| Author | Message | ||
| Sam Germana (Sjmst)
Junior Member Username: Sjmst Post Number: 100 Registered: 7-2003 |
Just dropped my Mondial off at Ferrari of LI. I was advised (by the young lady at the service desk whose title is: "Service Advisor") that timing belts MUST be changed every four years or 15,000 miles. So there! Forget what they say, and for SURE ignore the manual..they are both too liberal. I think the most prudent thing to do is have them changed with every fill up. Of course, I am going to be a reckless fool and let my 5,000 mile timing belt go another year to 6 years or 8,000 miles, but then, I like to live on the edge. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2916 Registered: 9-2001 |
I was reading a HotRod magazine last night while my children were at Andretti's Speeedlab. There was an ad therein for a kit to convert cam chain engines to cam belts. The reason for such a change was claimed to be that cam belts were more reliable than chains and allow for higher revs and easier timing and cam degreeing adjustments. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 759 Registered: 4-2002 |
Agree with Psk. The same belt paranoia exists on a P list I am involved with. | ||
| Paul Gardner (Paulnwgb)
New member Username: Paulnwgb Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2003 |
Thanks for the comments guys - I'm feeling much happier now - I guess there's a lot of unfounded scary stuff floating around various message boards about this :-) I'll definitely get the Power warranty - anyone know how much it costs and how long it lasts? Counting the days! Can't wait!! | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1350 Registered: 9-2002 |
Back to Dale (re 550), I will be doing my 30k next week. I was going to take it in on Monday, but I will be OOTO until Thursday, so it'll be late next week before she gets in. Expected 2 week job. Will let you know how it goes. --Dan | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 918 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yep and after spending 200K performing R&D and wasting you time you might be able to sell them  You guys all crack me up ... and must be driving JRV and other mechanics crazy. Lets start at the begining again: FACT: BELTS ARE BETTER AND CHEAPER THAN CHAINS and in most cases perfectly reliable! They are quiet and do not require lubrication, allow the engine to rev quicker and do similar mileage to chains. The reason they fail on Ferraris is simply some idiots do not follow the maintenance schedule and think that NOT driving your car is good for it (which anybody with half a brain cell knows is absolute crap). The belts break because: - Not using your car hardens the oil seals ... and thus the oil leaks on to the belts. - The belts harden and thus crack due to lack of use. - They need to be changed when the DATE or MILEAGE is up ie. which ever comes FIRST, not which ever is LARGER, or cheaper. I have a Mazda van/people move thingy that I drive to work and back which has over 300,000km's on the clock and I have added 60,000km's since I bought it. I changed the rubber timing belt after purchase, and since then I haven't even looked at it (and never will because I will replace the car before the belt needs changing according to Mazda) ... even though it is probably covered in oil, etc. (because the front crank seal leaks). I have never, ever seen a properly maintain car break a belt ... just never ever happens unless the belt or installation was faulty. I have actually broken belts on my race motors but only when the camshaft has seized FIRST due to major blow up and there were bits of belt everywhere ... and it sheared the cam pulley bolt off!. Thus they are f**ken strong, possibly strong than a chain. In conclusion: If you are going to buy a car that is worth over $100k, why risk replacing a part that costs less than 1% to purchase. Isn't there a saying somewhere about how the rich only get rich because they are such tight bastards . Come on guys you must be joking, surely when you critise these belts. Open those wallets (or buyer a cheaper car to fit your tight arse attitude) ... but watch out for the moths Pete | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2386 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>there's no empirical way to determine weather or not a belt is in "good condition" or "about to die," and anyone that looks at a belt (without obvious cracks, rips, etc.) and declares it's "good" is lying.<< That's rightttt! and Thanks Phil | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 144 Registered: 7-2003 |
'course I can JRV old belts for 550 148515 $95 Oz each NLA new kevlar strand belts for 550. 5 year life 187744 $148 Oz each. Still couldn't get a mileage though. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1334 Registered: 1-2002 |
there's no empirical way to determine weather or not a belt is in "good condition" or "about to die," and anyone that looks at a belt (without obvious cracks, rips, etc.) and declares it's "good" is lying. I dont know what the deal is, but a honda can go 90k miles, a ferrari 30k and a ducati 12k before the belts (all allegedly) made of similar kevlar reinforced material become dated. I'm not sure on the loading that one motor sees v. another ,but it may be a function of load v. lifetime, or it may be a matter of the harmonic dampeners/tensioners that really need the looking after, and the belts are changed as an afterthought. | ||
| JP Lavigne (Jpl)
Junior Member Username: Jpl Post Number: 95 Registered: 12-2001 |
Has anyone ever looked into converting the 3xx belt system into a chain system, or is it just not feasible technically. I would imagine that there would be a few thousand takers and it could be priced in the 5-7K range and still be a reasonable cost. The dealers might not like it but it sure would make for a more cost effective and reliable system. | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 668 Registered: 1-2001 |
>> JRV, is there an advantage to an interference head over a non-interference head ? << The only advantage I can think of is if you don't have to worry about the valves hitting the pistons when the belt breaks or is out of time, it's one less variable in the design equation that the engineer/designer has to worry about. This could probably lead to increased engine performance in some way. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2517 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV Hey remember the 308i oil consumers? Got a new engine for that one as well. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2385 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Yep, no question, tolerance for risk is a part of this<< or from the shops perspective: "ability to pay" { } | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2384 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>is there an advantage to an interference head over a non-interference head ?<< Oh yea...interference is everything...{ } >>Hey in 88 it was a 42K warantee claim but who's counting?<< Heck, there's nothing wrong with a new engine once in awhile...{ } | ||
| Sam Germana (Sjmst)
Junior Member Username: Sjmst Post Number: 70 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yep, no question, tolerance for risk is a part of this. (Still would like it if there were actual percentages/ "stats"....) | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2516 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV Hey in 88 it was a 42K warantee claim but who's counting? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2899 Registered: 9-2001 |
The TR I know of had a cambelt break due to a leaking cam seal which had weakened the belt over time. The cambelts had been changed by a dealer a little more than five years earlier. JRV, is there an advantage to an interference head over a non-interference head ? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2383 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>I would still be interested in some kind of hard data, not anecdotes, as to: Who has First hand knowledge of belts breaking? << Mr. Glickenhaus has already explained in AT LEAST 6 different "Belts who cares about freakin Belts" threads that his TR, Dealer Maintained by the Book broke belts and required a replacement engine. I guess he's tired of posting it over and over. Additionaly I've seen about a dozen broken belt aftermaths over the years and repaired the ensuing damage. Belts break for 2 simple reasons, UNLUCKY or IGNORING SERVICE INTERVALS and PRUDENT ADVICE. Like the sayin goes: How Lucky you feelin sport? { } | ||
| Sam Germana (Sjmst)
Junior Member Username: Sjmst Post Number: 68 Registered: 7-2003 |
There are so many variables, such as these cars are driven differently in manner and frequency than many other cars. I also respect Tom's opinion and statement "One other thing you must consider is if the belts have been changed before, were they done correctly." I would still be interested in some kind of hard data, not anecdotes, as to: Who has First hand knowledge of belts breaking? If so: 1) How many that you personally know of? 2) Miles since changed? 3) Time since changed? 4) Racing or street use of car? OK, we know they can and do break, but % and under what circumstances are key. That info may just not be available. So it is an individual decision. Follow the manual, or CW. Probably be a little cautious, but not too much. If I had, say, a 550 (and the budget to go with it) I'd probably just go ahead and have it done more frequently. As an aside, if I had bought an extended warranty when I bought the car, and the belt snapped at 42,000 miles and 8 years, I would think it would be covered. The manual says 52k. End of story (I would argue). | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2381 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>I've personally seen three cam belts break (non-ferrari) ALL were at idle. A Honda mechanic told me that most of those fail at idle for this reason too. << Recently, (2 months ago) the cam belt broke on my Mazda 626 at 70 mph in the fast lane with my foot on the gas peddle on my way to work. The belt only had 50K-60K miles on it. The really Cool part is that Mazdas like mine have Non-Interference motors so Tempting Fate and Playing Risky Business only cost me a Tow Truck Ride, a few hours, and $150 in parts { } >>1. Sitting for extended periods is the worst. The belt 'forms' to the pulleys - like tires flatspotting from sitting. << BS Theories and Hyperboly are unfreakingbelievably rampant amoung so called experts in the Auto Sales and Repair Business and need to be confirmed against scientific data. Please provide Scientific Data or Links to such showing the Destructive Testing of Belts in the various forms of use, non use, and/or abuse. Your Data and/or Links may go along way to helping us seperate fact from conjecture, and outright BS. Phil, do you have the updated/superceded part # for this new 550 miracle belt to help insure everyone here gets the best in the future. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 141 Registered: 7-2003 |
100% agree with all of that. Belts definitley break at idle more than while running hard. But mileage does put wear on your tensioner and drive bearings, so either way, regular inspections for whatever reason are the way to go. | ||
| Andy Barre (Abarre)
Junior Member Username: Abarre Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2003 |
I've always heard a few things (from some VERY knowledgable non-ferrari mechanics) about timing belts: 1. Sitting for extended periods is the worst. The belt 'forms' to the pulleys - like tires flatspotting from sitting. 2. Thermal cycling accounts for a lot of the wear. Hot - cold - hot... 3. LOW rpm's are the worst on the belts! The cam has little momentum and each cam lobe 'jolts' the belt. It runs smoother at rpm's, even though under more constant tension. I've personally seen three cam belts break (non-ferrari) ALL were at idle. A Honda mechanic told me that most of those fail at idle for this reason too. If this is true, running your car, regularly, for extended drives, at constant, high rpm's might be the best thing for the car. Personally, I bought my 3.2 Mondial with 18,000 miles and couldn't verify the last belt change. I changed them before I drove the thing ten miles. At 20-40 miles per week, I'll replace them again in five to six years. FWIW, I used to work for a camshaft, valvetrain company... Feel free to disagree, I'd love to hear counterarguments to any of this. | ||
| TOM BUCKLEY (Tom_b)
Junior Member Username: Tom_b Post Number: 53 Registered: 6-2003 |
I realize that time is a factor . But, unfortunately, my owners manual doesn't mention time. Only mileage. I drive between 15,000 and 20,000 miles per year. So I guess i'll be changing them again in 3 years. I just had them changed at 40,000 miles and 10 years. Tom | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2897 Registered: 9-2001 |
Tom, you're correct if you drive your Ferrari like the factory designed it to be driven and how a lot of europeans do drive theirs, which is about 17,500 miles a year. If you do that, changing your cam belts at 52,500 miles will be just fine. But, if you drive it 2k to 5k miles a year like most Americans, I believe a change at somewhere between 3 to 5 years is warranted. I have a friend who had a cam belt on his TR snap a little more than 5 years after he had them replaced at FOA. $30k later, he's back on the road. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1649 Registered: 11-2001 |
but tom, the belts can't last forever, can they? so in 100 years the belts will be fine if the mileage is under 52,500? most certainly not. the issue at hand is what really is "reasonable" time. apparently the early 550 manuals and the new 575 manuals stipulated THREE years or 30K miles. most of the manuals stipulate NOTHING about time. doody. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 137 Registered: 7-2003 |
Going back to the better belt request....... My original post said that Ferrari themselves now sell a better quality 550 maranello belt. It has kevlar strands running through it's length and is good for 5 years instead of 3, cant remember the mileage for them though, will ask. I just did the job last month, and it took me 4 hours (but I did have the radiator out for repair at the time). The tensioners were perfect (12,000km) and the belts cost about $300 OZ. | ||
| TOM BUCKLEY (Tom_b)
New member Username: Tom_b Post Number: 50 Registered: 6-2003 |
Dale, Follow the owners manual. In my case, 88 Mondial, it says to replace the timing belts at 52,500 miles. I believe that the Ferrari engineers know more about this than anyone here. No offense meant. Tom | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 334 Registered: 7-2002 |
Paul when the factory warranty runs out extend it with a 'Power' Warranty from Ferrari UK, then they'll pick up the tab if it breaks | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 356 Registered: 5-2002 |
Buy an older car with chains and then you don't worry. I hate worrying about cambelts snapping...so if one snaps, i'll junk the car...or worry about it then | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 330 Registered: 4-2003 |
Paul, I agree with JR. I wouldn't let this timing belt issue keep you from realizing your dream. Life is short. Death is long. You just need to be aware that the cost of ownership on a Ferrari is higher than, say, a Porsche. I wish that this wasn't true, but it is. Moroever, I doubt that any change is in the wind. Ferrari sells everything they make. The make even more money by racing. And, from what I have heard, they make even more money from licensing caps and t-shirts. Just go into this with your eyes open and enjoy the car. Good luck, Dale ps In another life, I was into old Triumph motorcycles big time. (Still own a 1970 Bonneville.) One lesson you learned the hard way was to never praise the damn things. Doing so was guaranteed to bring down the "Prince of Darkness" curse. So, in this light, "break a timing belt, ha!" | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2379 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>I will have the ability to buy a 1 year old 360 F1 with 3000 miles on it in about 10 days time<< Even in the most paranoid of terms you would still have 2 yrs and endless miles to prepare for a belt job, I don't quite understand the concern? | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1638 Registered: 11-2001 |
if it's out of warranty, then buggered for sure. doody. | ||
| Paul Gardner (Paulnwgb)
New member Username: Paulnwgb Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2003 |
Hi all I'm a newbie here, I've been lurking for a while, this is my first post. Another one of these belt threads :-( I will have the ability to buy a 1 year old 360 F1 with 3000 miles on it in about 10 days time. I'm buying from Maranello in the UK. I've been waiting for this day for an awful long time. But I am absolutely petrified reading all these horror stories about having to spend �15k rebuilding engines because of belts snapping. Absolutely petrified. I know it's Ferrari - I want the car, because it's a Ferrari - I know it's going to be nowhere near as reliable as BMW, Merc et al and I respect that. But this talk scares the living daylights out of me! If anything stops me buying, it will be this. Is it really that bad? If I do ensure the belt is replaced at the regular intervals and it snaps anyway - will Ferrari pick up the rebuild, or am I buggered? | ||
| Mark McKenzie (Redcar)
Junior Member Username: Redcar Post Number: 169 Registered: 4-2001 |
The original '97 Maintenance Book from my 550 calls for the belts to be replaced every 3 years. Reading it closely, I realized that, at the time, this schedule applied across the board to 355, 456 and 550. I'd like to see more opinions on the effect of time under a static load, with no use. Hell, if the things about to snap just sitting in the garage, what about the belts in boxes that were manufactured more than five years ago? Do they need "freshness dating" with an expiration date?? | ||
| Stanley DiGuiseppi (Standig)
Junior Member Username: Standig Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2002 |
I recently had my 13 year old 348 done. The car only has 10k miles on it and the engine had never been out. The belt looked fine. I was really surprised. But the tensioner's and the crank bearing were wiped out! | ||
| N'din (Abangdin)
New member Username: Abangdin Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2003 |
It's the case of owners beware. I changed the cam belt of my 355 at the end of the 3rd year even when my odometer reads only 7,000km. I just changed the cambelt of my 360 recently when the car became 3 years old and only 7,000km on the clock. In both cases the cambelt were almost perfect. But to me it's better to spend a bit on "maintainance" than to spend a lot more on repairs if the belt ever breaks. Yes you can stretch the life of the belt up to 5 years but there is always that risk that it will snap while you're doing 180 - 190 mph. I wouldn't want to take that risk. Would you. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2374 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dale, Agree it's ridiculas to replace belts at 12K miles. Problem is Ferrari's are interference motors...and as Phil points out, see much different use than the average freeway flyer. There has only been 1 "belt upgrade" that I'm aware of and that was 308 white belts to yellow and green to identify the differences. Even though there is not exactly a better belt, knowing where a new belt has been and how it got there gives a knowledge base that leads to it's own comfort zone. Mystery belt mileage & use is what gives mechanics like myself headaches whenever this question comes up, not simply how long do they last. That's why statements like the following are only given "as long as you don't quote me on this" by anonymous experts: >>His answer was unless you're going to the Virginia Hill Climb, wait a while. His sentiment is that the belts generally last for 50, and so long as they are inspected and looked, you should be ok. The catch, however, is that should anything go awry, you can be certain you'll be out more than the 5k. << (and dan don't get all twisted, I think it's funny and wish I had the luxury of being anonymous) I tend to disagree with the above and imo would NEVER trust a belt beyond 35K miles...now I have no way of knowing if Mileage readings where correct ...however, at 40K milesreading on Odo's I've seen belts that looked ready to go any second...which brings us to another good point, there is truly 'No Way' to Look at a Belt and know if it's still safe to run to redline for X amount of time/miles into the future, none. The only way to know what the law of averages holds is to know how old the belt is and what type of use it's had. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1636 Registered: 11-2001 |
but with ferrari's screaming to 7000+rpm for half their life only half? learn how to drive, dude! :-) :-) :-) excellent Q re: "better" replacement belts. any takers on that one? doody! | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 325 Registered: 4-2003 |
Okay, Okay, Okay, I'll replace the damn belt... It still feels silly to replace a belt at 12k miles. But, as the man once said, if you wanna run with the big dogs, you gotta lift yer leg high. But, again, are there any "improved belts" over the OEM for my 1998 Maranello? I'd rather not do this again in another 12k miles... Thanks in advance, Dale. | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Junior Member Username: Wax Post Number: 225 Registered: 7-2003 |
Bingo, Phil. Oversimplified Theory: Suppose a 3K RPM belt should be replaced at 60K Miles. Therefore a 6K RPM belt should be replaced at 30K Miles. Here's some simple number-crunching for both belts; 2 X 3K RPM belt = 2 x 3K RPM = halflife of 3K RPM belt = 30K Miles. 6K/3K = 2 = twice the "life" for 3KRPM belt = 60K Miles. Your RPM and Mileage may vary. With a Garage Queen, Age is a greater issue than Mileage: With a chastity belt on, she'll dry up. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 136 Registered: 7-2003 |
Something often overlooked is that most Ferrari's rev hard for their x amount of miles. Your average family car, with auto box rarely see's much more than 3000rpm and it's belt intervals are quite high, but with ferrari's screaming to 7000+rpm for half their life....maybe belts should be replaced after x million revolutions instead of road miles??????? | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1303 Registered: 9-2002 |
JRV, No, what I meant to say is this advise was passed on to me as personal. As such, I don't feel right in quoting him for the general masses. PM me if you want more info. --Dan | ||
| Sam Germana (Sjmst)
Junior Member Username: Sjmst Post Number: 63 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks, Tom. You make valid points. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 562 Registered: 9-2002 |
One other thing you must consider is if the belts have been changed before,were they done correctly. I have seen belts sevearly over tenstioned on 308/328s. Mostly the front bank belt. It seems some mechanics think the thighter the better. WRONG!! a belt must have some slack in order to do it's job correctly, and last the estimated time between changes. An over tensioned belt can be just as bad as a belt that has not been changed in 10 years!! Again.. for your own peice of mind and for the sake of your wallet change them. You'r obviously concered enough to post a question about it so you must be thinking about it to much. | ||
| Sam Germana (Sjmst)
Junior Member Username: Sjmst Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2003 |
That is good information. I certainly would not go more than the manual says (as it seems perhaps the 348 owner did). Thanks. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2373 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>One of the premier indeps in the country (I will withhold his name for privacy's sake)<< A Secret Premier Expert????? lol So can I get a different handle and remain anonymous for whenever I feel like handing out advice I don't want to be held accountable for later??? | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 561 Registered: 9-2002 |
This 348 had 42 or 45k showing on the clock. Notice the 100k is KM not miles. That works out to 62k miles. The car was not driven that hard at all and he seemed to think that if he babied the car then everything should be o.k. WRONG!! I think the belts should be changed at the lastest every five years regardless of mileage. If you drive hard then every 3 years. Remember your dealing with an 60 thousand dollar engine. Spend the money and save yourself a disaster. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1300 Registered: 9-2002 |
One of the premier indeps in the country (I will withhold his name for privacy's sake) helped me make the decision, as I am in the same boat. His answer was unless you're going to the Virginia Hill Climb, wait a while. His sentiment is that the belts generally last for 50, and so long as they are inspected and looked, you should be ok. The catch, however, is that should anything go awry, you can be certain you'll be out more than the 5k. What am I doing? The 30k anyways. I see it this way: spend the money on an issue that will need to be covered sometime soon as it is, and just get it over with. Then I will worry about it after 5 more years. --Dan | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2371 Registered: 11-2002 |
This Belt issue is SOOOOoooo Loaded no tech/mechanic in their right mind would touch it with a ten foot pole { } One thing that has been proven historically thus far,...no one knows when they will break, otherwise they would have them changed just prior to them breaking to get all the miles they possibly could between services and save $$$$ If there was a definative answer on miles/use/climate/heat cycles/time/ozone/luck, the book would say: *replace just prior to breaking ;-) | ||
| Sam Germana (Sjmst)
Junior Member Username: Sjmst Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2003 |
OK, there is a reponse to the request for first hand knowledge. So, if I may take the statement literally, it would seem that 100,000 miles is out of the question; OK, that comports with the mnanual. Now we are getting somewhere. Anyone seen a belt break at 5 years? If so, the mileage? | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 560 Registered: 9-2002 |
I had a customers 348 snap the belt once..$16,000 later he had his car back. He was of the thinking that if his Honda could go 100k without changing the belts then so should the Ferrari. Boy was he wrong. | ||
| Sam Germana (Sjmst)
Junior Member Username: Sjmst Post Number: 60 Registered: 7-2003 |
Back to the question: Who has First hand knowledge of belts breaking? If so: 1) How many that you personally know of? 2) Miles since changed? 3) Time since changed? 4) Racing or street use of car? I'm not trying to be a cynic, just seeking information. I hear the CW, and am looking for its basis. My OM says 52,000 miles, no mention of time. If anyone can tell me that my belt with only 5,000 miles will break, based on tried and true experience, that would be helpful to know. $4,000 for unecesary work is a lot, even for some Ferrari owners. Thanks Sam | ||
| Jim Avery (Boxer12)
Junior Member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 173 Registered: 6-2003 |
I would go with 5 yrs. What if owner #2 actually drove the car 15,000 miles with the speedo disconnected?? (Besides, a Ferrari tech with years of experience, including 24 hrs of LeMans teams, has personally warned me it isn't worth the risk as he has seen the belts break and been paid the $$$$ to rebuild the engine) | ||
| Al LaPeter (Lapeter)
Junior Member Username: Lapeter Post Number: 133 Registered: 6-2002 |
As an owner of a 355, the owners manuel states replace after 30,000 miles. No mention of five years or any years. Has a "new cottage industry" developed in changing timing belts for $6,000. I question if the need for other than racing cars, need to be done sooner. Any 355's that have blown the timing belts under normal driving situations? Please chime in. | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 321 Registered: 4-2003 |
Steve: Here's what the OM says about timing belts on a 550 " 5,000 Inspect and Adjust 15,000 Inspect* 30,000 Replace* 45,000 Inspect* 60,000 Replace* 75,000 Inspect* 90,000 Replace* 105,000 Inspect* Operations marked with an asterisk (*) are not required if the car is driven under ideal conditions but should be performed if the car is driven either in heavy traffic conditions or on dusty and/or sandy roads. Note: the emission warranty and the manufacturer's recall liability are not affected if the customer fails to perform operations marked with an asterisk (*)." Clear as a bell, huh? Dave: I take it that you have done yours, yes/no/maybe? Plus, I noticed that you didn't take the bait on the issue of who should do the service. Come on, I dare ya, ha! Doody: >>i'd be much more interested in hearing whether or not ANYBODY has yet EVER heard of a 550 (excepting race cars, of course) blowing its tensioners or timing belt. i have not<< As usual, you nailed it, i.e., is the schedule in the OM just CYA? I'd love to hear from some techs on this. Phil: Here's my problem with this whole thing, namely breaking timing belts is s-o-o-o 80s. Come on, we're not talking about cutting edge stuff here. I assume that Ferrari buys its belts from a job shop that makes belts for everybody else in the world. So what's the problem? 30,000 miles for the life of a timing belt? Get outta here. And what's the deal about 5 years? My car has averaged a little over 2,000 a year before I brought it. (Trust me. It gets driven more than that now.) So why is the timing belt potentially shot? Finally, if I replace the timing belt (which may or may not need replacing, but this whole thing makes me very paranoid so I'll probably replace the belt because, if I have to pay to have the engine rebuilt after it eats its values due to the belt breaking, my wife will not kill me. She will instead whip me raw with said broken timing belt and then stretch me over a red ant bed as the beginning punishment), why would I replace it with a belt that is due to break in another 30,000 miles? I realize that there is not much after market stuff for 550s; but jeepers creepers, a timing belt that self destructs in 5 years? I'd love to hear more of your thoughts. Dale | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 559 Registered: 9-2002 |
Doody...the job is much easier on the 550/456 cars, but the prices are close due to cost of the parts. I can't remember excatly but I beleive the parts alone were close to 3k | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 135 Registered: 7-2003 |
I wasn't even aware, until last month (when I did a 550 belt job), that Ferrari have introduced kevlar strands into their 550 cambelts as replacement parts. These are good for 5 years according to ferrari as opposed to the 3 years for previously supplied belts. You know the answer to your question already....buried deep in your conscience, and it will wake you at night if you ignore it. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1634 Registered: 11-2001 |
ze_shark - my understanding is that a 550 major is basically the same price as a 355 major - though it doesn't require the engine-out. roughly $5K. can anybody comment on this? and any answers to my initial query are very welcome too!! doody. | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
New member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2003 |
Considering the relatively cheap labour cost of the timing belt replacement on a 550 (in comparison with the mid-engined V8s), I'd wonder if taking chances is worth it. Not that long ago, german cars (Audi, VW) required 60K km (= less than 40K miles) between replacements. Ferrari is not that far in this particular area. A definitive YES. | ||
| Sam Germana (Sjmst)
Junior Member Username: Sjmst Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2003 |
I'm interested in the answer to Mr. Doody's question. Who knows (first hand knowledge) of timing belts breaking and the mileage/time since their last replacement? | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1633 Registered: 11-2001 |
the word on the street is that the timing belt must be replaced by 30k miles or 5 years i think that's an over-statement. the conventional wisdom is generally "30K or 5 years" but i've never heard anything as strong as "must". as to the owners manual, it does not stipulate times - just mileage. apparently the 575 manual stipulates mileage OR time, and it lists the timing belt at 3 years or something that even factory shops purportedly think is crazy. i'd be much more interested in hearing whether or not ANYBODY has yet EVER heard of a 550 (excepting race cars, of course) blowing its tensioners or timing belt. i have not. doody. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 999 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yes | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1146 Registered: 10-2001 |
Non owner's response who reads a lot: It's the tensioners on that give out, not the belt, at least on the 308's. Ask if this applies to the 550. | ||
| Dave (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 588 Registered: 4-2001 |
Yes! Now for the mealy-mouse response... Consult your owners manual for the maintance schedule of any car... Dale, it sounds like the last two owners of the car took care of it and had the maintance performed as scheduled. You would change the oil when it was dirty, or the tires when worn, then why not a belt? | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2080 Registered: 1-2001 |
What's the written "spec" in your respective 550 OMs? (Not saying that it's right, but just curious about what is shown.) | ||
| Mark McKenzie (Redcar)
Junior Member Username: Redcar Post Number: 167 Registered: 4-2001 |
I'm very anxious to see the returns on this election, as I just bought into a similar conundrum. Saturday I picked up a 1997 Euro 550 with 12,000 miles, including 1,500 last weekend. The car runs perfectly, but I don�t know about the recalls, and I�m confident the belts haven�t been done. I was told, although not by an expert, that the belt life was actually only THREE years! Based on that my car should now be getting its third set of belts??? What do the experts think? | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 319 Registered: 4-2003 |
I'm not putting this in the technical section because I probably wouldn't understand the responses. (Seeing me with a wrench in hand is a scary sight.) Okay, here's the facts: I own a U.S. 1998 550 with, say, 12k miles on it. The 5K and 15K services has been done. The ownership history is: Owner #1 - Brand new, drives 9k miles in 2 years. Owner #2 - drives 750 miles in 2.5 years. Owner #3 - Dat's me. I brought the car in May and am planning on driving to Pebble Beach next Summer. As far as I know, the car has never been tracked. But I would have to assume that it has been driven hard by the previous owners. I know that I do (after a proper warm up, of course.) The car has always been serviced by FOH and is fully sorted out, e.g., wheel recall, hoses, and so forth. Maybe I shouldn't say this out loud, but everything is working perfectly, even the check engine light goes out. From my research on past threads, the word on the street is that the timing belt must be replaced by 30k miles or 5 years, whichever comes first. Personally, I have a problem with this urban myth because I would like to think that a timing belt and its related bits and pieces would last more than 5 years. BUT, the downside is a complete rebuild if this rubber band breaks. So, first question is: Do I go ahead and have the timing belt done now? Yes _____ or No _______ (Notice I'm not asking for any engineer technobabble or other mealy-mouse responses. Will you please just answer the question as yes or no? Your honor, the witness is being unresponsive...) Assuming a yes answer, are there any after market belts that will last longer than 5 years? (Geeze Louise, I'm still having a hard time with this 5 year thing. What's the story here? Is the company that supplies the OEM belts owned by one of Enzo's old gal friends?) Last question: Should I have this done at the dealership or by a qualified private tech? (Let's say that you know of a very highly qualified technican in your area who also happens to be, shall we say, a tad tempermental at times. In fact, this tortured soul seems to spend more time taking pictures of scantily clad women in his shop and posting them on FC than actually working on cars, ha!) Seriously, though, based on your responses, I'm gonna spend some serious dinero (that's Spanish for money) on this car if I have this service done. So please carefully consider your vote before responding. (For those of you on the left coast, this is wa-y-y-y more serious than your upcoming recall election.) Thanks in advance, Dale |