F430 Track Wheels | FerrariChat

F430 Track Wheels

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by General Jack, Jan 9, 2014.

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  1. General Jack

    General Jack Karting

    Nov 28, 2012
    139
    Austin, TX
    What are some good track wheel options for an F430 (F1) with steel brakes? I know that OEM 430 wheels or Scud wheels would work, but interested to know whether there are any lower cost options.

    TIA
     
  2. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
    Full Name:
    RBM
    BBS FI
    Finspeed F11, F10
     
  3. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,299
    ESP
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    Bas
    BBS FI (GTO wheels but an inch smaller) look absolutely fantastic.
     
  4. Teachdocs

    Teachdocs Formula Junior

    Sep 3, 2012
    567
    Kansas City area
    Full Name:
    Chad
    #4 Teachdocs, Jan 10, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
    BBS 1 wheels are probably more expensive than a set of used f430 wheels and almost as expensive as a used set of Scud wheels. Also, last I heard, BBS was experiencing some production problems in terms of quality and production times.
     
  5. Bas

    Bas Four Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    41,299
    ESP
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    Bas
    probably right on cost.

    Haven't heard on anything production quality related. Remember that people buy lots of knock off wheels, when they fail and it goes on the internet...it's history. Not saying BBS don't fail, but since the BBS FI is a forged wheel I really doubt it.
     
  6. General Jack

    General Jack Karting

    Nov 28, 2012
    139
    Austin, TX
    Thanks for the replies, I'll look into those.

    I have another question, the Ferrari Scud Style wheel literature says the following "The wheels can only be used in combination with the mono-block titanium studs: ideas that enhance the absolute technical limit in terms of non-suspended lightweight masses on the F430."

    Should I be concerned reusing my stock, non-titanium studs, were I to use Ferrari Scud Style wheels?
     
  7. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    4,425
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Steel is generally a harder material than titanium which has more of a resilient quality to it. Depending on the material characteristics of the Ferrari Scud rims, steel may be too hard at the recommended torque settings and may compromise the rim material of a superlight rim. Hardness is not directly indicative of strength so a steel stud of the same strength may be harder than its Ti counterpart.

    The Ferrari verbiage also alludes to the 40% weight savings on a rotating unsprung mass - your car would accelerate faster with lighter wheels. I would stay with the factory spec'd Ti bolts.
     
  8. Teachdocs

    Teachdocs Formula Junior

    Sep 3, 2012
    567
    Kansas City area
    Full Name:
    Chad
    Cheapest OEM option for some track wheels would be some used F430 rims. Should be pretty easy to source.
    Next would be used "Scud Style" wheels. Harder to find and more expensive.
    Most expensive and hardest to find would be the true Scud wheels.

    There are differences between Scud Type and Scud wheels, besides the price and availability.
    Scud Type fronts are 7.5 inches wide and Scud fronts are 8 inches wide. I do not know about the composition of the two types of wheels, but my understanding is the true Scud wheel is lighter due to different alloy than the Scud Type wheels. They are also a different shade of gray paint color.

    A benefit of true Scud wheels would be the extra width on the front, allowing you to go with a 235 or 245 width tire which could possibly help with an understeer prone car. If you ever go with larger steel brakes, you might also need the true Scud wheels.

    The Titanium wheel bolts could have a different seat angle than the steel bolts. Be sure to check that out.
     
  9. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
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    RBM
    +1. That would be my greater concern, rather than the different material properties of steel vs. Ti.
     
  10. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,773
    Indianapolis
    Titanium is very strong (yield strength typically around 141ksi for the most common alloy 6-4). Carbon steels (like the common 4130) have a yield strength in the quenched and tempered condition of about 130ksi, so the strength is very similar. There are some very high strength steels that are used in fasteners but you usually don't find them used in lug nuts and studs because they tend to be brittle.

    Titanium is not "resilient", (there is no such material property), it has substantially less elongation (does not stretch much before it breaks) than most steels. Titanium has an elongation of only 15%, where the elongation of 4130 is about 60%, so as you can see it is much more susceptible to cracking or breaking if it is overloaded. If you meant that titanium was more tolerant of overstress, that is simply not the case. Overload Ti and take it beyond a 15% elongation it can break, where steel will bend a lot before you break things.

    Hardness, as measured by the Rockwell system does very closely correlate to strength, but one has to be careful in that steels with very high hardness can be very brittle (think spring steels here) and therefore a lot of that higher strength may not be usable. In fact there is a correlation with Rockwell C and yield strength that is commonly used for steels. Here's a link to just such a table... Hardness Conversion Chart 3

    As others have noted there could be differences in the shape of the titanium studs, so you want to make sure that whatever wheels and lugs you used are compatible so that you don't break things.

    If you have a choice titanium is really not a good material to use for something like a wheel fastening bolt because on a racing car you are removing and replacing the wheels often and you can end up with a galling problem pretty easily. If you are racing for prize money and a few hundredths of a second make a difference then go for it. If you aren't doing big time racing you could take a Ti lug and have a machine shop make a set of steel lugs that have the same contour might be a better solution.

    Lastly, titanium is particularly prone to galling and subsequent stripping when used in threaded fasteners. It's very bad when used against stainless steel, not as bad on carbon steel or cast iron, but without proper coating you can have big problems with titanium threads galling.
     
  11. General Jack

    General Jack Karting

    Nov 28, 2012
    139
    Austin, TX
    You can fit a 235 onto the 7.5 OEM or Scud Style rim, can't you?

    Very good point, thanks.
     
  12. 4th_gear

    4th_gear F1 Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    4,425
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    Michael
    Thanks for your information. I apologize if I am not using the correct metallurgical terms.

    What I meant by the "resilience" property of titanium (relative to steel) is that titanium is able to resist splitting and failing better than steel when elongated. I believe titanium "…elongation numbers of 20-30%, which is much higher than steel's 6-15%…". You also alluded to this when you pointed out the brittle nature of high some strength steels. High elongation numbers is desirable in fasteners. So for me a fastener that resists failure is "resilient".

    As for galling, I understand stainless steel studs are also very prone to galling - as you've already pointed out, it's the nature of the material. The way to avoid galling is to observe proper stud installation procedures and most importantly, to apply appropriate lubricant to reduce heat and prevent damage to the protective oxide layer on the titanium surface.

    I'm suggesting the OP stick with studs that are recommended by the rim maker for a number of very good reasons, liability being one of them. However, if you don't agree with Ferrari's choice of wheel stud materials, you can always contact them and discuss the matter. :) I'm just offering my opinion from my personal experience. I'm not in the metallurgy business.
     
  13. Teachdocs

    Teachdocs Formula Junior

    Sep 3, 2012
    567
    Kansas City area
    Full Name:
    Chad
    Yes, they should FIT. The 8 inch Scud wheel would be a better fit, however. Also allow to use a 245.
     

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