| Author | Message | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2068 Registered: 5-2001 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay gents, I took the 328 out for a drive, put on about 20+ miles, and then did a few 90 degree turns from a stop, hard on the throttle to see if I could induce any chatter from the diff. I could barely perceive just a tad. Did this four times to be sure. I added one tablespoon of the slip additive, which should be about .5%. Perhaps another tablespoon (1%) would be better, but I will drive the car a bit, and put some more miles on before deciding. For now, I could live with it, since it is so minor, and I have to "create" the situation, when it chatters, if even so slightly now. | ||
| Peter Polasek (Peterp)
Junior Member Username: Peterp Post Number: 135 Registered: 8-2002 |
I just put my car in for service and Bryan Vignale at IMS recommended AGIP. It's synthetic, recommended by the factory, and Bryan says it helps the second gear issue. It all sounded good to me, so I asked him to put it in even though I wasn't planning to have the trans oil changed. Looks like my 5 quarts of Red Line will stay on the shelf for a while. I will report results when I get it back (it currently has Mobil One). | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2021 Registered: 5-2001 |
James, Go to the "links" page them find the link for "www.expensivecar.com" On that page, click on "Ferrari" and you will find a page on changing the gear box oil, with pictures... | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1732 Registered: 4-2002 |
James: I'm not sure about what may be in the way on Dave's car, but as you have a GT4, the filler plug should be in plain sight. Just look at the left side of the motor (back, actually....). Find the bell housing. Move toward the LH wheel abit - towards the small end if the bell housing. You'll see a big (22mm, I think) plug. It's usually welded in place, as there is a dissimilar metal thing going on. Tap it with a hammer, then apply pressure with a wrench. When you re-install, a bit of anti-seize makes it a lot easier the next time. | ||
| James I. Movich (77_308gt4)
New member Username: 77_308gt4 Post Number: 45 Registered: 2-2003 |
Can someone provide a picture of where they put in the additive? photo, drawing, tech page, something. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2016 Registered: 5-2001 |
JRV says put the additive in through the top of the transfer case, no problem. I did that this afternoon(added 1 tablespoon, which is approximately the .6 ounce that Dave at Redline recommends will give me the .5% I need in the four quart transaxle)(Tom, too much stuff in the way from the top, so I removed the tire and fender liner), but the weather has turned very foul tonight...I will test in the next couple days and report back...as Ali suggest, it may take bit of miles to accumulate to really know if this did the trick.... | ||
| TOM BUCKLEY (Tom_b)
Junior Member Username: Tom_b Post Number: 111 Registered: 6-2003 |
Dave, On my Mondial I can reach that fill plug from the engine compartment. No need to remove the tire and liner. Check it out. Saves a lot of time. Tom | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2006 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom, Good question, and I hadn't thought of that, but wasn't too concerned either. I intend to add through the top of the clutch housing, as that seemed the easiest to get to, though I will still need to remove the left rear wheel and fender liner...I intend to do this on Saturday (hopefully). | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 2005 Registered: 5-2001 |
Dave, Actually you may want the MTL90, not MTL, but I would recommend you speak with their tech, Dave and read him off the Ferrari lubricant specs first, ask his advice, then decide which you will use, and do let us know your decision.... Personally, Mario's advice (and Ali) have great merit, if you can find Agip, or purchase through the mail. | ||
| Dave White (Dwhite)
Junior Member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 164 Registered: 5-2003 |
Mario, I have an 83 QV also and after reading Redine's info on their products at their site, I feel confident with MTL. | ||
| mario navetta (Mar308)
New member Username: Mar308 Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2003 |
Well after making 30 calls, reading untill my eyes are red, and my suv is filling up with an assortment of gear lube, i could probably open a store. In my opinion I would have to say i am going with what the dealer uses. agip 75- 90. in my 83QV. | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 554 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mike C., I believe Dave's issues, like my own, occur not when accelerating hard in a straight line, but when accelerating hard making a 90 degree turn. The common scenario for me is when I'm at a stopsign or a stoplight, come to a complete stop (atta boy), then nail it as I turn right 90 degrees onto a perpendicular street... For me, it's not noise in the transmission--it's the classical "the limited slip differential isn't slipping / isn't slipping enough" to where the different wheel velocities on either side can't be accomodated by the limited slip. The result is "chriping" or "chatter" or whatever. I'm pretty sure that it's the sound of the outside wheel speeding up rapidly temporarily to catch up to its phsyically required rotation "displacement" if you will, since it has to rotate a farther distance than the inner wheel (which apparently would be dictating the speed of the entire axle if the limited slip were not working). On the other hand, I could be wrong--it could be the inner wheel. But the principle is there. Mike | ||
| Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Member Username: Enjoythemusic Post Number: 801 Registered: 4-2002 |
Dave, You make a good point... but... FYI: the previous owner also used Amsoil and that was in there for about 10k miles before we just changed it due to doing the 60k major service. The car here is truly DRIVEN virtually everyday. So far 7k miles since Feb 1 by Yours Truly and i work at home :-) Just say no to garage queens :-) Enjoy the Drive, Steven R. Rochlin | ||
| TOM BUCKLEY (Tom_b)
Junior Member Username: Tom_b Post Number: 109 Registered: 6-2003 |
Question. When adding the slip additive, can it be done through the cap on top of the clutch housing ? Will it get to where it needs to and not damage anything . I'm thinking , until it gets diluted in the gear box i'll have 100% additive in contact with the transfer gears. Or I could add the 75W90 WITH the slip additive already in. Comments ? Advice ? Tom | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Intermediate Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 1097 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave H: Can you describe what you're getting as far as "noise/vibration" a bit more? When I'm "accellerating hard" in my car, I don't think I'd be able to hear much of anything going on in the trans, or in any case be able to pinpoint that's where it was coming from. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1996 Registered: 5-2001 |
The problem is most of those products are no longer available, and no telling if the replacements are equivalent or not. I suppose it would be best to ask your/my local FNA dealer for recommendations. | ||
| Steve M (Steve308gtsi)
Junior Member Username: Steve308gtsi Post Number: 154 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thought you guys might want a look at my the recommended lubricants chart that came with my warranty booklet. I also have the Agip only card.  | ||
| Peter Polasek (Peterp)
Junior Member Username: Peterp Post Number: 134 Registered: 8-2002 |
Just bought 4 quarts of NS, I guess I'll let them age on the shelf until the dust settles on this discussion. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1994 Registered: 5-2001 |
Not resisting Ali, I have no idea where to get it....but if I can, may switch next go around...I really like the attributes of the Redline. Once I figure out the correct amount of additive to put in, I should be set. | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 163 Registered: 5-2003 |
Let me reiterate that the recommended fluids are Shell Transaxle fluid and Agip Sx. These are the recommended transmission / transaxle fluids. It is actually OK to use the fluid that they specify. Why do people resist using the fluid that the auto manufacturer recommends? aehaas | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1992 Registered: 5-2001 |
Steven, That doesn't solve it necessarily Steven. Mobil 1 worked great initially for me, then started having synchro and limited slip issues as the miles piled on (8 to 9k). The Redline 75w-90NS was fine initially, but started having mild limited slip issues after 1.5k miles or so; but this is NOT a surprise, Dave the tech at Redline, said we might need to add the additive....just to try without first, and add only what is needed to stop the chatter, or live with it. What I am saying, is you may have a problem in the future...just a crap shoot. | ||
| Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Member Username: Enjoythemusic Post Number: 799 Registered: 4-2002 |
And now for something completely different. Just had KTR European in Mass do a 60k on the 308QV here and we used Amsoil Series 2000 SAE 75W-90 Synthetic Gear Lube . No chatter, no worries, no more 2nd gear sync problem... We now return you to the debate already in progress... i'll be out driving :-) Enjoy the Drive, Steven R. Rochlin | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1991 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hans, you are indeed right about mixing the two Redline products, as that is the only difference between the two, one has the slip additive, the other does not, but I think it is too confusing for my feeble mind to comprehend the calculation of the mix. Easier to add the no slip stuff, then put in a bit of the slip additive; for me anyway. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1724 Registered: 4-2002 |
I suspect that the Mobil guy is under the impression that all GL-5 oils use the same sulpher based additives that they do --- which is basically correct. I think all "normally available" (as in Walmart, etc.) GL-5 oils are incompatible. However, there are a few specialty oil houses like RedLine and Swepco that don't play by the normal rules. | ||
| mario navetta (Mar308)
New member Username: Mar308 Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2003 |
Well the saga continues. I just talked to mobil 1 engineer and he said not even GL 5 mineral oil should go in. Ferrari of long island said they use agip 75 90. Mario | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1723 Registered: 4-2002 |
Dave: Next time you change the oil, you can accomplish the same thing by using some of the 'regular' (ie - not the 'NS') oil with the NS. It's in their literature somewhere, but the 'regular' stuff has something like 5% additive, so you can use a few ounces of it and fill with 'NS'. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1990 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jeff, Hans, you are both right! I spoke to Dave at Redline, and there IS a bit of the sulfur in thier additive package, but the amount is so minute, that it will not have any detrimental effect on yellow metals, if there are any. BTW, correction! Dave says to only add .5% slip additive, NOT 1 % as I previously stated. Thus, his recommendation for .5 to .6 an ounce of the slip additive is correct. Just enough...and no more. May require a little trial and error. | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 162 Registered: 5-2003 |
As I found out before, Christopher Gallagher, the tech rep at Ferrari of North America in NJ told me that the transaxles did in fact contain yellow metal parts and that products as the Mobil 1 gear oil should be avoided. aehaas | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1722 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hmmm.... Several of us have talked to Redline and got the *opposite* information. Also, Redline printed literature says that their 75W90 (in various flavors) is non-corrosive to yellow metals up to a temp of 300F, if I remember. I'll have to look it up. Last time this horse was beat to death, several mechanics chimed in saying that they didn't think the 308 gearbox has any brass at all. The syncro rings are dark grey - look like sintered iron. I've seen them. Someone claimed that a magnet will stick to them. Some were arguing that there may be some brass bushings in there somewhere, but nobody could verify that. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 521 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave I talked to Redline and Mobil also, what causes the problem is Sulpher Phosphates which are added to make the Gl5 rating, when the oil temp reaches 180' they will cause the problem with the Yellow metals, Redline has the same Phosphates Mobil does so it will cause the same problem | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1989 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mario, According to Redline, the "yellow metals" issue is not a concern with their products. | ||
| mario navetta (Mar308)
New member Username: Mar308 Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ok i am confused, In an older ferrari wouldn't GL5 rated gear lube be the wrong choice. Taking in consideration the yellow metals involved??? | ||
| James I. Movich (77_308gt4)
New member Username: 77_308gt4 Post Number: 44 Registered: 2-2003 |
not to hijack this, but on my 348 where can i put this in at? there is the large allen head on top, but that will NOT move. at all. solutions? | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1988 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have decided to purchase the additive from Redline and put small amounts in until the chatter goes away. I will report back. Unfortunately it may be a couple weeks until I can get around to it. | ||
| Dave White (Dwhite)
Junior Member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 159 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ali thanks for the info.. | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 161 Registered: 5-2003 |
I can answer that one. MTL is GL-4 rated and the NS is GL-5. Most cars now require GL-5. It has higher shear and temperature additives without thickening the lubricant. aehaas | ||
| Dave White (Dwhite)
Junior Member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 158 Registered: 5-2003 |
Dave is the Redline NS different from the Redline MTL? I have always thought that MLT was the one everyone was using. | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 353 Registered: 6-2003 |
I would use OEM gear oil or something recommended by Ferrari. I had a service manager (from Continental Motorsports) tell me that I should use a Corvette diff gear oil since AGIP not available. My TR calls for AGIP Rotax SX 75W90 SAE. I know this. The wrong oil can result in heat damage to the gears...a very bad thing. I had the diff on my brand new Dodge truck heat damaged with stock oil...put synthetic in and new gears. Fortunately, it was covered by warranty. Don't risk burning up your diff. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2155 Registered: 1-2001 |
I've no direct experience with this issue Dave so not much to offer. I think Ali had a good idea to just try it in small increments and see if you can reduce the LS chattter without degrading the syncro behavior. 0.5 oz isn't exactly a huge amount, but maybe you could drop down to the "tablespoon" level if you wanted to try small increments. In any case, what's the big risk? That you'd have to buy 4 more qts of Redline 75W90 NS if you didn't like it? You're not going to get any sympathy from us 10 qt TR guys ;) | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 520 Registered: 8-2002 |
I've heard that some use a ls addititive by Dodge that works well I just changed my gear oil to Valvoline dino and it shifted good but shifted better before I changed it, the car had regular Quaker gear oil with Slick 50 additive previously Since I had a problem with the crush washer sealing I rechanged it again and used Slick 50 gear oil, now I don't believe in this kind of crap at all but I must confess it shifts better now FWIW Dave Any kind of chattering/noises are bad since you are putting extreme stress in your gearbox/case somewhere, ignoring it on a Ferrari may get expensive | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 552 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'll just chime in and say I'm also getting differential "chiriping" when accelerating from a stop doing a 90-degree turn. Same Redline 75w-90 NS. Didn't have the problem with the Mobil 1 stuff I was using... | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1983 Registered: 5-2001 |
Steve, Thanks, the "other" Dave made the calculation, I didn't really think about it, but you are right! Do you have any opinion on the matter? I value your input. | ||
| Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member Username: Aehaas Post Number: 160 Registered: 5-2003 |
I agree with Steve but would try adding the stuff .5 oz at a time. I would bet that the first .5 will do it. It may be that at a later time you will have to add another .5. Go for a while to let the first .5 do it's job, a few humdred miles at least. I agree with Dave that no additive will probably not hurt the diff and none is best for the synchros. ali | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2154 Registered: 1-2001 |
Wouldn't 1% of 4 quarts (128 ounces) be 1.28 oz.? | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1981 Registered: 5-2001 |
Okay, so recently on a couple occaisions, I have noticed very mild chatter from the diff in my 328. A couple months ago I added the Redline 75w-90 NS (no slip additive) synthetic gear box oil. This noise/vibration would occur when making a 90 degree turn from a stop and accelerating rather hard. Dave at Redline recommends to do nothing, as it is more anoying than anything else...but can this be damaging? He says if I must, to add only 1% slip additive, which would be about .6 of an ounce in the four quart capacity. He says the limited slip needs the additive, the synchros hate it...his opinion is favor the synchros in this instance, as the chatter is not damaging anything, and more an annoyance. Comments for a neophyte, like me? |