Planning on buying a 458 Challenge-- any advice for a newbie? | FerrariChat

Planning on buying a 458 Challenge-- any advice for a newbie?

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by Ky1e, Aug 17, 2015.

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  1. Ky1e

    Ky1e Formula 3

    Mar 4, 2011
    1,250
    FL
    I've only tracked my 458 spider twice and I love it. The thing is the speeds are a little unsafe for a street car. A track car has full racing seats, 5 point harness, hans device, roll cage, fire suppression, cool suit (cool water runs through a shirt with tubes) so you can wear fire retardant suit but still be cool. It's safer, plus wont beat up my 458 spider.

    I think I'm going to buy a 458 Challenge car for the track. There is one owned by a member here that I'm considering. It is a 2012 with 3000 miles about 10 track events of use, used by recreational driver (not used on the Challenge series). No accidents, all original, telemetry system, cool suit, 2 sets of wheels, up to date service. Anything I should look for?

    Whats the best way to get Challenge car checked out (since yo cant drive it, it's unlike any other car purchase I've made)... any advice?

    What are some good places to find quality Challenge cars for sale? Most have been beat up by the Challenge Series.
     
  2. Zalfor

    Zalfor Karting

    Mar 31, 2013
    54
    Chicago
    Full Name:
    John
    you could also consider getting another racecar that other people drive so you can compare your driving with theirs
     
  3. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3

    Dec 13, 2004
    1,863
    NAPLES
    My advice would be to start with something else. The 458 is a lot of car for a beginner. It has so many electronic nannies you will never learn to drive it well. But if you insist on buying a 458. Buy the 458 Evo. It is much more forgiving to drive.
     
  4. Ky1e

    Ky1e Formula 3

    Mar 4, 2011
    1,250
    FL
    Update: Ferrari of Central Florida has a lot of experience with Challenge cars. They are doing a full inspection, compression test, leak down on the car on Monday.
     
  5. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    Good! Have fun!
     
  6. Sicilian1

    Sicilian1 Karting

    Oct 7, 2013
    85
    Bethesda,MD
    I completely agree with Greg, however, my first race car was a 430challenge. I thought because I was fast in my street 430 that I would get a challenge car for the safety features . It is not the same and slicks are another story. The one thing I did was hire coachs all the time (including ProCoach who got me started-thanks) and go to the track all the time. This path worked and got me to the point where I am competitive in the CCR series. I recently bought a BMW e46 that I race with NASA. Really fun and really cheap in comparison but it's not a Ferrari and that's the issue.
     
  7. GaryR

    GaryR Formula 3

    Dec 11, 2006
    1,006
    Valencia, Spain
    Full Name:
    Gary R.
    I'm with you.. learn to drive in a car that you can learn in without $2500 a weekend in consumables (that's just for the slicks!) and you can walk away from if you have an "issue". With your experience I would scale it down to something like a race prepped Porsche Boxster or Cayman S to have a car that can stay with the pack and be quite fast driven well. Plenty fast, a small percentage of the cost of the 458, 100's of available events nationwide that will put an instructor in the car with you or hire a private coach like Peter.
     
  8. rotaryrocket7

    rotaryrocket7 Formula Junior

    Dec 7, 2011
    580
    Eden Prairie, MN
    Full Name:
    Matt
    The above is all good advice, however I bet you still want the 458, right? Best piece of advice is to get a driver coach once you get the car and spend time learning to drive it correctly, maybe even a couple of barber or Russell events as prep. Whatever choice you make on the specific car, have fun at the track!
     
  9. GaryR

    GaryR Formula 3

    Dec 11, 2006
    1,006
    Valencia, Spain
    Full Name:
    Gary R.
    And no one can fault him for that!! :D
     
  10. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3

    Dec 13, 2004
    1,863
    NAPLES
    I heard he is buying Jeff's/Alan J's 458 CH. It is a nice car. It has more than 10 tracks days, but it doesn't really matter.
     
  11. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Apr 4, 2010
    3,114
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Jes
  12. cgfen

    cgfen Formula Junior

    Jun 1, 2015
    447
    vista ca
    I suggest that you buy a less capable car and learn to drive very well in a HPDE environment first.

    Perhaps a modern Cayman?

    Then move to whatever strikes your fancy.
     
  13. Ky1e

    Ky1e Formula 3

    Mar 4, 2011
    1,250
    FL
    As described in the link above, they surprised me by selling the car to someone else. Jeff has since apologized.

    Not really interested in moving down from my 458 spider. If I dont get a 458C, then I'll just track my 458 Spider until the 488 comes in.
     
  14. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Apr 4, 2010
    3,114
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Jes
    Good luck finding another - should be plenty around, no?
     
  15. RotarySwingGolf

    RotarySwingGolf Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2011
    490
    Florida and Idaho
    Another option if you want to run a Ferrari is a 430 or 360 ch. Since you haven't been in a challenge car you'll be shocked by the braking and cornering difference to ur 458 street car. A 360ch will easily whoop a 458 street car at Sebring without breaking a sweat. In some ways it is more difficult to drive Than the 458 but I can't say that as a blanket statement as the 458 has its challenges. But the 360 WILL make you a better driver assuming you don't destroy it first. It's more pure and has no nannies like the ediff of the 458 (I don't use the TC on either car and you don't want to learn how to drive in a car that does so much for you). Fortunately the traction control in the 360 sucks so bad you won't want to use it. I've never even tried it in the 458, the ediff is a big enough pain.

    If you want to learn how to drive get an older one or turn everything off in the 458 and take it easy and hire a coach. But the 458 is not like a lot of other proper race cars. You will have to learns how to drive around the ediff and that skill wont necessarily transfer to another car but is a requirement to go fast. Either way hire a coach who knows the characteristics of the car. It's the best money you'll spend.
     
  16. rmarchjr

    rmarchjr Formula Junior

    May 21, 2012
    576
    North east, USA
    +1 - you will develop as a driver faster in a 360CH or 430CH. Both will set excellent times vs much higher powered car when you learn to drive them. At the same time these cars excel at the "ferrari experience"- sound, emotion, rawness, and the occasion of driving are all there for 1/2 the initial cost and greatly reduced running costs, the 360/430 can be run without track support.

    458CH- very high parts cost (suspension)& gearbox issues-getrag (42k replacement)-not sure its possible to run without on track support.

    Truly- purchasing any Challenge car is the down payment - maintenance/support availability & cost should be considered.

    Good luck- it is pure smiles when you have a good plan.
     
  17. RotarySwingGolf

    RotarySwingGolf Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2011
    490
    Florida and Idaho
    You CAN run a 360 or 430 without support if they're FULLY sorted, which most are far from it, especially the 360's. I've put 100k into my 360 to get it sorted and would say it's as sorted as they come, but it took me a year to do it and during that time there were a million little quirks that I didn't know that sure as hell aren't documented anywhere where you need someone with experience to diagnose. IE, hit a hard bump coming through turn 17 at Sebring and the car dies, what do you do next? That kind of stuff.

    Until you learn the car you'll need help on any of them because you'll need a computer to diagnose problems, it's frustrating but reality. The other option is a 355 which you don't need a computer for but has it's own headaches and it's relatively slow so there's not a lot of places to campaign that car if you get that far.

    BTW 458 gearboxes can be had for $16k rebuilt now, so they're less of a giant expense, but definitely an expense. You need a VCI to do anything with the car, but it is more reliable simply because it's newer.
     
  18. rmarchjr

    rmarchjr Formula Junior

    May 21, 2012
    576
    North east, USA
    Very kind of them to lower the cost of a rebuilt box considering Merc uses the same one and sells it for 12.5k new. Ratios are likely different.
     
  19. RotarySwingGolf

    RotarySwingGolf Formula Junior

    Dec 24, 2011
    490
    Florida and Idaho
    Ratios are definitely different. They're different from the italia for the challenge car. And that's not from ferrari for the gearbox.
     
  20. Ky1e

    Ky1e Formula 3

    Mar 4, 2011
    1,250
    FL
    #20 Ky1e, Sep 14, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
    I was at homestead Sat and Sun. Spent time with 360C and 430C guys, challenge coach, and race support team and got some more good data (I've been taking in info from lots of sources to get many reference points).

    They too were suggesting a 360C or 430C over the 458 C. My thoughts are, true the 360 and 430 are less expensive to purchase and operate however they are a lot older cars, they have a lot more wear and there is a lot more to replace on them. Eg with my 360 I was replacing all sorts of random things like engine mounts and suspension parts because it was a 6-7 year old car.

    That said, Bill at Speedworks was suggesting I start with a Cayman Interseries car. Learn the good habits in a less HP car but also because it was pennies to operate compared to the 458C. Everything from tires, pads, rotors, body panels were all dirt cheap. It would be easier, safer and be better to learn on.

    So my current plan is to look into the Caymen Interseries cars, possibly get one and use it for about a year to get more seat time and then look into the 458C. The other good part of this is in 1-2 years the 488's will be out and there will be a lot more 458 Evo's available.

    For example something like this:
    2010 Porsche Cayman For Sale $79,900 - 1283511
     
  21. Entropy

    Entropy Formula 3
    Owner

    Jul 10, 2008
    2,149
    good move to start with a Cayman.

    If I may, I'm not sure i'd go for an Interseries car (the original type); have had many friends who have had them and, while I'm sure their issues are sorted now, at the time they were not the most robust cars.

    What I would suggest is you find/work with a top-notch shop who can help you find, or even build, an updated (i.e. drives better, more reliable, less costly to maintain) Cayman race car - which are plentiful in the PCA ranks.

    Another shop to connect with on the Cayman side is DeMan Motorsports up in NY. Rick DeMan builds great cars, always has some for sale (for his customers), and is active in supporting his customers.

    At some point in next 1-2 years my daughter is going to move out of her race karts and Fiat race car and I'm going to put her into a DeMan Cayman- great learning platform and easy to upgrade as well.
     
  22. rmarchjr

    rmarchjr Formula Junior

    May 21, 2012
    576
    North east, USA
    An excellent choice, good for you. That will get you learning more, at a faster rate, then starting with a high hp car. As an instructor it's funny to see how difficult it is for a person without experience to develop good technique in a big power car. Momentum cars like the cayman are the best way learn. Good decision you will not regret it, the 458ch or 488ch will be available when ur ready, and someone will want that preped Porsche when ur done w it.
     
  23. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    Good plan. There are lots of local resources close to you for these. John Tecce at BGB has built some amazing cars, I really like Brady Refenning at 901 Shop for service, transport and support and of course, there are a ton of others in FL.

    While the Interseries is no more, a good PCA GTB1 class Gen 2 car would be more than sufficient and an EXCELLENT learning platform. You don't have to get a PDK car, but it's more fun, IMO.

    Here's a client of mine at Sebring: https://www.facebook.com/peter.krause/videos/10152600813613790/?l=3252199646589569848
     
  24. Jagbuff

    Jagbuff Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
    2,267
    Site of US F1 Race!
    Full Name:
    Franck
  25. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Sep 15, 2004
    5,464
    VIR Raceway
    Full Name:
    Peter Krause
    It is, when you're doing it right! :)
     

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