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  #10281  
Old 05-24-2017, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tonykalil View Post
I think the logic is flawed here, to suggest that the siting of a chassis or a carnet, would be definitive proof that 0846 exists in DP003. Instead, this discussion might be best discussed in a "The (one and only) chassis at Sbarro's Debate Thread"

As we have all seen, the images of DP003 prove that the chassis is completely different to the vintage images of 0846. To suggest that 0846 was changed after the last original pictures were taken is purely speculative to keep the dream alive, and all who have followed this thread from the beginning know that the "story" keeps evolving to suit the evidence, rather than the evidence proving the theory.

Instead, the logical question that would support a confirmed siting of a chassis assumed to be 0846 at Sbarro's would be "Which one of David's other P4s recreations could be built with remains of 0846?" Because DP003 clearly was not.
I can think of approximately 10 theories about why the chassis was at Sbarros garage with that carnet but without information it is all pretty far fetched, one thing is certain though, only Piper connects the dots between the source of the chassis seen at Sbarro and the end use of it. Until he wishes to write memoirs or write a book about these cars, we will remain in the dark and that would be Pipers right to keep us so.
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  #10282  
Old 05-25-2017, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonykalil View Post
I think the logic is flawed here, to suggest that the siting of a chassis or a carnet, would be definitive proof that 0846 exists in DP003. Instead, this discussion might be best discussed in a "The (one and only) chassis at Sbarro's Debate Thread"

As we have all seen, the images of DP003 prove that the chassis is completely different to the vintage images of 0846. To suggest that 0846 was changed after the last original pictures were taken is purely speculative to keep the dream alive, and all who have followed this thread from the beginning know that the "story" keeps evolving to suit the evidence, rather than the evidence proving the theory.

Instead, the logical question that would support a confirmed siting of a chassis assumed to be 0846 at Sbarro's would be "Which one of David's other P4s recreations could be built with remains of 0846?" Because DP003 clearly was not.
Well said!
Nathan
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  #10283  
Old 05-25-2017, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tonykalil View Post
I think the logic is flawed here, to suggest that the siting of a chassis or a carnet, would be definitive proof that 0846 exists in DP003. Instead, this discussion might be best discussed in a "The (one and only) chassis at Sbarro's Debate Thread"

As we have all seen, the images of DP003 prove that the chassis is completely different to the vintage images of 0846. To suggest that 0846 was changed after the last original pictures were taken is purely speculative to keep the dream alive, and all who have followed this thread from the beginning know that the "story" keeps evolving to suit the evidence, rather than the evidence proving the theory.

Instead, the logical question that would support a confirmed siting of a chassis assumed to be 0846 at Sbarro's would be "Which one of David's other P4s recreations could be built with remains of 0846?" Because DP003 clearly was not.
I appreciate your concise argument.

The failure in the logic/argument you provided is that while what you stated is true... it is not the whole story.

MM has provided in writing that he saw a carnet with 0846 and he saw a frame.

He did not authenticate that the frame matched the carnet. He did not confirm the frame stamp and to the best of knowledge at that age, and to be perfectly honest I would need pictures as reference to see the difference, couldn't tell the difference between individual p cars frames whether it be a P3 or P4 or version of or perhaps even a replica.

I am not saying that this is what happened... but importing and exporting many many things including cars and parts and speaking to guys who were part of the import and export business back then... you put whatever you needed to put on the paperwork to get the item in or out with as little fuss or money as possible. In modern day times the importing of a custom made vehicle (replica) from overseas into the US for example would be rejected for noncompliance of USDOT and FMVSS rules... however if you meerly separate the engine and chassis it is no longer a car... and they are only parts... once you get passed customs you can marry them together. I do not practice this... and I hate that people do this... but people do this.... today... the crap they did back then... WOW... lets just say there is a reason there are so many rules and you have to post hefty bonds when importing and exporting now. I merely provide this to add a little context to the situation. Not as an outright explanation
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  #10284  
Old 05-25-2017, 12:34 PM
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This has nothing to do with 0846

Quote:
Originally Posted by technom3 View Post
I appreciate your concise argument.

The failure in the logic/argument you provided is that while what you stated is true... it is not the whole story.

MM has provided in writing that he saw a carnet with 0846 and he saw a frame.

He did not authenticate that the frame matched the carnet. He did not confirm the frame stamp and to the best of knowledge at that age, and to be perfectly honest I would need pictures as reference to see the difference, couldn't tell the difference between individual p cars frames whether it be a P3 or P4 or version of or perhaps even a replica.

I am not saying that this is what happened... but importing and exporting many many things including cars and parts and speaking to guys who were part of the import and export business back then... you put whatever you needed to put on the paperwork to get the item in or out with as little fuss or money as possible. In modern day times the importing of a custom made vehicle (replica) from overseas into the US for example would be rejected for noncompliance of USDOT and FMVSS rules... however if you meerly separate the engine and chassis it is no longer a car... and they are only parts... once you get passed customs you can marry them together. I do not practice this... and I hate that people do this... but people do this.... today... the crap they did back then... WOW... lets just say there is a reason there are so many rules and you have to post hefty bonds when importing and exporting now. I merely provide this to add a little context to the situation. Not as an outright explanation
You state that "It is not the whole story", when in fact, it is a completely different story.

This 0846 siting at Sbarro story has nothing to do with the DP003 story, as we have all seen that 0846 in its last historical photos before being scrapped is a completely different chassis to DP003. David Piper is the only link between the two, but since we can all see that the two chassis in question are completely unrelated, we can no longer include the Sbarro siting in the story of DP003.

The DP003 story is already complete: David Piper built, raced, and sold a replica P4 DP003. That is the whole story.

Mysteries surrounding historical sitings of 0846 do not magically attach themselves as footnotes to stories of other well known cars, especially once proven to be completely unrelated. The 0846 siting mystery is simply its own story that has many facets. I do find interest in this story, and that is why I suggest that it be discussed in a separate thread. Because discussing it here falsely leads unknowing readers to assume that it has something to do with DP003, which it clearly does not.
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  #10285  
Old 05-25-2017, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonykalil View Post
You state that "It is not the whole story", when in fact, it is a completely different story.

This 0846 siting at Sbarro story has nothing to do with the DP003 story, as we have all seen that 0846 in its last historical photos before being scrapped is a completely different chassis to DP003. David Piper is the only link between the two, but since we can all see that the two chassis in question are completely unrelated, we can no longer include the Sbarro siting in the story of DP003.

The DP003 story is already complete: David Piper built, raced, and sold a replica P4 DP003. That is the whole story.

Mysteries surrounding historical sitings of 0846 do not magically attach themselves as footnotes to stories of other well known cars, especially once proven to be completely unrelated. The 0846 siting mystery is simply its own story that has many facets. I do find interest in this story, and that is why I suggest that it be discussed in a separate thread. Because discussing it here falsely leads unknowing readers to assume that it has something to do with DP003, which it clearly does not.
To the point. Brilliant!
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  #10286  
Old 05-25-2017, 03:41 PM
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Is it just my imagination, or is this picture of 0856 showing the cobbled motor mounts like on 0846?

Perry
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File Type: jpg Ferrari P4 0856.jpg (55.6 KB, 1093 views)
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  #10287  
Old 05-27-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wrxmike View Post
MM put in writing ( on Fchat no less ) what he saw, but the comments currenlty attributed to Sbarro are just heresay until Sbarro puts them in writing himself.

MM has his crediblity at stake with anything he puts in writing, yet he willingly shared his observations on what he saw. No upside for MM at all, he wasn't involved with Piper / Sbarro at time, he was just an observer.
Agreed.

But Memory after 40 years is just one aspect. The other issue is that even a skilled medical student is in the first semester simply not able to make a proper diagnosis upon a lack of knowledge and experience. Dedicated youngsters are a delight and highly welcomed from most enthusiasts. Joining, educating and sharing yes. But inviting an eighteen years old to ‘examine’ some ultra-rare P4 chassis and its paperwork when heavy weights like Piper and Sbarro are around? Statements have to be considered in this light, because obviously no photos or other information is available, except some Sbarro report, Ferrari’s confirmation that 0846 is no more and that no trace of any ‘Cervan Corporation’ can be found. But again, all this has nothing to do with DP0003. It is a different frame and not connected to the late 0846 as we have all seen. But maybe this could be an input to the soon coming "The (one and only) chassis at Sbarro's Debate Thread" … ?
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  #10288  
Old 05-27-2017, 09:04 AM
lgs lgs is offline
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Originally Posted by GBTR6 View Post
Is it just my imagination, or is this picture of 0856 showing the cobbled motor mounts like on 0846?

Perry
Interesting, thanks! Some enlightenment maybe here:

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread
The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread
The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread
The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread
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  #10289  
Old 05-27-2017, 10:01 AM
lgs lgs is offline
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Originally Posted by GBTR6 View Post
Is it just my imagination, or is this picture of 0856 showing the cobbled motor mounts like on 0846?

Perry
The same picture in better quality here:

The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread
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  #10290  
Old 06-01-2017, 04:40 PM
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What 330 P4 was offered in December 1969 in Vienna, Austria?
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  #10291  
Old 06-02-2017, 12:48 PM
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Autocar 1967 & 1968
Motor Revue 1967 & 1968
Nothing on Mugello either
But it cant be because Classiche said: Mugello test did not happen.
No eventual use after Le Mans.
There is a new directior at Classiche: Luigino Barp
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  #10292  
Old 06-02-2017, 01:16 PM
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1977 Swiss sighting can now be "disconnected" from 0003 story.
Jim has pictures of a built car from Piper (1974)

What is left otherwise than a frame built by Cantelli?
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  #10293  
Old 06-13-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tomgt View Post
1977 Swiss sighting can now be "disconnected" from 0003 story.
Jim has pictures of a built car from Piper (1974)

What is left otherwise than a frame built by Cantelli?
also according to MM he said the paperwork said 08460 not 0846
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  #10294  
Old 06-14-2017, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by technom3 View Post
also according to MM he said the paperwork said 08460 not 0846
That is a third frame (but as we do not have photos it could be from another P car using ID 0846

0900 finished in 1979
0003 in 1974 as per Piper/Jims paperwork and photographic evidence.
1977 another frame + some body parts but this is not 0003
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  #10295  
Old 06-15-2017, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tomgt View Post
That is a third frame (but as we do not have photos it could be from another P car using ID 0846

0900 finished in 1979
0003 in 1974 as per Piper/Jims paperwork and photographic evidence.
1977 another frame + some body parts but this is not 0003
I agree that it is not 003
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  #10296  
Old 06-15-2017, 12:27 PM
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Jim, check this out 10,294 replies, and 586,157 views. Make a movie about this, I think it would be interesting, and you can write the ending, or just leave it open ended. You've made movies before why not this? I'll buy a ticket! And you already have the star....saw it at Amelia.

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  #10297  
Old 06-19-2017, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Juan-Manuel Fantango View Post
Jim, check this out 10,294 replies, and 586,157 views. Make a movie about this, I think it would be interesting, and you can write the ending, or just leave it open ended. You've made movies before why not this? I'll buy a ticket! And you already have the star....saw it at Amelia.

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hell id buy a ticket! Id love to see more and more footage of 0846 racing!
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LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4/423520-one-only-0846-debate-thread.html
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Ferrari - Forum du Cavallino This thread Refback 04-05-2016 05:44 PM
Forghieri speaks: Glickenhaus/Piper #0003 is NOT P3/4 0846. -  Gassing Station - PistonHeads This thread Refback 09-20-2015 08:14 PM


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