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Message |
David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
Junior Member
Username: Dave330gtc
Post Number: 171
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 5:30 pm: | |
My car is being repainted now. There was never any question that the car was going to be stripped to bare metal and repainted. The failure is going to come from underneath, not the top coat. If you want your car to still look great in 10 years do it right. If you don't care about longevity of the paint job you can probably get by with new top coat only. I totally agree with Norm's comments regarding this issue. My painter gave me an estimate based on hours it has taken for previous jobs, but there is always the question mark and the open line for surprises. An estimate is a starting point. I want it done correctly the first time. |
Richanton (Richanton)
New member
Username: Richanton
Post Number: 29
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 9:56 am: | |
I have to go down to the shop and discuss these issues. It is a well known shop with a good reputation. I have had work done by them before, and it came out good. It is a large, very modern shop. Actually very impressive; although I get the impression they do mostly volume insurance work, not a lot of exotics or restorations. I don't think they need the room or are trying to get my car out of the way. Maybe they are over their head or maybe they think the base paint looks good enough to paint over. I am sure if I pushed to have the car stripped they would do it.
Like I have said, I have to pick the car up once all the repairs are done. It will be a while because I'm still waiting for parts. Maybe once the service is done I will have someone else give me an estimate on the paint. I would love to hear any experiences guys have had with bodyshops in the NY,NJ,CT area.
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. |
Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
Junior Member
Username: Kurtk328
Post Number: 227
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 8:40 am: | |
Thanks Verell for your excellent explanation. |
Norm (32storm)
Junior Member
Username: 32storm
Post Number: 56
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 7:17 am: | |
If your shop's attitude on the filler is "if it worked for Ferrari if would work for us", it may be time to consider how competent this shop really is. Verell is right on the money, the main issue is the quality of the base. You have (2)signs of a potential for future problems: #1)there are already cracks in areas with filler. #2)the car already has been repainted previously.
If your concern is can a shop apply filler as well as ferrari did, a quality shop should be able to do it easily. If they can't, they are incompetent!!Time to find another shop. If it was my Ferrari and $'s,i wouldn't be re-spraying over a questionable base. If it was a dump truck, who cares? But a Ferrari....not a chance.
Due to all the variables encountered during strips & repaints of exotics and specialty cars, especially older cars with who knows what underneath the paint, I have a friend who's shop works on an hourly basis. They get a retainer at start of work, and charge time as the work is completed. If customer runs out of money, they simply cover the car in plastic and put it aside until the customer can afford to continue. This approach allows customer to take a restoration to whatever degree they would like. it also eliminates a situation where a shop underbids a job, then cuts corners to try to make a $, or cut their losses.(By the way, not trying to plug their shop, so I'm not going to mention their name.)I have seen many cases where a panel appears solid, until you begin to strip it. Once the stripping begins, you may find that a whole quarter is nothing but filler. Then the big decision starts, do you replace the panel, or re-do filler? Is the shop afraid of what may be underneath, and they will be over their heads? Do they have a limited amount of shop space, and are trying to get you out the door?
There's never enough time or money to do the job correctly the first time, but always time and money to do it again.
Also, i wouldn't hesitate to re-spray the car and then have the service performed on it. Basically, this is what happens to everyone else that already has a nice paint job on their car.that's what fender tenders are made for.
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Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 740
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 4:22 pm: | |
Verell hit it right on the head. It will definately look good when you get it back, but how will it look in a year or 2? Maybe good, maybe not, it all depends on the condition of what you paint over. If you were just talking about a panel or 2, well just respay them, they'll be as good as the rest of the car. But now that you're doing the whole car..... |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 1161
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 4:07 pm: | |
re:"I just can't see how that can look good"
Why not?
Looks are almost completely a function of the underlying surface being properly prepped ie: All dings, chips, etc. being feathered & filled, then the surface smoothly sanded, primed where necessary & the primer sanded. Then sealed & sprayed with several color coats, sanded smooth and then sprayed again with possible final color sanding & compounding to remove any hint of orange peel.
If the underlying paint is completely sound(it seldom is) then a great looking finish can be achieved by just sanding it with 600 to 1200 grit (as recommended by the paint mfg), and then spraying the color coats. This is frequently done for the remainder of a panel when only a small ding was repaired & primed. Or when the panel was lightly keyed or otherwise just scuffed up.
LONGEVITY IS THE QUESTION:
What we've been discussing for most of this thread is whether or not the underlying surface is sufficiently stable so that it will hold up over several years. |
Richanton (Richanton)
New member
Username: Richanton
Post Number: 27
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:59 am: | |
I had never thought about that. I was more worried about the mecahnic scratching or chipping my new paint. I didn't really figure primer contamination would be an issue since the car will be prepped for paint after the service.The only panels that will be primed before the service are the passenger door, right rear valence, and front valence. |
Dave (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 602
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:31 am: | |
If it were me, I would skip the service till after the car is fully painted and cured.
I would sure hate to have to re-sand/degrease/re-prime/possibly repaint the car because of missed fingerprints, or other contaminates on the primer. |
Richanton (Richanton)
New member
Username: Richanton
Post Number: 26
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 11:14 am: | |
My original plan was to have the car stripped to bare metal, prepped and painted. Once I had the bodyshop examine the car they said that we shouldn't strip to bare metal, if it worked for Ferrari it would work for us. That made some sense to me, who knows if a bodyshop can reapply the filler and smooth the panels as well as Ferrari did it. (Until the car was damaged the paint was in very good shape with a nice gloss, and all the panels on the car are very straight. The car has been sitting for a while and, as a result, has developed two cracks in the filler that are visible through the paint.)
At that point I figured we would strip the old paint, examine and make any repairs needed to the existing filler, prep it, prime it, and paint it.
I met with the shop again on Saturday, and the new plan is to prime the new panels, sand and prep the old paint, and paint right over it. I just can't see how that can look good, but then I have ZERO body shop experience. The shop seems to be doing a good job on the repair. Once the car is back together I am taking it to have the service done, then I will take it back for the paint. Maybe at that point I will take the car somewhere else for the paint, but I really have no idea who to take it to. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 1159
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 8:23 am: | |
I'll try to give a 'practical' explanation in terms of effects:
A Lacquer cures solely by drying. That is, it's 'cure' totally depends on evaporation of a highly volatile solvent. The 'cure' is reversable. ie: Re-application of the solvent will re-dissolve a lacquer.
An enamel cures by a combination of solvent evaporation and molecular cross-linking. The 'cure' of an enamel is irreverseable.
For many years lacquer was the finish of choice for high-end cars as it produced a hard surface that could be polished to a very smooth glossy finish. Any defects such as orange peel could be sanded and polished out. In fact, lacquer almost always required sanding & polishing to achieve a glossy finish.
Early enamels produced their gloss by a thin surface skin. If you tried to sand & polish them to remove defects, you would break thru the skin and have a dull finish that wouldn't polish to a gloss.
Modern catalyzed plastic based enamels no longer have this characteristic. They tend to inherently produce a very smooth glossy finish, but if necessary they can be sanded and polished.
You may hear the terms 'single stage' or 'double stage'. This refers to how the paint system achieves it's gloss & depth of color.
A single stage paint provides both gloss & depth of color as it cures. It's what you normally think of as paint.
A double (or two) stage paint is inherently two layers. A base coat layer that provides the color, and a clear coat top layer that provides the gloss.
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Kurt Kjelgaard (Kurtk328)
Junior Member
Username: Kurtk328
Post Number: 225
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 4:13 am: | |
Can anyone explain to a non-english/american person
exactly what the difference is between lacquer and enamel.
I guess it has something to do with chemistry, but what?
Thanks. |
Norm (32storm)
Junior Member
Username: 32storm
Post Number: 55
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 10:35 pm: | |
I don't want to burst any bubbles here, but if you're planning on keeping the car, spend the time and dollars and do it right. If you already have cracked filler from either previous repairs, or from the factory, trying to address the cracked areas is just a band-aid. Paint is simply a reflection of what is under it. Paint over crap, the end result is painted crap.
Unfortunately, the only "can of worms" you may be opening is in terms of econmics. Is your shop reluctant to give you a firm price for a total strip to metal & repaint? I would understand completely, if they were hesitant on a firm price to fix existing filler areas, especially in light of car having already been painted before. The shop may not be able to tell if just minor skim coat in areas, or if a large section is all filler. Also depending upon the level of expertise of the shop, they could be getting in over their heads.
By just fixing the visible cracked filler areas, you may have a situation where new cracks may develop after you have invested the money in a new paint job. So, basically, it may shine and look pretty, but as soon as it develops new cracks, the car will look like it needs to be painted again. Not exactly a long term solution if you are planning on keeping it.
I would also be concerned if you are just planning on skuffing up the previous painted sections and re-shooting them. Spraying over a 15 year old repaint, with a 25 year old base paint is not the approach I would consider for a Ferrari. Unfortunately, a poor paint job could effect the long term value of the car, if you decide to sell it. When you cut corners on the paint on a vehicle like a Ferrari, it tends to get a buyer thinking where else were $'s cut.
I know financially, this is not what you want to hear. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 1157
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 8:07 pm: | |
Richanton,
Just exchanged some eMAIL with Dupont Finishes tech support center. Their advice boils down to:
It's important to figure out if your old 'sound' paint is enamel or lacquer.
Lacquer will dissolve fairly quickly with lacquer thinner on a cloth. Enamel either won't respond to lacquer thinner, or will respond fairly slowly. Your body shop man should be familiar with the checks.
To quote Dupont:"The only good way to repair lacquer with a Urethane is to use waterbased materials. That is fine on a panel repair but
blending it is not. If the vehicle is Lacquer that is what I would consider putting back on it."
Refinising over old lacquer is risky depending on the refinishing materials and whether or not they'll soften/deterioriate the lacquer. |
Neil Green (Neilg)
Junior Member
Username: Neilg
Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 7:32 pm: | |
Richanton, good luck on whichever way you decide to go. With my car it really was no decision - the car was severely crazed everywhere, so I decided to do a complete strip to bare metal....as the web site explains, the amount of filler from the factory was unbelievable to say the least.... |
Richanton (Richanton)
New member
Username: Richanton
Post Number: 25
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 1:42 pm: | |
Neil, I have already read the article and I have been to the redline website. I found the article on your car very informative. I don't want to strip the car if I don't have to. I have to replace body panels on the car, repair the interior and do a 30,000 mile on this car, so I just don't want to spend $10,000 on the paint.
The old paint on the car actually looks very good, but the filler underneath has cracked in two spots. The paint is probably 15 years old. I am replacing the passenger door, the front valence, grill and right rear valence. I also had to repair the right front fender. |
Dave (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 600
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 1:39 pm: | |
If it were me, and I had the chance to fix the paint,
I would hate to have to fix it twice.
Verell, I have looked into sealers like this, as well as a waterborn product, and none of the manufactures would guarantee their product sprayed over 20 year old laquer.
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Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 737
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 10:44 am: | |
"My guy thinks they may be the result of previous repairs. He is going to repair those areas as best he can, but he does not think we should strip all of the filler off the car. He seems to think this would just be opening a can of worms"
I think that if there is any chance that you would be opening a can of worms, then now is the time to open it, before your new paint is ruined. I do basically agree with Verell, that is the base paint is good, then there is no reason to remove it. But.... your paint is over 20 years old and probably has previous repairs hiding under it. That paint needs to come off IMO. |
Neil Green (Neilg)
Junior Member
Username: Neilg
Post Number: 109
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 10:24 am: | |
Richanton, I resurrected my painter's web site write-up of the complete strip/repaint he did on my '77 308 GTB earlier this year (it has been posted on FerrariChat before)....see what you think after reading this......
http://www.redlinerennsport.homestead.com/Ferrari.html |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 1156
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 8:34 am: | |
Rich,
Ummm, if you're starting to see primer or filler failure, then we're talking an entirely different situation.
If the filler is only failing in high flex areas, then it may be ok to strip it off and re-fill. If there doesn't seem to be any particular pattern to the locations of the failing filler, then you may be facing general filler deterioration.
Anywhere paint is checking it must be stripped down to the primer. If the primer is also checking, then it too must be stripped.
Dave,
I believe that the modern urethane or epoxy catalyzed primer/sealers can go over sound well-cured lacquer. I'm thinking of a couple of Dupont's products. You'd have to check with the primer/sealer mfg. to be sure tho. |
dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 1927
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 12:01 pm: | |
From past threads, I believe the problems with early 308's was the filler used, not the primer. It also depended a lot on how the car was stored and used...if you lived in the southwest or southeast, and the car was outside a lot, it would crack and craze...
I guess the BIG QUESTION, is if you fill and sand and repaint over it...will the cracking start and continue?????
I had a 78 car that had been repainted in the late 80's to the later shade of brighter red, but have no idea why it was repainted or if it had a previous problem...though with only 15k miles and no rust,visible wear or wreck (was inspected by bodyshop), would assume is was just
that the previous owner liked the later shade of red, or maybe it got keyed or something...paint looked great...no signs of failing anywhere....though I did have the front resprayed due to stone chips (I started driving it a LOT). |
Richanton (Richanton)
New member
Username: Richanton
Post Number: 24
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 11:22 am: | |
The car is a 1978 and has been repainted before, so I really have no idea what is underneath the paint. It worries me a little bit because the filler has started to crack in some spots. What if we paint the car and then next year the new paint cracks? I thought at the very least we would have to strip the old paint, do some prep work to the filler (maybe repair it in some spots and smooth it) then prime and paint. My man wants to prime the new panels, then sand the old paint and paint right over it. I have my doubts, that is why I want to know if anyone else has done this. I am going to be dumping a lot of money into this car, so I want the paint to look really good. |
Dave (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 597
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:10 am: | |
One question I would ask is, what year is the car?
The reason being, that 70's 308s had a problem with the primer to paint adhearshion.
Also if the car is painted with the original Glidden laquer and then resprayed with modern paint you will have a problem with the paint lifting in the future.
Just something to think about if you have a pre 1980 car.
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Peter Barbin (Sophia)
New member
Username: Sophia
Post Number: 36
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2003 - 4:59 pm: | |
I believe your body guy has given you some sound advice thus far...I was fortunate enough to view a completely stripped* '85 QV recently. The car was virtually a bare tub, with a few front suspension & environmentals still installed.
When I say stripped*, the car's owner, with paint and body experience, elected to NOT go to far beyond the original paint/primer...from the factory, filler abounds! If its stable and solid, leave it, and complete it with proper prep.
Post some pictures! |
Thomas I (Wax)
Member
Username: Wax
Post Number: 405
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 3:34 pm: | |
Excellent TIP! If ya can't beat physics, join physics. |
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member
Username: Verell
Post Number: 1148
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 3:19 pm: | |
There's no particular reason for a 3x8 to be harder to do a proper prep & paint job than most other cars. The key is the word 'proper'. The quality required is no different than is required for any other high end car. With today's catalyzed paints the quality is a lot easier to achieve than when these cars were built.
A full strip & redo does involve a lot more filling & sanding work because the base panels are hand formed & are a lot more rough than higher volume cars whose tooling produces much smoother & better joined panels.
The inside of the side scoops are about he only unusually tough area to prep & paint. Their reverse curve makes them hard to sand. Also, since they're recessed, they're hard to paint to full depth w/o getting runs.
I sweated spraying my scoops when I did my rocker panel rust removal last spring. However, they ended up the only repainted area that developoed maximum gloss without a hint of orange peel!
TIP: Don't try to mask off the back of the scoops by taping masking paper across the end. If you do the paint will 'bounce' away from the flat masking paper surface, leaving the inner edges of the scoop unpainted. Instead, make about a 3' long paper cone & tape the large end over the end of the scoop. Air & paint can now get well into the cone before it's reflected back. It'll then be possible to get a good uniform coat of paint the full depth of the scoop.
(Donning Nomex Suit)If you search the archives for 'repaint', you'll see that i'm in a minority as most people are going to tell you to do a full strip.
IMHO, If your paint is basicly sound & not checking or otherwise deterioriated, then a full sanding, feathering & touch-up of all chips, then respraying should produce excellent results at significantly less cost than a full strip & repaint. It sounds like you've got a wise body man. |
Richanton (Richanton)
New member
Username: Richanton
Post Number: 22
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 10:02 am: | |
I just got off the phone with the bodyshop that has my 308. They have already started working on the car, and it seems to be going well. The damaged panels have been straightened, and now they are working on the filler. The filler had cracked in some of the body panels that were not damaged in the crash. My guy thinks they may be the result of previous repairs. He is going to repair those areas as best he can, but he does not think we should strip all of the filler off the car. He seems to think this would just be opening a can of worms. He doesn't even think we have to strip the old paint, he wants to replace the damaged panels, strip the trim, prep it and paint it.
I am still trying to locate some of the parts, but hopefully I will have them all soon. He is going to strip the entire car of all trim, emblems, windows, etc. before he preps it for paint. I am still just a little nervous because he has never painted a Ferrari before. I keep hearing that these cars are a nightmare to prep and paint, but my bodyguy makes it sound like it will be no big deal. I am having him put the car back together and prime the new panels, then I will take it for 30,000 mile service before we strip it and paint it. |
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