| Author | Message | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 388 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks Paul, I'll contact you when my wheels arrive so I get the right size bolts | ||
| Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member Username: Beachbum Post Number: 214 Registered: 9-2002 |
i just got through installing spacers from hill eng, they look great, quality is exellent, i went with the 20mm on the front and the 30mm on the back, perfect fit, havent tested the handling limits yet but it seems less twitchy in slower speed corners | ||
| Noelrp (Noelrp)
Member Username: Noelrp Post Number: 338 Registered: 8-2001 |
Billybob, HR's website is www.hrsprings.com I have their 15mm spacers (and longer bolts) for the rear that I bought few months before Paul released his spacers. Paul's products are pretty good from what I've read. | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 418 Registered: 12-2002 |
Billy, We manufacture all of the wheel bolts that we sell at our factory here in London. Hill Engineering (Catford) Ltd is a registered BS EN ISO9002 registered company and these wheel bolts are manufactured under a strict quality control procedure. I have a destruction test that MIRA conducted on our wheel bolts that showed an average of 24% increase in strength over the stock wheel bolts. I can email you a copy of the test report if you wish. We have over 1500 bolts in stock at any one time and carry the standard bolts from the Dino to the 360, special plus sizes to use with our spacers and generic bolts with 30mm of thread that can be modified by us or the customer for special applications. Feel free to email me [email protected] if I can be of anymore help. Paul | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 387 Registered: 8-2002 |
Paul, Do you have various wheel bolt lengths in stock? Do you make your own and to what standards? | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 386 Registered: 8-2002 |
Guys, There was this company HR for spacers and wheel bolts of various lengths. Does anyone have the web link to H&R? | ||
| John Roberts (Bigbaddad)
New member Username: Bigbaddad Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2001 |
Perfect Mike, thanks! | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Intermediate Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 1076 Registered: 8-2002 |
Shifter thread for the gear knob on your car is 10 X 1.25mm The stock Ferrari nut uses a 17mm wrench. | ||
| John Roberts (Bigbaddad)
New member Username: Bigbaddad Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2001 |
Paul- Thanks for the offer, but it isn't necessary. If you tell me the specs of the nut, I'll just pick one up locally. Thanks again - John | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 402 Registered: 12-2002 |
John, Glad your pleased with the items  If you need a locknut for the gearknob, just say and I will pop one in the post to you. I have posted a picture from an old thread with the before and after effect of the 25mm rear & 15mm front spacers. Cheers Paul   | ||
| John Roberts (Bigbaddad)
New member Username: Bigbaddad Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2001 |
I was thinking the extra thread was for the lock nut, thanks! Here are a few before & after pictures. In the front pics, it is harder to tell, I didn't get a straight on shot. -John Rear - before  Rear - after  From the front - before  From the front - after  | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Intermediate Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 1077 Registered: 4-2003 |
John, it's normal. There should be a lock nut under the shift know as well. Vincent. | ||
| Mister Jones (Davey_jones)
Junior Member Username: Davey_jones Post Number: 153 Registered: 9-2002 |
Do you have some before / after pics of tyres? Also, is that a metal plate or something underneath your shift gate?? | ||
| John Roberts (Bigbaddad)
New member Username: Bigbaddad Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2001 |
Just to follow up, I got my spacers, they are great! I also ordered a wheel hanger and shift knob from Paul. The wheel hanger made the whole process a ton easier. Here are a few pics. In the shiftknob picture, you can still see some threads, just below the knob, on the shift lever. Is this normal, it feels like the knob is as tight as I want it? -John Here are the bits, fresh out of the box  Shift knob installed.  Rear Type II wheel spacer  Front type I wheel spacer  | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 897 Registered: 10-2002 |
Paul. My mistake I mean 15 mm spacers. | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 400 Registered: 12-2002 |
Justin, Can you clarify 150mm spacers? - or do you mean 15mm spacers? Paul | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 871 Registered: 10-2002 |
Any suggestions.... | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 864 Registered: 10-2002 |
  I have wide track on my 348 with 150mm spacers and then 275x35x18 tyres on 10" rims. As shown in the picture. I have no spacers on the front and then 225x40x18 tyres on 9.5" rims. I put 150mm spacers on the front but everytime I cornered they hit the front wheel arch and scrap badly. The car handles beautiful at all speeds and corners great with tyre wear perfect even after trackdays.. My questions are.... Can I increase the rear tyres to 285 but at what depth stay at 35 or change to 30. I am concerned about how close the tyre will be to the side of the wheel arch. And can I increase my tyre size at the front to 235 but at what depth stay at 40 or change to 35. If I add 150mm spacers on the front should I stay at 225 but go down in depth to 35 to stay clear of the wheel arch. Please help, any advice would help. or should I keep it they it is. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1108 Registered: 4-2002 |
"After putting the 25mm spacers on the rear and the 15mm spacers on the front the problem totally disappeared." You gave the rear end more grip than you gave the front end. Therefore, minor upsets to the chassis at high speed are now in a safe understeering mode of impact rather than the slight oversteering mode prior to the spacers. You may have also picked up a slight push that you don't notice because you increased the forces in the steering rack (by adding spacers to the front) and these forces drown out the feel of slight steering forces from the contact patches. It would likely take back to back runs on a race track to convince you of the subtle chassis changes with spacers versus without. You might even want to try same one day. I suggest that you culd have made the same chassis handling change by lowering the rear end by 3 turns on the shock towers. | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 396 Registered: 12-2002 |
Mitch, I know what one I would prefer to drive at 200 mph, but I would prey that there was no crosswind!! All very interesting though, Before I had spacers on my 348, I always had to correct the steering at high speed � It was not severe, but was noticeable enough to make it slightly uncomfortable to drive for prolonged periods. After putting the 25mm spacers on the rear and the 15mm spacers on the front the problem totally disappeared. Any ideas Mitch? � I know it cured the problem but would love to know why! Just looking in the 348 parts book, it contradicts what I was led to believe that only the Speciale had the wide track. The parts manual (1994) lists the longer (80mm) wheel bolt for the rear wheels only on the USA & Canadian cars. Would be interesting to hear from anyone with a late car to clarify things! John � Many thanks for the order. Paul | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1105 Registered: 4-2002 |
"When does a narrow track car ever feel more stable?" When you are talking about high speed, a narrow track car is more stable at high speeds than a wide track car. A narrow track car (and especially a long wheelbase car) takes longer to react to a 1-wheel imbalance of force, and therfore is less sensitive to road irregularities. According to the definition of stability, a narrow track car is more stable. As an extreme example consider a car with 100" wheelbase and 10" track, and compare it to a different car with a 10" wheelbase and a 100" track. Which one would you want to drive (in a straight line) at 200 MPH? and why? I understand why you are using the word 'stable' in describing the feel of a car in turns, however, this is not the correct word in this context. | ||
| Chris A. (Asianbond)
Junior Member Username: Asianbond Post Number: 156 Registered: 5-2002 |
I try real hard to not getting into any debate issue on this site but i find it hard to believe that a narrower track vehicle is more stable and handles better than a wider one. In fact you contradict yourself by first saying "wider track is less stable than narrow track cars" then you say "wider track cars feel better and has more grip". What are you talking about? Aren't we referring to how a car handles and feels when push hard in the curvys? When does a narrow track car ever feel more stable? Top fuel dragsters are one of the most unstable cars in the world, how many times have you seen them roll because they veer a little off course. The reason they are narrow track is because they are design for straight line and to cut down on its drag coefficent. It's like comparing the handling feel of my 348 to a TVR Chimera, taking both cars at the limit the TVR is much more of a handful due to its narrower track. I agree with your other points on possible cause for unstability and twitchiness. | ||
| Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member Username: Beachbum Post Number: 212 Registered: 9-2002 |
Chris, thanks for the pics, i saw the befor and after pics of martins car also, those little spacers make a big difference in the look, plus reducing the twitchyness to any extent would be a big plus, its got me into trouble a couple times, nothing i couldnt get out of but it gets your heart going pretty good | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1098 Registered: 4-2002 |
"I read that the wider track/offset addressed and reduced the twitchy at the limits behavior that the motoring press complaining about in the earlier 348s. Which does make a lot of sense from a vehicle dynamics persepctive since a wider track car will always be more stable than a narrow track car." 1) Wider track is almost equivalent to lowering the CoG of the car. A wider track transfers LESS weight to the outside tire under cornering. 2) the twitch in the 348 has 3 possible causes: a) there is a high speed twitch (WOT -> brakes) that is cured by getting the front set to the correct ride height; b) there is a rear oversteer condition that is adjusted by setting the rear ride height*; c) the pre-Speciale cars had a different rear upper A-arm chassis attachment point that had a lower rear roll center**. 3) Wider track cars are LESS stable than narrow track cars (just look at top fuel dragsters!) based on the definition of vehicle stability in Milliken and Milliken. Wider track cars feel better and have higher levels of grip, but when they let go, they let go in a less catchable manner. Thereby, they are less stable. * These cars can be setup for a wide range of front to rear tire ratios by giggling the rear ride ehight (assuming the front ride height is properly set). This adjusts the roll couple distribution. When set exactly right, a single turn of the ride height adjuster can induce understeer (lowering the rear) or oversteer (raising the rear) in very controllable amounts. There is not reason to use spacers to do this adjustment, however wider rear track will have better rear grip (weight transfer), but the trick is to use the width to stiffen both ends simmilarly. If you need more than 2 PSI different f/r in your tires for neutral cornering, you might want to adjust the rear ride height to get the tires into a tighter operating condition. ** there is a new sub-frame that can be installed ($$$) of a jig that travels around the country that is used to reposition the a-arm attachment point on the existing sub-frame. | ||
| Chris A. (Asianbond)
Junior Member Username: Asianbond Post Number: 153 Registered: 5-2002 |
I read that the wider track/offset addressed and reduced the twitchy at the limits behavior that the motoring press complaining about in the earlier 348s. Which does make a lot of sense from a vehicle dynamics persepctive since a wider track car will always be more stable than a narrow track car. | ||
| Chris A. (Asianbond)
Junior Member Username: Asianbond Post Number: 152 Registered: 5-2002 |
Craig, before pics of a red 93 TS and yellow 91 TS that I did not buy, the cars definitely look under tire/wheel   After pics of a 91 TB that I ended up buying, it is not a true challenge but it does have certain challenge spec upgrades. I do not know what spec spacers were used but they really make the car look just "right"   | ||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 165 Registered: 2-2003 |
Steve, And come to think of it I have a vague recollection about something changing on the later 348's and that was very likely the track dimensions. I don't have them for the GTC, not really sure where I could check unless somebody else on here knows... The one thing is they are 10J x 18" rims maybe the split rims alone account for the wheels being out further? | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2125 Registered: 1-2001 |
Gordo -- If you've got non-street-stock wheels (with less "+" offset), you may already have widened track dimensions which would explain why you don't seem to have any room for additional spacers/adapters. I've got a very vague recollection that people have posted that on early 348s, widening the rear track was a strongly recommended/required(?) change, but have no facts (nor know if the 348 wheels/suspension evolved to alter the track). Do you know what your track dimensions are or what they should be for a "348GT Competizione"? | ||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 155 Registered: 2-2003 |
OK sounds great, but as it is strictly speaking 'out of spec' does it really improve the handling etc? Looking at my 348 the tires on the back already seem very close to the arches isnt there a risk they touch on a bad bump? Again, silly questions but this sounds very interesting if it doesnt detract from the handling and even better if it can improve it! | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Intermediate Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 1036 Registered: 8-2002 |
As Pontiac says in their commercials, "wider is better". I definitely could tell a handling difference on mine at the track when I put on the rear spacers. It also caused the wheels and tires to fill up the wheel wells nicely. | ||
| John Roberts (Bigbaddad)
New member Username: Bigbaddad Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2001 |
Gordo - The only reason I am getting them is to make the car look more aggressive. -John | ||
| Gordo A. (Gordo)
Junior Member Username: Gordo Post Number: 150 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sorry if this is a REALLY stupid question, but why wheel spacers? Is it simply to push them out slightly further? Any performance implications? Again, my apologies but I keep seeing bits on wheel spacers and wanted to get up to speed Thanks | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Intermediate Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 1062 Registered: 4-2003 |
I have a set from Paul, and they are high quality. Paul was very helpful, thanks. Vincent. | ||
| John Roberts (Bigbaddad)
New member Username: Bigbaddad Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2001 |
Paul - I am sending an order your way. Thanks - John | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
Member Username: 348paul Post Number: 394 Registered: 12-2002 |
John, The most popular sizes that we sell for the 348 are the 25mm spacers for the rear and 15mm spacers for the front. The 25mm and 30mm spacers are the adaptor type that uses the existing wheel bolts, while all the sizes below 25mm are the spacer type that use longer wheel bolts. Feel free to email me if you need to ask any more questions. Thanks kindly Paul Hill www.hill-engineering.co.uk [email protected] | ||
| John Roberts (Bigbaddad)
New member Username: Bigbaddad Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2001 |
So then, the smaller spacers would use a 5 bolt style, while the larger spacers would require a 10 bolt set up? | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Intermediate Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 1032 Registered: 8-2002 |
Whether you use 5-bolt or 10-bolt is a design & safety function of the thickness you choose. | ||
| John Roberts (Bigbaddad)
New member Username: Bigbaddad Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hey guys - For those that went with the spacers from Paul, which style did you go with? The 10 bolt version, or the 5 bolt version? What sizes did you end up putting on? Thanks - John '91 348ts | ||
| Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member Username: Beachbum Post Number: 201 Registered: 9-2002 |
ordered them from paul at hill engineering, great price, put up with my 10 emails while i was making up my mind what sizes i wanted, very helpful, thanks paul | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 419 Registered: 7-2002 |
Craig, I recommend Paul Hill. Hill Engineering; a sponsor of F-Chat. I have some of his on my 348 Twin Turbo. They look great. The quality is fantastic and the price is low. They give the car a much more aggresive look. | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Intermediate Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 1259 Registered: 10-2002 |
Craig, 30mm in the back is about right. 15mm in the front is probably the limit... 25 might be pushing it. Martin has some good contacts in Germany that can get you these... or try Paul Hill in the UK, who makes em. I've seen them on Martin's old 348ts, and they look great on the car. I have pictures of the before and after - what a difference! | ||
| Craig (Beachbum)
Junior Member Username: Beachbum Post Number: 197 Registered: 9-2002 |
im measuring for wheel spacers for stock 91 348 wheels, when i measure from the top center of the wheel well arch to flush with the rim i get 25mm front and back, checking back in the archives it looks like 30mm each side for the back, and 15mm each side for the front is what people are using, the 30's sound just right for the back but im wondering if 15mm is enough for the fronts, i checked and they dont make 20mm spacers, has anybody tried 25mm each side for the fronts or would that be over doing it, any opinions? |