0012M | FerrariChat

0012M

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by tongascrew, Aug 3, 2007.

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  1. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
    2,989
    tewksbury
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    george burgess
    who can fill me in on this car. the barchetta post i think is almost totally incorect. all the entries regarding vallone in 1949 seem to belong to 008 and the body modification to enveloping wing did not take place until after vallone, probably in 1950. what happened during 1950? i am assuming the two "red arrows" references are correct. the emilio romano and eifelrenen entries seem questionable and i can find nothing to confirm the 1957-1988 data.is the car pictured actually 0012? it appears to be a short chassis version iof the regular 166 cigar shape cars. i have a number of reference to 0012 shown in the F2 and sports car race results for 1949 but none involve vellone. i have yet to search the 1950 race results to see if this car appears. how about it guys and girls. who has the lowdown on this car. george tongascrew
     
  2. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,741
    See fully detailed history in "Cavallino" magazine, issue #133 of February/March 2003.
    Marcel Massini
     
  3. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Michael Muller
    #3 Michael Muller, Aug 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    008I had these enveloping wings already from the beginning, see below photo #1 showing Raymond Sommer at Naples on 10 Sep 1948 (behind Besana's 002C) when it was still a works car.

    The same wings also on 14 Nov 1948 at the Vermicino - Rocca di Papa Hill Climb (photo #2), where Roberto Vallone had his first ride in the car (still owned by Ferrari). Vallone then decided to buy it.

    Over the winter 008I received a new nose as did most of the Spyder Corsas, as shown on photo #3 taken at the Mille Miglia on 23/24 April 1949 (Vallone / Sighinolfi, Scuderia Lazio).

    Vallone abandoned the car at the end of the season when he received his new singleseater Ferrari. No idea what happened during 1950, but in 1951 it was owned by Emilio Romano. The entry at the 15th Intern. ADAC Eifelrennen at the Nürburgring on 3 June 1951 is confirmed by photos #4 and #5.

    I am not convinced that 008I was renumbered to 0012M when sold to Vallone, simply because there was no reason for that. Vallone tested the car at Vermicino and he knew exactly what he was getting. The nose was new, but the rest of the car was unchanged, possibly Vallone could spot even his cigarette ash he dropped on the floor pan at Vermicino.

    008I was a SWB version of the 166 Inter SC, most probably with 2250 mm wheelbase and therefore rather close to the 2200 of the 166 MM. Also the rear suspension was completely different to that of the LWB SCs and in fact identical with that of the MM.

    There are various parallel entries in 1949 for 008I and 0012M, however, I don't know how trustworthy the data for 0012M are.
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  4. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Michael Muller
    #4 Michael Muller, Aug 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. Sire Bruno de Losckley

    Aug 1, 2006
    1,262
    thank for pics.
    please what result in race of Coppa Gallenga, Vermicino-Rocca di Papa Roberto Vallone, 166 Spider Corsa
     
  6. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Michael Muller
    2nd (behind Bracco in a similar car)
     
  7. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    george burgess
    great pics. thanks so much. the best thing about this thread though is the post from marcel massini. it is wonderful to have him back participating in ferrarichat!!! i will get out cavalluino 133 this afternoon. i am assuming that you[marcel massini] can testify to the accuracy of the cavallion article. i appreciate that you are probably still reluctant to post any of your photographs of eather 0008 or 0012 but if you would like to we would love to see them and any other comments you may have about these two cars. you may also e-mail me at [email protected] and i can assure you i am not in the publishing business of any kind and anything i receive from you will remain in my files. again, it is great to hear from you. tongascrew george
     
  8. dretceterini

    dretceterini F1 Veteran

    Apr 28, 2004
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    ADAC Eifelrennen at the Nürburgring on 3 June 1951

    Anyone have the full entry list and results?
     
  9. pgrootswagers

    pgrootswagers Formula Junior

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    Peter Grootswagers
  10. JLDavier

    JLDavier Karting

    Mar 14, 2005
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    Easy and less restrictive, without password !

    All drivers, all cars but without serial number for the ferraris.

    http://wsrp.ic.cz/gerscc1951.html#2

    Creator and webmaster of the site, Martin Krejci, which all the data were "plundered" by a Ferrarichat visitor (the "old" ones still remember it)
     
  11. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    OK boys and girls. lets stir the pot. From what i have found only one SWB 166SC was built for the 1948 season which was #008. It was a factory car and probably painted blue as Sommer was the principle driver. In the formular2.net web the Sommer car in the Naples GP of sept 1948 is listed as a 166 SWB and in pirro.com Sommer is listed as the driver of 008I in a least six races in 1948. This is also stated in the John Starkey[ et al]book "ferrari fifty years on the track".Towards the end on 1848 Roberto Vallone wanted a faster car for 1949 and tested #008 in a hill climb event and arranged to buy the blue car car from Ferrari in early 1949.In the Cavallino #133 article about #0012 this Vallone car is described as being almost identical to the Sommer car including being both blue and a SWB 166.In the Starkey book #008 is listed as the car Vallone entered in eleven races during 1949 including the Mille Miglia and in " Rwd Arrows" the Vallone car is listed as #008. As "Red Arrows" is generally known to be pretty accurate, I am going to assume the car Vallone purchased from Ferrari was #008, not #0012 as is thought by some.Now, referring to "Ferrari, Tipo 166", the Anselmi edited book, no 166 #0012 is listed on page 149 as being built. Later in 1949 Vallon returned his car[008] to Ferrari and exchanged it,plus many lire, for a 125/166 Formular car. In September Ferrari sold the car, now painted red, to Cherubini who raced the car during 1950 and sold it later that year to Emelio Romano.Things are not clear now ,but at some point a Scagietti 'type" body was installed, a 250 GT engine installed and the car went to America. The owner sent the car over to Caarozzerio Nova Pinasienti in Padova to be restored to its original 166 SC cycle wing look. In the process of the restoration many traces of the original blue paint were found and noted. Now, four things stand out here and I do understand that accuracy can be difficult,[1]it appears no 166 #0012 was built in 1948/9[2]only one 166SC was built in 1948/9[3] the car referred to as #0012 seems to be the same car as #008 including the traces of blue paint and the SWB chassis,[4] the 1949 Vallone car was #008 per " Red Arrows". Here is my theory.#008 was the 1948 Sommer car, sold to Vallone as #008, changed to #0012 by Ferrari before being sold to Cherubini, the #008 carefully removed so that the car could be sold as new[not unusual at the time].So what does everyone think??? One other thing that came up during this investigation. there are pictures of another SWB cycle fender 166 #0072 out there. According to the Anselmi book two cars were built with this same number #0072, one a full Touring or Vignalli bodied car and the other the cycle fender car. The history on the first one is pretty clear. So what's the story on the other one???. Probably the cycle fender car but why and for whome was it built and where is it today??? I expect a S..T load of posts about all of this. george tongascrew
     
  12. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary

    Mar 2, 2005
    22,741
    It is Carrozzeria Nova Rinascente in Vigonza, a suburb of Padova, Italy. The shop is owned by Dino Cognolato since several decades. The Italian wording "Nova Rinascente" basically translates into "new born".

    Marcel Massini
     
  13. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Michael Muller
    2 SWB versions of the 166 Inter Spyder Corsa had been built in 1948, #008I and #014I. Both cars appeared for the first time at the Bari F2 race on 30 May 1948, so it is very likely that they had been assembled parallel. The wheelbase of #014I is 2250 mm, so we can expect that #008I had the same wheelbase.

    The blue color of #008I is nonsens, it was a works car and not driven exclusively by Sommer, but also by Nuvolari and later by Bruno Sterzi (when he dropped out from Scuderia Inter and left also his car with Troubetskoy). All entries had been by the Scuderia Ferrari, so why should there be a reason to paint the car blue? Also when owned by Vallone it was always entered either by Vallone himself or by (his) Scuderia Lazio.

    I cannot exclude that 008I had been renumbered to 0012M, however, such renumbering made no sense, because Vallone knew exactly what he was getting (despite the new nose), and also Nicola Cherubini knew quite well that is was Vallone's car, as nothing at all was changed. For me it is also not sure that Vallone returned 008I to Ferrari when he bought the monoposto, it is also possible that he sold the car directly to Cherubini.

    Vallone drove 008I at the 1949 Targa Florio, where my files show the 166 MM #0012M had been driven by Bracco. The same for the Mille Miglia – 008I for Vallone and 0012M for Taruffi, the Coppa d'Oro delle Dolomiti (008I for Vallone and 0012M for Cornacchia), and Pescara (008I for Vallone and 0012M for Cornacchia).

    If 008I indeed was renumbered to 0012M, which car was the 166 MM works car used by Bracco and Taruffi which then had been sold to Cornacchia?
     
  14. ERault

    ERault Karting

    Aug 8, 2007
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    Emmanuel RAULT
    Hello guys,

    I don't know if this is of any help (probably not...) but the following link http://sportscargt.com.sapo.pt/sumario.htm is supposed to show 008I racing at Vila Real on july 15 1951, driven by a local driver. It is said to be the car Romano raced on june 17 1951 at Boavista for the Grande Premio de Portugal. On july, Romano raced his Abarth, so could well have lent his Ferrari 166. So, is the car pictured 008I without its wings ? Should it be read 0012 M ?

    Do we know for sure there is not a 012I AND a 0012 M, which might maybe explain some confusion ?

    And while I am at it, any idea on which 166 MM barchetta Carini is driving at Vila Real ? (I can't read the registration on the picture)
     
  15. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

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    #16 Michael Muller, Aug 8, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  16. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    Michael Muller
    Should be a Marzotto car.
     
  17. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

    Jan 3, 2006
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    guess what. in the book"IISignor Touring"[Automobilia} on page 218 is listed #0012 as being bodied by Touring in 1949 and for whome?? None other than Roberto Vallone of Rome, Italy. There is no date during 1949 that this car was completed and i think we have established Vallone competed with #008 through much of 1949, but could have taken delivery of #0012 in late 1949. Or did he just order the car and change his mind to go with the 125/166 Formular car? In any case his involvement with the Formular car didn't last long so he could have still taken deliver of #0012 in late 1949. Maybe someone with more detailed info on Touring could get some info here.In any case there seems now to be a reasonable case for #0012 being built as a new car, not renumbered from #008. Just to confuse the issue "Red Arrows" lists #0012 being driven by Romano/Guadici in the M.M. in 1951 but the accompaning photo seems to show #008. Then in 1952 #008 is shown being driven by Guadicci/deBianno with a picture of the correct car with some minor modifications. Starkey[et al] confirms #008 being driven in both year's M.M. by the same teams as in "Red Arrows". Any ideas ??? the only other thing I would like to add is regarding the blue paint reportadly found on #008. Sommer drove at least six events in this car in 1948 and was always quite insistant that his cars be painted blue[French,you know].the factory could change colors on the cigar bodied cars virtually overnight, so i thinnk there may be a good possibility that #008 was blue at one point. Ok, lets hear from you. This is what Ferrarichat is all about. george tongascrew
     
  18. ERault

    ERault Karting

    Aug 8, 2007
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    Emmanuel RAULT
    Err, why indeed... I was under the wrong impression that the car pictured had light moto wings rather than the (ugly) envelopping front wings shown on the photos you posted above. The angle of the shot and the shadows tricked me, I guess.

    Regarding Carini's 166 MM, the Marzotto Bros. had 0034 M in 1951, but that one is not supposed to have an air intake on the bonnet according to Barchetta.cc
     
  19. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    The sources you use in my opinion are incorrect. Sommer drove 008I only twice, at Pescara and at Naples, both in sports car configuration. The sister car 014I he drove at Reims (in the supporting F2 race).
    And the blue color is - sorry for being so direct and frank - nonsense!
     
  20. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

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    Carini in 1951 drove for the Scuderia Marzotto regularly a tipo 166 F2, as far I know he didn't owned an own car.
    At that time 012I belonged to the Marzottos, which then had bodywork by Fontana which was very similar to the Touring barchetta. However, I don't think this was the Carini car at Vila Real.
     
  21. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    Feb 21, 2004
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    The Carini's Touring barchetta was 0004M...
     
  22. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    michael, i can only use the sourses i have regarding there cars. Marcel Massini suggested the Antoine Prunet article in Cavallino #133 regarding the blue paint on #0012. Both these people are well respected Ferrari historians and I am more than willing to consider there opinions. It is an arguement for #0012 being renumbered from #008. As for the 1948 races by Sommer in #008 my sources are Starkey et al in "Ferrari, Fifty Years on the Track" ,in the Classic Cars.com history of Ferrari chassis numbers and in the Barchetta web site.Sommer was one of the most important driver/owners Ferrari had in 1948. i can't locate my source for the blue paint but apparently #008 was painted blue at some point.Another interesting theory has come up regarding #008. I was talking with Steve Markowsky of RPM Motors in Vermont who has had #0086' the "Sicialian Cart" car' since 1999 and is slowly starting a restoration of the car back to the Marzotto bodied car.When I was looking at pictures of the car at RPM I noticed the unusual headers on the engine which look more like the ones on the early Formular cars and the chassis looked like a very early one. On mentioning #008 to Steve he said he had a theory that the chassis on the Sicilian Cart car could have originally been #008. The number stamped on the chassis is #008 and the 6 appears tilted and scratched in,not stamped. His theory is that Marzotto received the rolling chassis from Ferrari at about the same time that #008 was broken up. Ferrari "could have" ,"may have" rescued #008 from the infamous scrap heap, rebuilt the chassis, added a 6 to the number and sent i off to Marzotto. Ferrari was not to keen to have the Marzottos put another special body on one of his cars after the Egg and had been reluctant to give away another rolling chassis. But all things considered how could he really refuse the Marzottos anything. Steve was clear that this is only a theory but what an interesting one. Any comments. tongascrew
     
  23. Fontana

    Fontana Karting

    Dec 30, 2006
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    For the record, the #6 in 0086 is not scratched in but a indeed a stamp, it is just a little askew and not as deep. There are no other stampings on the chassis, there should be one near the rear spring shackle mount but the rear suspension is what team Marzotto often modified. I guess that I should see if there is a chance that the 6 covers up the numeral I
     
  24. Michael Muller

    Michael Muller Formula Junior

    Apr 28, 2004
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    @ tongascrew

    Please list the races resp. your sources believe #008I was raced by Sommer in 1948. I will comment then if possible with photos.
     

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