| Author |
Message |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2273
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 4:46 pm: | |
In the software development world everyone accepts that there's not a 100% productivity factor. Resources are only expected to have 60-70% of the 40 hour week as adding value. The reason it's important to be straight forward about it is for estimating. When you estimate a task you always base on 100% productivity. However, that's why so many projects go over budget, not because they didn't estimate the task accurately, but because they think one resource will be able to knock 40 hours off that task each week.
I think the same factoring could work to the benefit of auto techs. Also, never ever is an estimate one number, it's always a +/- % around a number. The auto tech can give an estimate divided by 0.7 and then assign a +/- % based on confidence.
In the long run things work out the same, because all that uncertainty is built into higher hourly rates. I know great techs that would accept only $35 an hour if the job was 9 to 5, M thru F.
A great quick and easy estimating tool is the PERT method, which is...
(High estimate + (4 * Standard estimate) + Low estimate) / 6 |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1426
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 4:19 pm: | |
wil
welcome to the site, I have visited your site and heard about your good work. Now if I move down by Bruce you may see much more of me |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2672
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 4:14 pm: | |
I know a ferrari mechanic that owns a 308. The mechanics are usually pretty cool guys. All of them are very chill and if you go to the dealership often/ spend money there, they will take time out to talk to you even though it is taking away from their pay. No surprise that there are a fair amount of Italians involved in Ferrari, there are also a fair number of south Americans as mechanics. For the most part, I would much rather hang out with the mechanics than salesman. Their are exceptions, but of course the mechanics are a lot more down to earth and know a lot more about the cars. Salesman see what cars come in and out, the mechanics actually see what cars are a pain in the ass to work on, shoddily put together, fragile, etc. You can learn a lot from them. To describe them, most drive Japanese cars or American cars that are a couple years old, some have a sports car that they have worked on themselves. They're pretty normal guys. The head mechanics are usually obsessed with cars or engines and highly compulsive.
You guys in the NY/NJ area should check out Classic Coach. It's the best shop in the area, better than the dealerships hands down. They have a different approach to the cars than the dealerships do and it equals better work and care. If you come by around 1pm on Saturdays they are usually eating lunch. Saturdays are much more relaxed. |
Wil de Groot (Wildegroot)
New member
Username: Wildegroot
Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 3:37 pm: | |
OK Bruce, you know our methods! I'm just the happy typist here 8D
Sandy |
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 923
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 1:01 pm: | |
sandy
who is typing?? is wil on his lunch break?? ;0)
regards always,
bruce |
Wil de Groot (Wildegroot)
New member
Username: Wildegroot
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:57 pm: | |
Bruce,
Greetings to you too and thanks for the good words. Always appreciated. I hope the nice driving weather holds out for a good while.
Regards, Wil
Hi Bruce! So this is where you hang out when you're not in your TR. Sandy |
Wil de Groot (Wildegroot)
New member
Username: Wildegroot
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:40 pm: | |
Most of us here drive pickup trucks because we work on much fancier stuff than we can afford so why bother. Next time you see an F40 parked between the Escorts and Cavaliers let me know. |
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 918
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 6:09 am: | |
btw, wil degroot is telling the truth,hes the best.. hes my mechanic for my tr..
hi wil...
bruce |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 2042
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 4:05 am: | |
I know one that does. |
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie
Post Number: 257
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:20 pm: | |
Speaking of technicians, I have noticed that very little is actually said about the techs in Ferrari shops. The salesmen and shop managers are often spoken about, but the actual mechanics themselves seem like unknown entities or magic elves that do the work but are seldom seen or heard from. I wonder how many Ferrari mechanics actually own a Ferrari? You know the old joke about the shoe cobbler's kids having to run around barefoot. Do Ferrari mechanics drive Chevys?
|
Wil de Groot (Wildegroot)
New member
Username: Wildegroot
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:12 pm: | |
A new guy throwing in my two cents. I read Ed's entry about estimates and agree with him 100%. I'm an independent Ferrari specialist in NJ ($75/hr) where we are required by law to have the customer waive their right to an estimate if an estimate is not feasable.
On a complicated and specialized machine like a Ferrari it's not possible to come up with a labor and parts estimate and do the best job that you can, which is expected. Talk to anybody who is honest about flat rate work and you'll hear horror stores about pry bars, hammers, chisles and air tools. Anything to get the job out of the door within budget. We see the sad results of that kind of work coming in frequently.
I have totally honest relationships with my customers and they get exactly what they pay for. $75 an hour is not cheap but neither is all the specialized equipment nor the knowlegeable and enthusiastic technicians who expect and deserve a decent pay check, medical insurance, etc.
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bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 912
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 11:26 am: | |
BILL V
IT WAS 85.00 ABOUT 3 MONTHS AGO,ANYWAY THEY RUN A SPECIAL DURING SLOW, WINTER MONTHS AT ABOUT 15% OFF, SO A LOT OF PEOPLE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.
BRUCE |
Bill V. (Doc)
Junior Member
Username: Doc
Post Number: 144
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 11:18 am: | |
Bruce- Wide World of Cars is now $90/hr. |
Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member
Username: Davewapinski
Post Number: 345
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 11:17 am: | |
I think the hard part is finding a reliable, trustworthy mechanic.
I think most of us have paid for work not done, parts not replaced, and inflated times.
Also many of us have had to take vehicles to other guarages to have mistakes done at the first guarage fixed.
It was once told to me that the only difference between a dealer and a good independant shop is the quality of their donnuts. Many times the independant shop is better.
I do not mind higher rates if I know I am being treated fairly.
There has to be some reason for the higher rates.
I do mind higher rates if I am getting ripped off. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 683
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 10:17 am: | |
Martin & Ed:
I too sometimes bill time. I bill for the actual time spent, not the time doing those odd things which while important are not directly related to the job. That means that if I am working on something full time, I'm lucky to bill 30 hours per week, although I may be work 50 hours on that project during that time.
I can do that by adjusting the billig rate to what suits me (depending upon the case, I bill between $300 and 400 per hour.). That allows me to bill my actual time, and make sufficient money to pay the bills, a leave a little for me. My clients know what they are paying and what I am doing. If I billed a lower rate but more hours, I would be lying to them, because in the end, the bill would be the same or higher. Consumers have the right to know what you are charging, and how long the job is estimated to take. Fibbing about the time is a dishonest practice and is outlawed in California, unless there is disclosure. IMHO
Art |
Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 2861
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 9:10 am: | |
As a business owner I see Eds point fully. The book rate is usually higher than what is actually spend in doing the repair but there is a lot of other stuff that is in preperation and in cleaning that is taken for granted by the customers. Writting up the order, getting the car on the lift, ordering parts, receiving parts etc.
The oly time I disagree with book is when you have several things done on your car at the same time and lets say for both you have to remove the wheels. Time to remove wheels is set at 20 minutes (example) and time to fix the problem is 40 min. The mechanic is trying to charge you 2h instead of 1h40min.
Which comes back to honest or dishonest mechanics. I am happy to have a mechanic that goes by actual time and I trust him. Further he lets me bring my own parts, although he makes $$$ of the parts as well. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 146
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 12:33 am: | |
Jim, therein lies the foundation for my earlier post (on this thread). What price peace of mind? At least with a dealer you have the resources, both financial and human, to increase the likelihood of a good outcome. Yes, you might pay more, but based on various threads and my own research, not a great deal more.
However, if you have a relationship with an independent such as Edward Gault (an Ayn Rand fan, I'm sure) with whom you have experience and trust, then there is no debate. It is like choosing a doctor. Do you bargan hunt for your child's neurosurgeon? If the one you trust proves to be the low cost provider - great. But I would not use price as the only criteria.
Jim S. |
Jim E (Jimpo1)
Member
Username: Jimpo1
Post Number: 784
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 9:57 pm: | |
The problem most of us have Ed is FINDING a reputable place that you can rely on. I have one for my Ferrari, but don't for my other cars. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 2038
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 9:00 pm: | |
There has been talk of that same estimate system here as well. If they implement it, it will almost immediately raise the hourly rates at least 25%. For example, if I tear down a car and find additional work needed and cannot get in touch with the customer for authorization, then who is going to pay me for my time that I cannot work and my bay that is tied up because the customer cannot be located? Answer, EVERYBODY! This happens quite often too. We have a customer that brings their car in and requests that we call them after we find the problem and give them a price before we do the repairs. We call the number they gave us and they are not there, or no answer. Now what do you do? A productive bay is filled, no authorization, the parts have to be ordered before the cut off time and the customer is out shopping. This is not the Technicians nor the owners fault and somebody is going to have to pay for the lost productivity. Also if an estimate has to be given then the books to figure the time will have to be purchased and the time to figure and process the paper work will have to be paid for and by who? The customer. The best thing a consumer can do is find a reputable place to service their vehicle, staffed by employees that have knowledge and a conscience, and stick with them. Everyone will save money and get their car repaired that way. I have 30+ years of proof. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 681
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 7:04 pm: | |
Ed:
Perhaps you are right, but I know too many guys who work flat rate, who tell me how much they are earning with that system. They do work for new car dealers, and the cars are new, so that may be a factor.
In California, you are required by the Bureau of Automotive Repair, and its authorizing legislation to provide a written estimate. Additionally, if the estimate changes upward, you must contact the owner, and obtain his or her permission for the extra charges. That should be done in writing, or if done orally, you must document the change on the back of the work order, putting the time of the discussion, the new amount agreed upon, and the name of the individual you spoke to. If you do not strictly comply with those requirements, you can't collect a penny on your work, you can't hold the car, you have just become a doner.
LIfe is South Carolina must be a bit different than here.
Art |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 2037
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 6:36 pm: | |
Flat rate book times are figured with hand tools only, this is true. However, the times are also figured on a brand new car when you are using a factory time guide. There is a lot of difference in working on a new car versus an older car. Bolts rust, grease and grime accumulate, and sometimes things get bent that require additional time that is impossible to predict in a book. For these reasons I do not use books to figure my time for a job. I use actual working time and rely on my customers to trust me. I will give an estimate in a lot of cases if it is a frequently done repair, and I have fixed dollar average pricing on a lot of repairs that may take more or less time to accomplish. It is actually more expensive to the customer for me to give an exact estimate because of the time it takes to accumulate all the parts and labor prices. Who pays for the time to look up all the prices? The customer. The customer that brings their car into my shop and tells me what they want done and not ask prices will come out cheaper than someone who tries to nail down every cent that the repair will cost. It is a rare occurance that the average technician will work a 40 hour week and flag 40 hours pay. There is too much down time in moving from job to job and acquiring parts and listening to the customer Etc.Etc. He does not get paid to clean up his tools or work area nor find a dropped bolt or lost tool or to purchase an air tool. Flat rate time is figured for a perfect technician to do a perfect job with no problems which rarely happens. If you will consider how much it costs for an aspiring Technician to start to work with the investment and dedication that it takes, it is a miracle that there are enough Techs. to fill the jobs. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 680
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 2:23 pm: | |
The hourly rate quoted isn't what they are charging you. There is a flat rate book which estimates the time. You are charged the hourly rate times what the flat rate book shows. HOWEVER a good mechanic can generally beat those times by a substantial amount, because as I understand it, those rates are based upon no power tools. You therefore end up paying 2, maybe 3 times what the hourly rate is. Almost all dealerships use that formula and pay their mechanics a percentage of the charge. Take a careful look at the work order, and you'll note the language that tells you what they are doing.
Art |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1371
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 2:07 pm: | |
I believe Ferrari of Atlanta has recently raised its hourly rate to $95.00 per hour. |
Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 2845
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 2:00 pm: | |
Bacchus Auto in Hollywood / Florida
Factory trained Lambo and Lotus
$ 50/h for me $ 70/h for others.
|
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet
Post Number: 14
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 1:07 pm: | |
Ship your F's to Holland official dealer charges �55 /hr |
Eric Eiland (Eric308gtsiqv)
Member
Username: Eric308gtsiqv
Post Number: 415
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:43 pm: | |
DaveL is right-on-the-money about European Sports Car Service in Orlando, FL! I went there based on his recommendation (and a brief visit), and was extremely satisfied with the service I received. Their rates were very reasonable, and they were always up-front about any needed services. If they encountered any additional mechanical problems that needed to be addressed, or additional parts needed, they always gave me a phone call to discuss and let me decide what they should do and how much it would cost extra. Needless to say, they have a customer for life here.
Oops...sorry to ramble a little off-topic here, but just wanted to point out that there are alternatives to the dealer here, with rates that are considerably less than those mentioned in this thread.
|
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 1379
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 10:58 am: | |
ouch |
Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member
Username: Manu
Post Number: 442
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 10:47 am: | |
Oh and Steve, you're not wrong.
The Turbocharged Volvo I borrow from my father got back to me today after a service.
Had new brakes at the rear and a four wheel alignment and 4 tyres. I paid:
$1638
And no it's not funny. |
Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member
Username: Manu
Post Number: 441
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 10:31 am: | |
Maranello Sales:
�82.50 per hour
�110.00 per hour (for F50/F40)
Remember fellas - this is GBP Sterling.
|
Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member
Username: Davel
Post Number: 214
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 10:01 am: | |
Amazing prices!! Ive been able to get my Lotus serviced for rates as low as 50.00 per hour. Also European Sports Car in Orlando Florida is less than $70.00 per hour on Ferrari. Eric Eiland from this forum had a major service there on his QV and he is way happy with European. If you live in the Orlando/Central Florida area give them a try |
Steve Smith (Steve308)
New member
Username: Steve308
Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 8:16 am: | |
FWIW: A survey I saw found the average here in the UK is equivalent to $125 hr, but get this - The same survey found VOLVO dealers charge their customers more like $140 hr!
Can you imagine paying that just for the dubious priviledge of driving the ultimate dull-mobile? |
Theo Pappas (Theo)
New member
Username: Theo
Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 23, 2002 - 7:24 am: | |
Ferrari of New England is $90/hr. |
William Huber (Solipsist)
Member
Username: Solipsist
Post Number: 375
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:35 pm: | |
I wonder if some of these dealers are paying flag hours to their employees? Does anyone know? |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 144
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 9:44 pm: | |
When evaluating service options, price is one consideration. Have others considered the "resale" value of work performed by an independent versus an authorized dealer? I had work done at Ferrari of Orange County, and was very pleased with the quality of work, and the hospitality afforded me. However, I suspect I could have saved 10% (maximum - maybe) on the job (30k TR service) if I had searched for a qualified independent. If I ever choose to sell the car, having documentation of the 30k from an authorized dealer, and warranty for "gross negligence" (my words) seems to bring some value.
I did have work done on my Dino by an independent, and was extraordinarily displeased with unscrupulous (at best) or inept work. This man is located in Orange County, and if anyone is entertaining work down here, feel free to e-mail me to find out who NOT to send your car to. I have always thought of independents, but my experience with Ferrari of Orange County changed my mind. Just seems to offer a more consistent quality of service at the same or slightly higher price. I spent several hours speaking with Chris and Bill and other mechanics at Ferrari of Orange County, and was very impressed with their knowledge and genuine love for the cars - both new and old.
Edward, I assume from your remarks that you are an independent Ferrari service source. Have you encountered this thinking in customers shopping for the "right" place to have their work done?
Jim S. |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Junior Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 109
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 3:00 pm: | |
Ferrari in Woodland Hills is $125.00 /hour |
David Albright (Dalbright)
Member
Username: Dalbright
Post Number: 401
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 9:54 am: | |
FoW is $101/hr |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 2022
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 8:29 am: | |
I charge $60.00 for customers with a good attitude. Variable higher rates for others. |
Brian stewart (Eurocardoc)
Member
Username: Eurocardoc
Post Number: 379
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 8:13 am: | |
my shop, an independent, charges $72/hr |
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 883
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 7:16 am: | |
wwoc in ny is 85.00
algar ferrari in philly is 83.00
my mechanic here in flemington, nj is 75.00
regards,
bruce |
martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member
Username: Mw360
Post Number: 559
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, September 20, 2002 - 11:03 pm: | |
Forza article quotes F of San Fran as charging $120/hr.Here in Portland Oregon its $83/hr.
What is it in your nearest dealership? |