| Author | Message | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 542 Registered: 12-2002 |
Byron: I'll be interested to hear if your problem reoccurs. Strangely enough, my 348 has started perfectly on the key numerous times this afternoon and evening, since I had it apart. Usually the key switch is about 50% effective. Don't know quite what to make of that - is it possible that the connection at the gang plug wasn't clean and tight, and just unplugging/replugging improved the situation? It has always seemed curious how the "no-start" symptom seems so random. Your voltage/amperage readings are interesting, thanks for posting your findings. | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Intermediate Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 1204 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wow, Jeff... that's good investigating - I never thought about re-lubing it... maybe the fix is a temporary fix, but it works well, so I'll keep my fingers crossed that it will stay good! I'll keep you guys posted if things change. Thanks! | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 540 Registered: 12-2002 |
Sorry to be a "poopy pants" about this, but here is what I just found about the 348 ignition switch. I pulled the switch assembly out of the steering column, it's the only way to really see the pieces involved. The electrical portion of the switch attaches with two Phillips head screws to the back of the tumbler section. The electrical portion is completely rivited together, and spraying it with contact cleaner will have no effect on it at all, as far as I can see. It would be necessary to drill out the rivits, clean up any "glop" inside, file the contacts, relube it, and rivit it back together. It wouldn't be impossible, but it's more than I'm willing to tackle today, so I put it back together as is. In the picture, the tumbler is obviously in the lower right with the key in it, and the electrical portion is in the lower left. There are two tabs on the rotating section of the tumbler that engage with two slots on the rotating section of the electrical switch. The electrical contacts, which are causing the problem, are TOTALLY enclosed.  | ||
| Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member Username: Beachbum Post Number: 188 Registered: 9-2002 |
hey Byron, thanks for the update, if i ever have electrical problems im calling you, you should be a pro by now LOL | ||
| Erik R. K. Jonsson (Gamester)
Member Username: Gamester Post Number: 374 Registered: 11-2000 |
The electrical portion of the ignition switch(at least for the 308) is available from GT Car parts for ~120. Glad you found and posted the solution. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 539 Registered: 12-2002 |
But....I agree that the problem is most likely in the ignition switch, but are you really cleaning the electrical contacts by spraying into the key slot? Seems to me that you are simply removing the grease from inside the tumblers, and that your switch is now more likely to stick. Is there really a direct connection from the tumbler section to the electrical section? I would think that there is not, and that the electrical section is sealed tighter than a Scotsmans wallet. I have been meaning for years to pull the ignition switch and investigate this, but my "bandaid fix" of installing a remote starter button has worked perfectly, so I never got around to it. Ferrari told me that you have to buy a complete ignition switch, with keys, and with both door locks, in order to get the electrical portion of the ignition switch (VERY spendy). I hope your fix works, but I'm skeptical. | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Intermediate Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 1203 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ok, we fixed this problem... First, we checked the starter again to see if the solenoid will activate. With a new battery and remote starter, the starter engaged and the car turned over. Okay, now for the voltage test: We checked that 11.8v was being passes to the small white wire during a turn of the key, and 12.15v was live on the live wire. <check> Ignition key relay: Opened up the fuse box under the pass. side footwell... checked the fusebox relay (E) ... swapped a few relays around with same part #'s... turned the key...clicking... relay is working. <check> Now grounding: Found a loose engine ground cable dangling... thought surely this is the solution! Attached the loose cable to ground the engine to the frame.... no dice. <check> Amperage: Found that only 16A was going to the white wire from the ignition switch. On a "hot" jump with a remote starter, it looked like 21A was really needed. So we proceed to clean all terminals... battery terminals, wire connections, etc... gained 2A to 18A. <check> Frustrated at this point... we check the wiring diagrams.... and find that it is before the fuse box that the wire splits and we should look for power draws... but no, there is one more angle we haven't tried! Ignition: Took apart the steering column... unhooked the ignition switch from the harness to the starter... was able to jump start the car by connecting red with white... it's in the ignition!! Took electrical connector spray and shot directly into the key switch.... (just a suggestion, wrap carefully with a towel when doing this - the stuff is highly corrosive to the interior leather!) Cleaned out the switch, turned the key a few times... repeated... it was filthy in there... let it dry for 10min. Voila! 1 turn, the car fires up... it's never had a cleaner start!! Problem solved!! Thanks for your help everyone...and thanks to Kevin P., who helped me diagnose and fix this problem!!  | ||
| Kevin Paul (Klfpaul)
New member Username: Klfpaul Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2003 |
Byron, I have experienced this problem and diagnostic results before in other cars. The problems have been corroded solenoid wires or terminal at the starter (even if the wire tests 12V, test on the post at the solenoid for 12v confirmation), a corroded main battery wire at the starter (same as above), or a corroded, loose, or dirty engine to frame grounding strap (even if the neg. battery cable is connected to the engine block, check this as this is often forgotten and does play a role during high current draw applications). Hope this helps, -Kevin | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 327 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mark, Byron is kinda right in his description. I tested the large hot wire to the starter it is 12v. I tested the small wire key on/off and it will cycle 12v. I can start the car with everything connected and a remote starter of large terminal to small. Interestingly it will not start if I short the large to the small with a screwdriver. Something is funny and it is not the starter. I do not understand why the 12v small wire pulse is not triggering the solenoid. I do not think you earlier post of the bypass will work. What it sounds like you did was basically add in a remote solinoid. The current starter solinoid is good. So now what? It is definately an electrical problem that will need more time to ferret out | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 322 Registered: 7-2002 |
Byron That sounds odd, if the small wire is getting 12v with the key turned it should be firnig the Solenoid in and turning the starter. I do have the wiring diagram but it shows about as much info as I posted earleir,, The Power Board appears to be a PCB with some fuses and relays as well, I suppose it's possible there may be a fault on the board but as I said before if the small wire is getting 12v then it should be working unless it's the starter or somehow there is too much resistance on the wire. Next test is to run a wire directly from the back of the Ignition switch (find the connector with 2 white wires) and run it dorectly to the starter, this will eliminate the power board and existing wire. | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Intermediate Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 1164 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ok...let me elaborate a bit... This is a problem when the car is hot and cold. When we tested the starter, we checked both the live wire as well as the small. With the key turned, the small wire was getting 12V. But for some reason I wasn't able to jumpstart the starter by connecting the small with the live wire... The solenoid was activated with a remote starter though - which leads me to believe that the problem is in my key switch... but as you say, Mark, the power board is in my passenger footwell... Do you have the diagram of where I should look? | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 319 Registered: 7-2002 |
Plip to see if it is the problem take a feed directly from the battery and connect it to the small conector on the starter, if it activates the solenoid then it is the problem | ||
| G. Olivieri (Plip)
New member Username: Plip Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2003 |
Hi Mark, have the same problem on my TR...when hot no sign of life from the starter, need to try three or four times and then, as a miracle, the starter come up again an engine lives...suppose need to do same cure as suggested to Trevi ?? Tks and rgds Plip | ||
| Ermin Trevisan (Trevi)
Junior Member Username: Trevi Post Number: 104 Registered: 5-2003 |
mark, thanx for the hint, i'll talk to my mechanic about that. trevi | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 318 Registered: 7-2002 |
Byron The small wire from the starter should be White, it probably disappears almost immediately in to a small loom and goes via 3 connectors eventually to the power board at pin 4 of section D (lower left), it goes through the board to Pin 4, Section A (upper left and then to pin 50 of the Ignition Switch, there is no relay. ps the power board is in the passenger footwell Trevi We have had this problem many many times on our non Ferrari race car, it is caused by extra resistance on the cables from the heat, to resolve this we took the signal wire from the starter and took it to a new relay, then a wire direct from battery (or in the case of Ferrari the rear power connector) to supply the relay, then a new wire from relay to starter, cures it everytime | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 317 Registered: 7-2002 |
Byron Presumably you tested the 12v on the large connector on the Starter? if so this is probably live all the time, what you need ot check is to see if the starter is getting a signal on the small Wire, get somebody to hold the key in the starter position and measure the voltage, alternatively turn the ignition on to position 2 take a wire directly from the large connector to the small one on the starter, if the engine turns over and starts then it is a signal problem and yes it's comes from the ignition circuit, I'll have a look at the diagrams and give you a trace to follow. It's not uncommon for the back of the ignition swithch to fail or even fall out! | ||
| Ermin Trevisan (Trevi)
Junior Member Username: Trevi Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2003 |
byron, i have this problem with my mondial, which has the same engine, when i was driving it hard and the engine is very hot. it disappears, when the engine cooled down again. trevi | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Intermediate Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 1161 Registered: 10-2002 |
It started 1 week ago when I showed up to a drive event and my starter seemed bad... when I turn the key, there was no sound and no cranking... First suspicion was starter... tested the voltage going to the starter and it seemed ok, 12 volts. Pulled the starter off, rebuilt, and replaced... then changed battery... still no start! I'm tired of push-starting my car... is there anything else I haven't thought of? I'm thinking it's in the ignition switch somewhere - is there a relay or fuse that controls the ignition switch? Any help is appreciated...thanks! |