best way to instruct hpde | FerrariChat

best way to instruct hpde

Discussion in 'Tracking & Driver Education' started by 95spiderman, Oct 25, 2015.

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whats best way to instruct at hpde

  1. in passenger seat

  2. with telemetry

  3. follow the leader

  4. with walkie talkies

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  1. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    Lots of talk in road Atlanta thread on how to do it best so thought it could use its own topic
     
  2. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I don't think it is one or the other personally and perhaps the question is a bit too vague? Best for the instructor or the student? For example, a lot of places use passenger seat + follow. BMW uses walkie talkies + follow. I'm not aware of any schools or events that use telemetry.

    I think the ideal, for a student that is committed, and to protect the instructor, would be:

    Follow w/ walkie talkies + telemetry after.

    One thing I will mention also in case people are really trying to make this happen is that walkie talkies are damn hard to hear even with some OE "sport" exhausts with a helmet on. Perhaps it is a radio tied into a helmet communicator of some sort vs just a walkie talkie in the cabin.

    Good discussion; thanks for posting it.
     
  3. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

    Dec 12, 2005
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    For me - HPDE needs to be in a passangers seat - well protected. the more novice the more speed rules have to be applied.

    I also think the driver and passenger need to be connected using a communicator mic and ear piece so you can CLEARLY hear each other.

    At road Atlanta It's always confused me why clubs dont have basic skills assesments and training either on the other paddock or using the skid bad betwen 6&7... for novices learning when the car will start to under or over steer is critical, hard braking and how much is too much is also something best learned NOT on Track.... just simply taking each AM for the novice group to go through simple car control skills - then followed up on track with a passenger instructor is a great way to get real skills.

    I've seen too many " intermediate" guys who dont have any basics, while fast - they are dangerous to me and others....
     
  4. Schatten

    Schatten F1 World Champ
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    Apr 3, 2001
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    Agreed. Have been instructing for too many years. Basics need to be taught and seen from the passenger seat, even intermediate drivers. Data shows so much. Walkie-talkies do not work efficiently, nor does lead-follow. Lead follow only shoes so much. Attitude of the car, smoothness, seating position, moving your hands around too much, not looking for the corner workers (which takes time for novice), all too many items on this list that cannot be done in lead follow situations.

    Passenger seat instructing is a risk and as an instructor, you have the ability to turn down situations at tracks where you feel unsafe and walk away from students who you feel are unsafe (alerting the organizers).
     
  5. Heat Seeker WS6

    Heat Seeker WS6 Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
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    I instruct HPDE's at Road America from the passenger seat. Before we set out, I spend time with my driver before and after their driver's meeting and find out all I can about the car- modded/stock? I also find out what what all they've done as far as tracking goes and what they expect out of this event. I find establishing rapport is very important as they instill trust in me and what I have to say. We go over the track map, where corner worker stations are, flags and how to work with traffic that we may encounter. I use a wired helmet to helmet headset so we can communicate easily and be heard the first time and not have to shout over the wind & engine noise. Sometimes there just isn't time to repeat yourself. I don't use my hands since I want the driver to keep their eyes where they should be. The first laps of the first session are conservative -I talk them through the line, point out landmarks for braking, turn in, workers & etc. Over time we gradually gain speed but the focus is technique and being consistent in where we are on track. After our sessions, we have a download sessions where we talk about things we liked, areas of improvement and what we're going to do next session. I make it a point to my drivers that i call the shots and they need to trust me. I also make it clear that I am empowered to call their session if things start to get out of control and with that there is a risk of an early end to the day with no refund if things get too far out of hand or if rules aren't followed. I stress to them that this isn't a race and we WILL be bringing the car and everyone home in one piece if we stay on the level with each other. In my 15+ years of HPDE instructing I've never been in a student's car that has gone off track or hit anything and some of the guys I still keep in contact with. Its very rewarding seeing a big *****eating grin on a driver after a successful & fun weekend. In a past life I also founded/organized an HPDE there and have seen every facet of those events...there is so much risk & danger, but- it can somewhat be equalized with anticipation, knowledge, experience, great co-instructors and tons of planning.
     
  6. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    anyone else notice this. novice groups have long trains without passing which makes no sense because novices have instructors in passenger seat. don't get it but see it every time. why don't instructors have students give point bys?
     
  7. Heat Seeker WS6

    Heat Seeker WS6 Formula 3

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    We give point by's on the straights even in novice classes. But we also have long enough straights to 'dispatch' traffic :)
     
  8. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Good point about the skidpad. I'm always surprised that more tracks don't push this and/or advertise/offer skidpad events. Personally, the skidpad is an absolute blast, but you get a lot of guys with high HP cars that have never been on one.

    In the feedback section for my local track I actually suggested they start doing skidpad days as an event. We'll see if they listen.
     
  9. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    I think its extreemly helpful to understand when your car starts to rotate, beyond what you are wanting it to do. skid pad is much better place to do that. it only takes about a hour to really start to find when your car is goign to "let go" - its a muscle memory if you like - so when you start to feel that on the track... you are much better prepared to handle it.

    as for the long line of Novice guys - I'm ok with that, and I blame the instructor - they need to ensure everyone keeps a proper gap so that you are not always having to look in the mirror.

    nobody teaches warm up laps - getting the tires warm - check pressures etc... most of the time its just - get in - GO!.... which to me is dangerous... in a 600HP Ferrari its leathal.

    The one think I know for sure is big Wallets and skill DO NOT go togehter much.
     
  10. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    I don't personally know anyone with the ability to use telemetry for HPDE, but it would be great if it became affordable. Pretty much pro and space program stuff, although I had read some start-ups that were using cell or wifi for the data transmissions piece.

    Like this:

    https://www.race-capture.com/

    anyone actually use it?
     
  11. Heat Seeker WS6

    Heat Seeker WS6 Formula 3

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    I know a few guys using the AIM Solo for after-the-fact analysis but not sure how far they actually read into the data.

    AiM Sports - The World Leader in Data Acquisition
     
  12. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
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    I'll be using AIM+gopro over the next 4 months or so to analyze my performance. I'll try to post up my experience using it as a novice. The solo is not overly expensive, but the more advanced units let you tie into OBD2 to overlay data from the car - like throttle and brake which is very nice for street cars.
     
  13. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    anyone using the built in telemetry on cars like gt3, z06, speciale, etc?
     
  14. timba

    timba Formula Junior

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    #14 timba, Oct 26, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
    How's $30 for affordable? Another $100 if you want to add OBD for RPM and Throttle position.

    Harry's Lap Timer
    Home - Harry's GPS Laptimer
     
  15. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    Does Harrys work for android or just iphone?
     
  16. EnzymaticRacer

    EnzymaticRacer F1 Veteran

    Feb 27, 2005
    5,367
    Well I can discuss one specific reason for this happening.


    I was instructing with NASA @ SUmmit point one weekend and had multiple students.

    One of my students had been placed in the intermediate group as he had done a few events with other clubs. After talking to him about the differences between how NASA ran the intermediate group and the other clubs and proper procedures for passing/being passed/etc he was confident he was aware of the differences.

    During his first session out, he was slower than basically everyone else in the group (kinda hard not to be in a Series 2 Mazda RX-7), so passing was never a concern.

    However, I could tell in my mirror that a number of cars were constantly behind us.

    Turns out that because of my position in the passenger seat compared to his body, it was impossible for me to see that no one was passing him because he was basically just hanging his left hand out the window and flailing it about expecting the people behind him to know what that meant. Their instructors were correctly telling their students not to pass us.

    Ultimately, because of that and a number other concerns on our first round out, I bumped him back to the novice group, and was therefore able to get the classroom instruction that was lacking.
     
  17. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    ProCoach does not ride in the Right seat.

    No one at Skip Barber rides in the right seat, according to the Pro coach we hired in 2014 to prep for the SCCA Runoffs.

    Since Sean Edwards death in 2013 Pros in the right seat are going the way of the dinosaur.

    Long before the craze of streetcars on tracks there were a million single seater cars with no right seat and all those drivers learned to drive just fine.
     
  18. 95spiderman

    95spiderman F1 World Champ
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    But this is about hpde and street cars on track driven by people not necessarily interested in actual racing. Totally different group than scca
     
  19. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    So this is a classic situation where video and data would have done just as well as you in the right seat. In that situation active corner workers should show your student the blue flag. As instructor you would tell your student to give his point-by loud and proud and problem is solved and student learned something right there. OTOH, instructors behind could have taught their students to exit the track into the hotpit and give the classic signal for more room and be immediately sent back out for more favorable track position. A student would have learned again but that student probably just learned to be frustrated with traffic. So having an instructor in the right seat does not mean it is the best way or only way to learn.

    I have no dog in this hunt. I'm a racer not HPDE'er and I don't have any desire to instruct. I think amateur instructors fail to realize the risk they take in the right seat. In 2015 there are better ways to be teach. I'm old enough to once have an instructor in the right seat and young enough to continually try to improve and use data and procoaches who use data and video. The latter is way is less than the cost of tires, safe for the instructor, and the student comes away with hard data and video that act as his notes for a later date. You can't take notes while you are driving.
     
  20. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
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    I tried trackmaster, works well with a stand alone high rate GPS unit (~$100) and any decent quad core android phone. Unfortunately, my car immolated itself before I could get any data at the last track day. It also has obdII input, but my car is obd1 so not useful to me. If you add that it's another $50 ish for the obd2 BT unit, so for under $200 plus a decent phone you can have decent telemetry that can be beamed via cell to the internet. There's even the ability to track the car and stats via web browser. It won't stream the video to the internet, but you can at least track the location and stats of the car and then watch video after the run.

    As to the topic, it probably is heavily dependent on the instructor and/or student...
     
  21. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Actually it is the same thing. We all race or drive on the same track. Vehicle dynamics are the same racing or HPDE. Physics are the same when racers or HPDE 150mph corvette hits the wall. We use the same flags. In NASA's case the same cornerworkers for HPDE and racing. The rules are the same. Being predictable, situational awareness, etc all the same. Most HPDE red groups are open passing simulated race environment. Those red groups are very close to wheel to wheel. SCCA might be considered pretty aggressive where rubbing is racing but in Vintage racing it is 13/13 non-contact racing with respect or so they say (I don't do vintage). If so vintage racing is even closer to Red Group HPDE.
     
  22. Entropy

    Entropy Formula 3
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    Jul 10, 2008
    2,149
    some thoughts and ideas - a bit "hybrid"

    1) it would be IDEAL if "we" (TBD) could develop a simple but effective online program to provide the classroom concepts plus more, for students or drivers to review and digest before coming to the track, including a little quiz. My experience is that typical at-track "classroom" content delivery (and absorption) is compromised by everything from long-winded instructors to student distraction to keeping the day's schedule. Vehicle dynamics, the driving line, pedal techniques, etc. (this is an approach that significantly changed the scuba diving training industry for the better - happier students, more effective programs, better risk management)

    2) I'd allow instructors in right seats in specific circumstances - eg. true novice groups, with aggressive speed limits; fully tech'd cars; on a wet skidpad for car control practice (oh, yeah, most groups don't use, or can't access, the best way to teach car control).

    3) The use of video (goPro) and simple data loggers can be expanded; I'd start with video and a structured review and debrief after sessions.

    4) use of radios (even with the cheap Chatterbox type slip-in headsets) would increase communications quality. If so equipped, if there are 8 cars on track, theoretically you could deploy the 8 non-riding instructors to corners to observe and provide active coaching. (in my experience, MOST "incidents" are built up to, you can see them coming 2-3-4 laps before- which is when they can get caught and corrected. Of course, sometimes there is just a one-off). I was testing a prototype at a new-to-me track, and the engineer/coach radio'd me and said "if you keep doing that, 5mph faster and you will spin off in T5 into the fence". Learning moment.

    5)I would consider adopting speed zones at high risk points on the track in the less skilled groups (note, I did not say experienced....).

    6) last, I do believe if someone wants to take their 800hp customized Viper on track and just haul ass, it's a free country. If a "pro" wants to ride with them, that's their call. However I do think we need to shift the culture and environment such that that becomes the "exception". The issue is when their decisions impact others.

    7) I have no facts but opinions, that at most DE events, the corner workers likely see many of these sins (dangerous driving, bad passing) much moreso than the instructors.

    8) I am also a realist. Fast cars, race track, human drivers, immovable objects - stuff WILL happen. I'd love to mandate "race prepped cars", but I also know people love to exercise their cars. I guess I've just seen enough (and had enough 50g+ hits) to rarely, if ever, "push" a street car near the limits anymore. My HANS device has become my "courage"

    I taught very advanced SCUBA and tech diving in the Pacific for a long time. We'd "dive along" for most of the beginner (mandatory) and intermediate programs, as we were literally the "rescue team". However, if someone got in trouble, by definition we were in worse trouble. The standards of skill to advance to more "serious" diving were pretty strict and closely evaluated, and as instructors the sanctioning organizations compelled us to be liberal teachers and big cheerleaders, but rigid evaluators. Perhaps some lessons to be learned.
     
  23. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    Agreed. No one size fits all.

    Not true, PSDS and SBRS (now Roos) uses data (telemetry is remotely accessed data) and video.

    AWESOME topic!

    BINGO! Pro schools ALWAYS start with this.

    Agreed. Good discussion outside of the car, BEFORE in-car...

    Not true. Never been easier to do this simple video and data review. RCP is very good...

    You don't NEED to go into it too deeply. One or two simple measure reviews (speed versus distance and braking/acceleration versus distance) can impart the foundation of understanding better than yelling in someone's ear at 150 mph! Video is the best tool...

    Absolutely, the new Cosworth system on the Vette is fantastic. The BMW M App and Porsche Precession Driving App are great, WAY better than HLT.

    Both.

    Absolutely NOT! Driving fundamentals are driving fundamentals... No one is talking about racing, they're talking about DRIVING well, knowledgeably and safely. More knowledge=more safety.

    ^^THIS^^
     
  24. singletrack

    singletrack F1 Veteran

    Mar 16, 2011
    5,767
    Pittsburgh, PA
    FYI - SBRS does not use the cameras and throttle/brake overlay anymore. You won't see it on any videos within the past couple years. You only get lap times, average time, average speed, best lap, and diff to the leader to my knowledge - and only on practice/qualy/race days; not at schools. All of the guys in the series run AIMs + gopros now and use race studio to analyze. Not sure why they did away with the other system - maybe a maintenance nightmare? Were you ever able to download the actual data and analyze it? I never got to use the old system.

    The cars have transponders on them so I guess you could still access the data, but I'm not aware of a way to do so. Just asked one of my instructors to see if I'm ignorant : )
     
  25. ProCoach

    ProCoach F1 Veteran
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    I was talking about the extra cost "data car" programs at SBRS. The MX-5's had SmartyCam's on them with speed, g's lap times for a long time.
     

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