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  #1  
Old 07-01-2009, 05:25 PM
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Any idea on this 212 ?

Advertised in the August 1958 Quattroruote
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  #2  
Old 07-01-2009, 05:27 PM
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Here is the ad.
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  #3  
Old 07-01-2009, 11:57 PM
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0205EL.

Best wishes, Kare

Last edited by kare; 07-02-2009 at 12:03 AM.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kare View Post
0205EL.

Best wishes, Kare
Was 0205EL originally a 212 Inter Ghia coupe ?? I'm still wonder if it could not be one of the two 212 Inter Ghia cabriolet (with 0191EL) as I have never saw an old picture of 0205EL as a Ghia coupe.
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Aardy View Post
Was 0205EL originally a 212 Inter Ghia coupe ?? I'm still wonder if it could not be one of the two 212 Inter Ghia cabriolet (with 0191EL) as I have never saw an old picture of 0205EL as a Ghia coupe.
For me this is a tempting thought. It looks like the original body was chopped and converted into this weird spider. One thing that bugs me is the door; it looks like it was quickly cut down a little, but the location of the door handle does not match the doors seen on Ghia coupés... but it might match the convertibles. Therefore I would say yes, 0205EL may have started life as a Ghia convertible. Best wishes, Kare
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  #6  
Old 07-02-2009, 02:53 AM
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Thanks Kare and Aardy for the identity. Now 0205 EL was definitely a Ghia first sold to actress Vivi Gioi through Luigi Rovere but coupé or cabrio is not precised although Gerald Roush risked "coupe" in his FML, back in August 1986. Of course all the "s/n anoraks" followed.
Re Ghia "spyders", 0191 EL, a Rhd was first sold to Editoriale Domus' (before Quattroruote appeared) owner. It's obviously the first one. The second Ghia cabrio was Lhd and 0205 is a triffle early though not impossible...
By the way the Vignale coupé body here, coming from Mike Sparken's Aston DB3 and installed in the late 50s on 0196A was reinstalled on some Ghia chassis by DK Engineering but I forgot to note which one. Could it be 0205EL ?
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  #7  
Old 07-02-2009, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roland View Post
Could it be 0205EL ?
It is. Are you sure there was a LHD Ghia cabrio? Is there a picture? FWIW, 0205EL seems to have been a RHD from the start. Best wishes, Kare

Last edited by kare; 07-02-2009 at 03:10 AM.
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  #8  
Old 07-02-2009, 03:51 AM
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Kare you are right, I am wrong. Both Ghia cabs. were Rhd.

Photos:
- 0191EL, the Domus car, in Ferrari Album #1 page 38, 2 photos
- the Torino 52 car in my book page 57 (Photo Millanta)

I am not even sure which was the first ! And it is also possible that there was only one car, the Torino car being modified before its sales to Domus...
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roland View Post
Kare you are right, I am wrong. Both Ghia cabs. were Rhd.

Photos:
- 0191EL, the Domus car, in Ferrari Album #1 page 38, 2 photos
- the Torino 52 car in my book page 57 (Photo Millanta)

I am not even sure which was the first ! And it is also possible that there was only one car, the Torino car being modified before its sales to Domus...
I have great difficulties trying to estimate which pieces of information are realiable and which could be based on a confusion. I have hard time believing that 0191EL was first built as a RHD convertible then teared down and rebuilt as a LHD coupe. Why would anyone tear down a brand new car, when new frames were also being built all the time? Could it be possible that 0191EL was just delayed in production (being the first LHD built) and the two cabriolets were 0205EL and 0233EL instead?

It is also possible that 0191EL was teared down and the body reused on 0233EL. Timeframe would allow this.

What is actually known about the Domus car?

Best wishes, Kare

Last edited by kare; 07-02-2009 at 04:35 AM.
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  #10  
Old 07-02-2009, 05:23 AM
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Would not be logical to see :

- 0191EL as the first 212 Ghia convertible
- 0205EL as the second 212 Ghia convertible
- 0233EL as the Peron 212 Ghia Coupe

The coupe Peron was shown with s/n 0235EU at the 1952 Paris show. So, it must be originally numbered 0233EL. Don't know where this story of s/n 0191EL for Peron came from...
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  #11  
Old 07-02-2009, 10:33 AM
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I do agree that established believings are often disastrous and try to stay aside as much as possible.

MI 197153 is a fact from the photo of Ferrari Album #1. (Sorry I am also reluctant in infringing copyrights).

The attached PRA file tells more about the Domus "spyder"...

It is true also that 0233, the '52 Paris Show Ghia coupé surfaced in Argentina in the 70s restamped 0191EL but this is another story.

So now, isn't the modification of the "spyder" between the Turin Show (Millanta's pix in my book) and the sale to Domus conceivable ?

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Old 07-02-2009, 11:18 AM
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1953 spider

The for sale picture from 1953 shows a car that certainly does not look like anything I have seen as being "original" The only thing I can compare it to is one of the home built Marzotto cars. If this is a Ferrari it would appear to be "custom" body built on a rolling chassis and not an original Ghia body. If so which Ghia carozzeria buil this and for whome and when??? The ACI doccument indicated that 0191 is a spyder. My Italian is non existant but does the doccument indicate a Carozzeria etc? Maybe Tom can give us a translation of 197153. Also can we get more on the 0191 that showed up in South America. There appears to be a lot going on here and it would be nice to hear more even if it is only theory. just one man's opinion tongascrew
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:23 PM
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So, we must have :

- 0191EL : the dark colored 212 Inter Ghia convertible shown at the Geneva show in march 1952, then with "MI 197153" plates, and also at one time with "92 TT 3T" plates. Today lost or may be destroyed ?
- 0205EL : the yellow 212 Inter Ghia convertible shown at the Turin show in april 1952. Today our poor spyder now with ex-0196A and ex-Aston Martin Vignale coupe body.
- 0233EL : the yellow 212 Inter Ghia coupe shown at the Paris show in october 1952, later renumbered (?) 0191EL, possibly when 0191EL had been destroyed (?), today in USA.
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  #14  
Old 07-02-2009, 12:59 PM
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Aardy, No more problem with 0191 and 0233. But, re 0205, how do you verify the link between the Turin Show car and the "jeep" ? Back to the beginning ?
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roland View Post
Aardy, No more problem with 0191 and 0233. But, re 0205, how do you verify the link between the Turin Show car and the "jeep" ? Back to the beginning ?
I have all the Ghia coupes in pictures. I don't see why I would not have a pic of 0205EL with a coupe body if it was really a Ghia coupe.

The s/n 0205 seems to match with the date of the 1952 Turin show I think.

And the wreck of 0205EL before the recent rebody had something which made me think to a Ghia convertible (the windscreen especially).

But of course, I have no proof unfortunately...
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:42 PM
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Good shot. What can you show of the wreck of 0205 before the recent rebody ? I confess I inclined towards one of these awkward Ghia coupés (212 and 340) the Brits - specially Brooklands Motors - seemed to be fond of !
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Old 07-02-2009, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roland View Post
Good shot. What can you show of the wreck of 0205 before the recent rebody ? I confess I inclined towards one of these awkward Ghia coupés (212 and 340) the Brits - specially Brooklands Motors - seemed to be fond of !
Here is one pic here :

212 EL body offered, which car did it belong to?
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:20 PM
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Yes this http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...ghlight=0205EL is the jeep and the windscreen do reminds the Ghia cabrios. Of course it implies the Ghia cabrio exhibited at Geneva in March was 0191 but I have no pix of this one.
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  #19  
Old 07-03-2009, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardy View Post
The s/n 0205 seems to match with the date of the 1952 Turin show I think.

And the wreck of 0205EL before the recent rebody had something which made me think to a Ghia convertible (the windscreen especially).
I would expect 0205EL to have been completed sometime in March 1952, so it would be a very good candidate for Turin car.

Besides the wind screen & frame, the door also matches what I would expect a cabriolet door to look like after it was cut down a little. This is enough to convince me that the "jeep" really was built out of a Ghia cabriolet.

Best wishes, Kare
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  #20  
Old 07-03-2009, 03:31 AM
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I agree now that the jeep could be 0205 as you initially said.

Re these 2 Ghia 212 cabrios we would then have:

0191EL: Geneva '52 show > Mazzocchi (SrL Domus) > exp. to USA (?) via France (transit plate 92 TT 3T) > identity transfered to 0233EL in Argentina

0205EL: Turin '52 show > Luigi Rovere > Vivi Gioi > Mochi Zamperoli (jeep) > ? > in UK with Vignale body ex Aston ex 0196A.

Best wishes
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