved and repackaged them into a raw elemental car and did so on limited budget, it really does not have to be that expensive. Can you imagine a 4c tub with proper suspension a Ferrai/alfa TTv6 (iyts a ferrai v8 minus 2 cyls were told) stick etc. its your new F40.

    Or we hear this same motor is going into a sub 488 replacement with 600 hp, cant to too hard to do an elemental version.

    Whats the ROI now on having 3 platforms and 2 motors to sell only 8k units, they can do it because at thier prices you dont need vloume, surely a transmsion an great alive steering is easier and cheaper to do than say a FF.

    As others have said ferrari wants sales, time to court enthuisiast core drivers again, it will also help their brand cred which is dangerously devolving into rich cant drive poseur ponce territory, thats why thye cant go past 8k units and maintain "exclsivity" essentialy demmand tension.

    As to ICe frankly thats less impirtant to me than how the car drives, drive a tesla and youll see electric is far and away going to be the best performance motor option in the future. Currently electrics have weight and stamina gainst them for a performance car, but as a powetrain its superior.

    i raised the issue about elctrics becaise all those ferraristas say an ICE is a critical compoant yet say ferrari only does paddles because they are all about cutting edge eprfomance, in which case there shoudl be no issue with electrics. But there is an issue with pretty much every ferrari owner witht he idea of an alle lectric ferrai no matter how "fast" because people like the subjective aspects of ICE and that by way of analogy is why a manual has its place, as does being able to turn off all those nannies..


    i like sergio becaiuse he wnats to make cars, that means he will find new niches for ferrari to fill, an elemental car and or classic line as ducati does seems like its on the cards.

    As for an SUV, not every suv is a body on frame tahoe, today unibody suvs performance disadvantage to a sedan are statistical and road irreleavt. I put a ferrai suv(if done properly) in the same box as 365 queen mother and a 400I, big useable cars with some ferrai mystique.

    Since I care about the actual car far more than what the badge stands for or means to laymen(which to me is negative trait) a suv and profit driver if it gives enough energy and cash to ferrai to build some truly great cars I am all for it, just as I am all for the current crop of non drivers Gt cars they make as they pay the bills keep the lights on and their componants could make for some excellent real drivers ferraris.

    Anyway lest see what happens with the Gt3 manual takeup rate, and lets see what niches Sergio decides to fill. Maybe when paddles came out it seemed like the gretest thing, now they in a manual free ferrari era people realize what has been lost, so it may see a renaisance.
     
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  45. JaguarXJ6

    JaguarXJ6 F1 Veteran
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    I read an interesting thread about the Porsche electric sports car coming in a couple years and the brilliance of the instant torque and paddles. This is great for the younger Playstation generation. As they get older and more driving experience they are going to find what older folks know, it takes more stimulation to have the same thrills behind the wheel. Enter the manual gearbox, petrol engine, and auditory stimulation aka sensory experience. I actually feel bad for them. Their cars will be as simulated as their lives.
     
  46. F2003-GA

    F2003-GA F1 Veteran
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    Hilarious :D
     
  47. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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    I don't think Ferrari hates America. I am, however, starting to think they are more interested in marketing and the bottom line than they are in satisfying (relatively) small sales segments such as manual transmissions. In other words, Ferrari's nocturnal emissions are not about transmissions, they are about commissions! :D
     
  48. Caeruleus11

    Caeruleus11 F1 Veteran
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    I'm pretty sure Mercedes builds its own transmissions. Just because they use paddles, in some cases its actually an automatic, and sometimes a rejiggered automatic (like in the S63 AMG).

    I think you are both right. I am willing to bet Porsche sees a value to their entire lineup by keeping those who want a stick shift as happy clients. Therefore you could say the costs are amortized over their production run. What's more, there could be pieces that are common to all these transmissions, and they could be spread across even more than Porsche or perhaps even the VW group, depending on the supplier.

    Entirely subjective opinion. I disagree, but grant that you don't care for the experience.

    Like?

    The world is a different place today. Back then almost no one paid for TV or for water, and no one over paid wildly for coffee. Ferrari is not alone in trying to give its clients everything. The 918 and the P1 also are saddled with heavy batteries etc. (Would Porsche do a 918 with a stick today?)


    It would never be the new F40. It could be fun though. However, what's wrong with the 4C as it is? Sure it has paddles, but I spent an afternoon thrashing it around and I thought it was a lot of fun! In general, though, I don't like V6s. I just don't like the sound. I realize Ferrari has had many engine configurations in the past, but my opinion is they should stick with V8 or V12
    .
    I don't agree with your conclusion, I know many people who are good drivers who get these cars. I think perhaps you are worried because its not a car for only very accomplished drivers? As to elemental version- I am all in favor!

    Objectively you are right. But for me, I will borrow a quote from a friend: driving an EV is like being told you can eat whatever you want, no calories, no gaining weight, no indigestion, no problems... BUT.... also... NO FLAVOR. Not for me in a dream car like a Ferrari. I would be happy to have such a thing as my daily car, it wouldn't bother me very much.

    i
    Good point. I think the paddles are a technology from F1 though. Electric as a helper, aka KERS, I think would be fine in a Ferrari. As a matter of fact, I think I heard of one.. even two models with it! LF and LF-A. People seem to really love those cars. But I think a pure EV would not work. You really need the sound and I also think the simple act of combustion.

    I admire his desire for Ferrari to return to F1 glory. I think an SUV could be justified for the reasons you state. But then, it might not fit what I think a Ferrari should be. Just like it seems you don't think the 458 is what you think a Ferrari should be. Its OK, we are but two people. The good news is we are two people who care about Ferrari.

    I would be just as happy to see Ferrari offer a stick shift option but I don't think it likely (would be very happy to be wrong).
     
  49. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle Formula Junior
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    Ugly and too wide.

    Brest engine Ferrari ever built is a V6 (as is the car it went in).
     
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  50. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle Formula Junior
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    I meant "best", of course, not t*t :) Where's the edit button gone?

    Agreed.
     

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