road atl de fatality

I don't know the exact specifics of the RA accident or its cause(s), so I'll speak generally; but I agree with you. I'm pretty disappointed with Ross' opinion on this one. straight line speed is rarely the cause of death at a race track. limiting straights to 100-120mph doesn't do much when a driver can still take corners at speeds in that range, and outside the parameters of their skill set.

here's my remedy for these situations:

- we need to start guys on HPDE in autocross/skidpads to learn car control more safely

-greater use of telemetry and video with after-session coaching vs instructors riding along (the technology is out there and getting pretty cheap)

- a graduated policy for skill sets matching vehicle performance, similar to limits on motorcycle displacement for new riders (this policy is fairly common outside the US) this could be based on power, power/weight, use of slicks/Rcomps, lap times, etc.

-better circuit design and safety systems (not saying this is the case at RA but other tracks have had glaring safety gaps until there's a fatality, Summit Point and CMP come immediately to mind)

-adopting the motorcycle mantra of All The Gear, All The Time...proper harnesses and head/neck restraint REQUIRED for all cars. if you're not willing to make this basic modification to your car, you're probably not ready for the abuse it's going to get on track either.

HPDE in all its guises needs to be more proactive or that segment of the sport will be regulated/underwritten out of existence.

 

all a hans device needs is shoulder harnesses, there are a lot of ways to integrate those into cars without a full cage (or even a half cage like you see in lots of Porsches). some of them are somewhat easily removable to retain full use of the back seats, etc (https://store.vacmotorsports.com/brey-krause---e46-m3-harness-mount-bar-p2569.aspx)

other H&N restraints don't even require shoulder belts, like the Simpson Hybrid. Hybrid Sport: Simpson Race Products

people are going to sue anyway and having a system in place designed to mitigate accidents seems far more defensible than letting a newbie loose in a 600 horsepower car.

 

I had not heard of the fatality at RA... I live in Atlanta and have driven RA a number of times some fast - some slow... regardless its a track where you have to have the up most respect for your car and abilities.

Its very easy to do 140 + on the back straight going into 10A& B... and in Ferrari's its more like 175 - 180... there are lot of places you can have a very nasty high speed accident, RA is not a place to be macho... it is a place to be respected.

driving on a race track is dangerous... no matter where you are.

All that being said a good lap at Road Atlanta is what driving is all about. it rewards smooth patient consistent driving... and stings otherwise.

 

The big shunts I have seen at De events have mostly been people who had close to zero track experience in something like a z06, half the time there wa scar failure like street pads melting or street brake fluid. The other shunts were really experienced people in advanced groups going really fast with fully prepped cars that came on trailers, these shunts are rare.

Moral. At De events people with close to zero experience simply should not be on track in overpowered cars, or they should be limited in the speed they can attain. For someone to be in an advanced group you should have something like a skippy racing school. Once you start really going fast(ie not on straight) you are pretty much into the safety equipment out of intelligence and experience.

It amazes me how many people have been tracking for years even in increasingly faster cars safetly but have never been to a race school, they are sometimes fast but also miss the basics.. Even to fly an ultralight you need some schooling.

Not to say that you have to spend years working up the ranks at De, but if you have say a 3 day skippy and check out it should be ok to move up.

Or maybe we just limit the lower groups to lower top speeds.

Thing is DE events are a buisness and they are selling the thrill of speed in your own car, so can tend to look the other way, how often are people oblivious to giving pointby's.

We also must accept that wherever people go fast, sooner or later there will be accidents, even on open roads. In that sense De events have a pretty low accident and fatality rate. But yeah some could be run a little safer, while still being not too restrictive.

 

I guess same number of track days maybe a bit more. My larger point very few serious accidents at all. So possibly my sample size can be altered by 1 bad accident in one group. I lump intermediate and novice as one group. Seen it happen with instructor in the car too. Where there are crashes in advanced the cars tend to have cages 6 point belts etc so imo serious injury less likely. there are aslo people in advanced groups who imo should nto be there, and others who prefer for whatever reason to stay in intermediate even though they are very good drivers.

Back to the larger point. the injury rate at De events given the number of miles driven seems to me to be very low. I wonder how it compares statisticaly to flying a small plane or riding a mtorcycle.
And yes occasionaly every few years somethign bad may happen. But given the cars on hand and miles driven an accident is likely but its all probably pretty safe.

My guess is none of us what to see these events crimped through onerous rules, or stopped due to lawsuits/insurance. The larger question then is this likely, are we just one lawsuit away from DE events being ultra contolled or banned.

I know everybody signs a waiver, are these really valid in terms of event organisers and tracks being sheilded, if not then there can be a problem down the road with DE events.

 

I founded and have operated Apex Driving Academy 12+ years ago and have done DE and other special events for years. We are blessed with what is probably the safest track in the world, MotorSport Ranch, but we have also had not a single car-car contact and no impact with anything more than cones and curbs. We don't have 130 mph + speeds due to track configuration, and we keep a very tight leash on students. Novices do drills in coned off sections of track to start and it's not easy to be solo or advanced with us.

I'm not saying we can't have an incident, but I am saying having crashes in DE events on a regular basis just plain baffles me.

Finally, the impetus to go to "big" tracks and drive big power fast cars should come with a healthy understanding and respect for the much greater risks. Pro tracks have walls to protect spectators and never forget stopping distance and the energy your car carries goes up with square of speed.

 

Oh No! Not here too.

 

Very Sad! Road Atlanta is no joke!

 

Sad news, RIP to the driver.

Do we have any specifics as to what happened and perhaps why?

Just last month I was at Monza talking to ex Can Am racer Bob Earl -there to race a 512M during the Historic weekend July 10-12- and we found ourselves mentioning Bob Akin's fatal crash in the Esses at Road Atlanta in an IMSA GTP car -during a mere historic event-, prompted by just a slight contact with a backmarker...I had spoken briefly to Akin at Moroso a few years earlier...

Best regards,

MS

 

Yes. I usually find one of two responsible and cool dudes to run with and will try to hook up with them. When it gets crowded, or people think they are racing, I will pit to get away. My local track does a good job of black flagging people that think they are racing as well.

 

Yes.. or I give a bunch of point by's ... to get into clear air... if I start to catch up and pass, i then cycle through the pits.

I dont mind one or two cars... but when you are at the beginning or middle of a train.. .its not fun. I did a FCA event back in the 90's - at RA before the modifications... so they have a tire chichane on the back straight before the dip... i was in my 308, going through 7... and into the chichane... all of a sudden i hear this ripping noise... thought it was my car... here is it was Bob Rapp's son in a 333SP... coming by... he was so fast i had no idea he was even there...scared the hell out of me!

 

Closing speed is definitely a big deal at DEs. You have massive differences in horsepower and couple that with the same variance in experience. It can be interesting.

I usually take it easy passing people in the scud for this very reason. People can get spooked just because you appear out of nowhere. Driving in your mirrors the whole time is also stressful and dangerous.

 

I'm told car in front of Mustang was older Datsun Z car motor let go and dropped lots of oil.

 

Thanks, that's the kind of situation no one could evade...and why, when at the Nurburgring Nordschleife, I just do one lap, very aware of my surroundings : too many idiots around. I do want to do private days there, that is very high on my list

"Driving in your mirrors the whole time is also stressful and dangerous."

+1000 that is why i would never do Le Mans in a GT car supposing anybody offered (one can dream): being in the rain at night in the Porsche curves in a GT car with factory LMP1's all over you? No thanks.
At the other end of the scale I remember feeling very comfortable at Moroso when I test drove a 333SP, taking my time with slower traffic, no pressure...

Best regards,

Marc

 

Yikes! That is one of my top fears that I never try to think about, but am completely aware of outside the car. Probably my top one is suspension collapse/steering failure in the middle of a high speed turn. Actually happened to a guy at a racing event I was at in Sebring recently. He walked away without issue thankfully. Then there is Senna to always remind us of course.

I love to drive and race, but fear/risk management is absolutely part of the equation.

 

1. Racing is inherently dangerous. One of the refreshing things about taking your car to the track is it is one of the few places where you can take something to the edge and it is your responsibility. They have not "nannified" it like everything else in life. I say change nothing.

2. I just came back last night from a full day at Sebring with Chin Motorsports and there were 2 crashes yesterday. Neither would have been prevented from any measures discussed here. The first was an advance solo driver in a 911 track spec car and the car in front of him lost his rear bumper cover. The 911 driver did an evasive maneuver and didnt quite make the corner as a result. He slide off the track, spun and slightly hit the wall (cosmetic damage only and since it was a track/race car it was not that big of a deal). The second accident involved a Corvette that had a mechanical failure, something broke in the suspension and the car immediate spun out and he hit the wall pretty hard. Both drivers had full restrainst systems and as a result had no injuries.

In short things do happen at the track but it's not going to be solved by "baby-ification" of track events.

 

agreed

here is an example of some wildly unsafe driving at a recent bimmerfest event that i think was run by speed ventures @ Fontana CA.

notice the fine job the instructor does of reigning in his student.

GACK

Corvette Z06 Vs Porsche GT3 HEAD 2 HEAD fk MotorTrend_zpsp5yhc1ek.mp4 Video by aaronc7 | Photobucket

 

this is why I am no longer interested in instructing any more. I am too old for this sch it. this instructor is letting these clowns dice?? really?? not interested.

thanks for posting.

pcb

 

...sign language, it that a new instruction method??