Go Back   FerrariChat.com > Racing & Tracking > Tracking & Driver Education

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 05-08-2017, 07:00 PM
Need4Spd's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 4,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by gw32 View Post
No way was I on the brake and accelerator at the same time. My feet aren't that big. Some sort of problem with the electronics seems to make the most sense. The only possible mechanical issue is that the car seems to require a lot of pedal pressure to stop and I was never able to activate ABS even though I tried several times to do so going into turn 7. Another poster mentioned a possible problem with air in the brake lines if they were improperly bled.
OK, so we've ruled out simultaneous activation of pedals.

You didn't mention that the pedal felt spongy, so air in the lines seems unlikely. Maybe there is a fault in the ABS pump.

This is perplexing!
Reply With Quote
Non-Sponsor Ads
  #22  
Old 05-08-2017, 09:11 PM
Rookie
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 22
What about a coolant leak? Is it possible coolant could have leaked from my car so that the rear tires lost grip after going over leaked coolant, or the tires could have somehow got coolant on them. This is my first Ferrari so I don't know anything about the cars mechanical layout details like location of the coolant system components. A friend of mine had an oil leak in his 911 race car front bumper oil radiator. It leaked and cause him to spin. I forgot what corner but in was at Thunder Hill. The carousel at Sonoma is a relatively steep left hand corner almost 180 degrees downhill. If there was a leak in front of the rear tires, that could have been the cause. I did see an odd spot after I moved the car out of the garage. About 3 in. in diameter under the right front of the car.

Not sure its relevant but I did run over something three weeks ago on my first drive. Heard a loud bang. Could something have gotten damaged? I would think the underside is sealed but maybe not. I did ask the tech to check for damage but he could have missed something.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:23 AM
Need4Spd's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 4,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by gw32 View Post
What about a coolant leak? Is it possible coolant could have leaked from my car so that the rear tires lost grip after going over leaked coolant, or the tires could have somehow got coolant on them. This is my first Ferrari so I don't know anything about the cars mechanical layout details like location of the coolant system components. A friend of mine had an oil leak in his 911 race car front bumper oil radiator. It leaked and cause him to spin. I forgot what corner but in was at Thunder Hill. The carousel at Sonoma is a relatively steep left hand corner almost 180 degrees downhill. If there was a leak in front of the rear tires, that could have been the cause. I did see an odd spot after I moved the car out of the garage. About 3 in. in diameter under the right front of the car.

Not sure its relevant but I did run over something three weeks ago on my first drive. Heard a loud bang. Could something have gotten damaged? I would think the underside is sealed but maybe not. I did ask the tech to check for damage but he could have missed something.
I suppose it's possible. The radiators are mounted in the front and lines convey coolant to the mid-rear mounted engine. But did cars behind you get sideways, too? Corner marshals are usually good at spotting coolant on the track and they will shut down the track to clean it up, as it's very slippery. I take it none of that happened?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:30 AM
Entropy's Avatar
Formula 3
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by gw32 View Post
The only possible mechanical issue is that the car seems to require a lot of pedal pressure to stop and I was never able to activate ABS even though I tried several times to do so going into turn 7. Another poster mentioned a possible problem with air in the brake lines if they were improperly bled.
In the 430 and 458, "in general" with the brakes, they will work well if

1) bedded properly
2) not glazed
3) bled properly
4) booster, et al, functioning properly

When working properly, they still need heat, and, IMHO, require comparatively more pedal pressure than other cars and less than great modulation feel. Last, initial bite sometimes is less than some might like and "light braking" tends not to work too well for stopping.

While you may have some brake issues (I will bet pads, bedding or glazing), I'd bet $50 that the spin was not electronically induced. From your description, you were under control, under moderate throttle, wheel coming back to center, low side loads...that would keep the system below the trigger thresholds for interventions. A variable could be the e-Diff, but again the e-Diff really kicks in on hard exits. Typically the way the software is developed, if the system detects any issue ("value not plausible") it will shut itself off and you'll see a warning light.

The 430 will store fault codes, so you can see those, but it does not log data, so you won't be able to really see what happened with the data per se.
__________________
I'm just glad to be here....
Reply With Quote
Non-Sponsor Ads
  #25  
Old 05-09-2017, 11:51 AM
Rookie
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
In the 430 and 458, "in general" with the brakes, they will work well if

1) bedded properly
2) not glazed
3) bled properly
4) booster, et al, functioning properly

When working properly, they still need heat, and, IMHO, require comparatively more pedal pressure than other cars and less than great modulation feel. Last, initial bite sometimes is less than some might like and "light braking" tends not to work too well for stopping.

While you may have some brake issues (I will bet pads, bedding or glazing), I'd bet $50 that the spin was not electronically induced. From your description, you were under control, under moderate throttle, wheel coming back to center, low side loads...that would keep the system below the trigger thresholds for interventions. A variable could be the e-Diff, but again the e-Diff really kicks in on hard exits. Typically the way the software is developed, if the system detects any issue ("value not plausible") it will shut itself off and you'll see a warning light.

The 430 will store fault codes, so you can see those, but it does not log data, so you won't be able to really see what happened with the data per se.
Thanks for the commentary on the brakes. That helps a lot. To me, relative to Porches, which is all I am familiar with on track, the brake don't have good initial bit and require lots more pedal pressure, especially for a street car. I didn't try modulation, but given how they feel probably don't allow for modulation. After coming in from my first session I noticed the brake were definitely hot so that isn't the issue.

I don't think this car had been driven hard. There was 75% remaining on the clutch and 80% on the brakes with 13 K miles. The tech thought they were original. So, would the pads have been replaced or could they be original as well? I didn't see any mention of pads on the invoices I received. So wouldn't that eliminate bedding and glazing issues? A brake fluid change and I assume a bleed was on the service records and I had that done as well 3 weeks ago. I also had the pads removed cleaned and inspected. Tech didn't see anything wrong (20 yr. Ferrari dealership tech). Are there better pads for the track that I should use?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:14 PM
Entropy's Avatar
Formula 3
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by gw32 View Post
Thanks for the commentary on the brakes. That helps a lot. To me, relative to Porches, which is all I am familiar with on track, the brake don't have good initial bit and require lots more pedal pressure, especially for a street car. I didn't try modulation, but given how they feel probably don't allow for modulation. After coming in from my first session I noticed the brake were definitely hot so that isn't the issue.

I don't think this car had been driven hard. There was 75% remaining on the clutch and 80% on the brakes with 13 K miles. The tech thought they were original. So, would the pads have been replaced or could they be original as well? I didn't see any mention of pads on the invoices I received. So wouldn't that eliminate bedding and glazing issues? A brake fluid change and I assume a bleed was on the service records and I had that done as well 3 weeks ago. I also had the pads removed cleaned and inspected. Tech didn't see anything wrong (20 yr. Ferrari dealership tech). Are there better pads for the track that I should use?
pure guess but would imagine the pads are original. question is were they ever bedded, but if you drove more than a session on track they likely are; the other thing to check is for glazing but that's a visual check.

there ARE more aggressive track pads, I'm unsure which most folks prefer....Challenge spec pads are very aggressive, which also means your rotors will wear faster.
__________________
I'm just glad to be here....
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-09-2017, 08:04 PM
Need4Spd's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Silicon Valley
Posts: 4,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
I'd bet $50 that the spin was not electronically induced. From your description, you were under control, under moderate throttle, wheel coming back to center, low side loads...that would keep the system below the trigger thresholds for interventions. A variable could be the e-Diff, but again the e-Diff really kicks in on hard exits. Typically the way the software is developed, if the system detects any issue ("value not plausible") it will shut itself off and you'll see a warning light.

The 430 will store fault codes, so you can see those, but it does not log data, so you won't be able to really see what happened with the data per se.
What you describe is when the systems work *properly*. What happened to the OP is not normal, and the hypothesis is that they malfunctioned. Since these systems *could* possibly 1) apply rear braking; and/or 2) apply locking to the e-diff, the hypothesis is that a malfunction in either or both systems *could* possibly cause what happened. That's all. Just a hypothesis. It will be interesting to see what if anything is found by tech inspection that actually is wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-10-2017, 04:40 PM
singletrack's Avatar
F1 Veteran
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 5,628
My Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by gw32 View Post
Thanks for the commentary on the brakes. That helps a lot. To me, relative to Porches, which is all I am familiar with on track, the brake don't have good initial bit and require lots more pedal pressure, especially for a street car. I didn't try modulation, but given how they feel probably don't allow for modulation. After coming in from my first session I noticed the brake were definitely hot so that isn't the issue.

I don't think this car had been driven hard. There was 75% remaining on the clutch and 80% on the brakes with 13 K miles. The tech thought they were original. So, would the pads have been replaced or could they be original as well? I didn't see any mention of pads on the invoices I received. So wouldn't that eliminate bedding and glazing issues? A brake fluid change and I assume a bleed was on the service records and I had that done as well 3 weeks ago. I also had the pads removed cleaned and inspected. Tech didn't see anything wrong (20 yr. Ferrari dealership tech). Are there better pads for the track that I should use?
I have a number of threads on pads in the 430 section if you search. I run Pagid RSC's and am happy with them. I think Pagid might have additional options now as well.

On the issue - assuming it was the car and not you (I have no idea)...one thing that comes to mind is the e-diff overheating. I've never run my car in sport at the track, but have heard that the e-diff can overheat if you do so and are aggressive on throttle coming out of turns. The codes should be stored as others have mentioned, so hopefully you get it figured out.

Good luck!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-11-2017, 10:36 AM
Rookie
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by singletrack View Post
I have a number of threads on pads in the 430 section if you search. I run Pagid RSC's and am happy with them. I think Pagid might have additional options now as well.

On the issue - assuming it was the car and not you (I have no idea)...one thing that comes to mind is the e-diff overheating. I've never run my car in sport at the track, but have heard that the e-diff can overheat if you do so and are aggressive on throttle coming out of turns. The codes should be stored as others have mentioned, so hopefully you get it figured out.

Good luck!
Thanks for the info on pads, I will probably try Pagid's.
Picking the car up this morning. I'll get a debrief then. Sounds like they found a faulty sensor but they don't know if that was the cause. I'll post more later today.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-12-2017, 06:43 AM
ProCoach's Avatar
F1 Veteran
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: VIR Raceway
Full Name: Peter
Posts: 5,431
My Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
In the 430 and 458, "in general" with the brakes, they will work well if

1) bedded properly
2) not glazed
3) bled properly
4) booster, et al, functioning properly

The 430 will store fault codes, so you can see those, but it does not log data, so you won't be able to really see what happened with the data per se.
There are inexpensive loggers that record wheels speeds, and with the comparison between them, longitudinal g and brake pressure, you can gauge braking efficiency. And see what went wrong...
__________________
-Peter
www.peterkrause.net
Driver Performance Analyst, Consulting and Tuition in the Art and Science of Going Fast!
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 05-12-2017, 06:42 PM
raider1968's Avatar
F1 Rookie
Rossa Subscribed
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NC Mnts & Asheville
Full Name: John E
Posts: 3,757
My Garage
Running like that you should at least have the car in track
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-16-2017, 10:45 PM
Rookie
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Oakland, CA
Full Name: Robert Fulton
Posts: 7
Any clues from shop?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gw32 View Post
Thanks for the info on pads, I will probably try Pagid's.
Picking the car up this morning. I'll get a debrief then. Sounds like they found a faulty sensor but they don't know if that was the cause. I'll post more later today.
Have you heard anything definitive (or even speculative from the shop?
Reply With Quote
Non-Sponsor Ads
  #33  
Old 05-18-2017, 10:09 PM
F1 Veteran
Silver Subscribed
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: ny
Posts: 6,391
Tonight I was just looking at an awesome scud and thinking how great it would be as next track/street toy. But then I read this how op doesn't want to track it after only 1 day. Fear of damage, break down, etc might also be too much for me to enjoy it the way I want to. Sticking with what I have for now
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-19-2017, 02:41 AM
Formula Junior
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 462
Quote:
Originally Posted by gw32 View Post
I would appreciate any input on a very strange experience I had this morning at Sonoma Raceway. While going to full throttle about 100 yards pass the apex for turn 6 (the carrousel), the car abruptly spun. It was as if I hit a patch of oil and slammed on the brakes. There was no warning and no traction control activation. This was the first lap of the second session and I was easing into the throttle, probably doing 75-80 mph at the time of the spin. I did a 360+ spin and was able to continue back to the pits. It was as if all 4 tires were locked upÖ.. lots of smoke. I didnít even get a chance to use the brakes before sliding to a stop.
The red BRAKE light was on, the amber warning light with a diagonal line through CTS came on and code F1-S indicated. These dash waning lights did not come back on after turning the car off and on again. The car was in Sport mode. I just bought the car 3 weeks and 500 miles ago. I had a PPI done and a service.
The manual states: BRAKE Warning: Caution: Danger of rear wheels locking due to malfunction of the electronic brake-force distribution system and possibility of spinning". NO ****!
I called it quits and drove the car home after the spin. Nothing seemed out of sorts on the drive home.
Since acquiring the car the brakes have felt odd and make a scraping noise when coming to a stop. I took in back to the same service tech and they dismantled and cleaned the brakes, saying there was nothing wrong with them. The same noise remained. Unrelated to this track event, the car seems difficult to stop (before and after the track event), requiring an unusual amount of pedal pressure, almost as if the brakes are unassisted and never seem to get a good Ďsetí for lack of better term. This is my first Ferrari and my first car with ceramic brakes. That said, I have been racing a Porsche at Sonoma for the pass 10 yrs. with NASA and PCA.
Iím having the car trailered back to the service tech tomorrow but thought I would see if anyone has any ideas on whats wrong with the car. Thanks
It's a good thing you didn't get hurt.

I think I would find some way to bypass the ABS system, or install a completely different set of brakes, and a manual bias adjustment. The simpler the system, the less likely for something to go wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:51 PM
Rookie
Not Subscribed
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert_fulton View Post
Have you heard anything definitive (or even speculative from the shop?
The shop I took it to last week could not find anything wrong so I took it to a Ferrari dealer and got a report back yesterday afternoon that one of the front brake calipers was making an unusually creaking sound. They said this is very suspicious and recommended taking the caliper off the car, inspecting and doing a bench bleed. This will be done on Monday.

The first shop tech suggested it could be a problem with the manatino selector but didn't know how to go about inspecting/diagnosing the manatino.

I've talk to several people that track Ferrari's at Sonoma and everyone says there is no reason why the car would spin were it did while in sport mode other than some sort of car problem. I really hope they find something as I don't know what I'll do if they don't.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:59 PM.


FerrariChat.com has no association with Ferrari S.p.A.
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.