| Author | Message | ||
| DMC (Machinnes)
New member Username: Machinnes Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2002 |
In a follow up about dealer problems. The Oregon dealer has now gone back on their verbal agreement to me for a (very small) parts/service credit on the 300 mile joy ride they had taken while my car has in for service. This problem has been brought up with FNA who have now refused to step in to and deal with this problem. Honesty,integrity and morals seem to be a thing of the past for some FNA dealers and Ferrari seems to be at least in my case turning, their heads on their customers. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 377 Registered: 4-2002 |
Peter, I was enjoying just reading this thread but your view on the value of a handshake I will not take without adding comment. You should be ashamed of yourself, a handshake on a deal should seal it, until there is at least some discussion between the two parties as to why there is a go back! I can't believe someone could own up to being so low on morals, now I can believe such people exist. Thankfully I think you hold a minority viewpoint, | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
New member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2002 |
DMC, in what part of the country do you reside? | ||
| DMC (Machinnes)
New member Username: Machinnes Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2002 |
I am a new owner to a 355 and the two Ferrari dealers I have worked with have been the worst. While on vacation the dealer decided to use my gas and go for a 300 mile joy ride instead of working on my emisson problem. They stated the sevice person had written down the wrong milage due to a medical condition, funny thing is, I wrote down the same mileage when I dropped the car off. I have owned many cars and have dealt with many service people and not once has something like this ever happened. I will never use a Ferrari dealer again. BEWARE | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 613 Registered: 12-2001 |
Just when you thought this thread was dead and gone: As i said last week, i emailed and faxed Royal Palm, notifying them of this thread and inviting their response. So far.... Nada. If they do respond, it might be worth pursuing, but otherwise, this particular adventure is over and i thank all of you for your responses and insight. I would like to respond to a couple of the postings which suggested that absent a downpayment, i have nothing to ••••• about. If i had pursued this deal alone, as a consumer, i would have to agree, since customers do all sorts of lame, stupid things and never get held responsible. But, when i got my good friend the broker to step in at the outset, and work with these guys, i assumed (and he did), that there was a different standard at play. I have bought cars, sight unseen, on my word, without a deposit (Algar certainly trusted me in this respect, as i did them), and i believe, as between dealers and brokers, working directly with one another, there is often little need for a showing of good faith via a deposit. If there were such a need, i also assume that Royal Palm would have asked for one, and i would have wired or fedX'ed payment immediatement. I truly do understand the dealer's predicament, here, but having bought, i am told, at least two cars from Eddie, the broker, based only on a promise, Royal Palm certainly had a course of dealing with Eddie which, at a minimum, should have included the courtesy of a phone call, before concluding a deal with another buyer. I'll keep you posted when i find the right daytona. In the meantime, thanks-all, even those of you who expressed the dealer's side of things. | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 70 Registered: 8-2002 |
These issues are great for the Ferrari consumer. Fchat can help us all. We should have guidelines somewhere in fchat for this. Problems like these are someitmes real and sometimes percieved by the cutomer. I say the customer should just post the facts her on this board with no personal coloring of the issue. We can all decide for ourselves whether a good action or bad action takes place. We don't need the customer to tell us that. Then the business should be notified that they are on Fchat and tell their side. This would accomplish several things. 1) if either pricipal colorizes the event usually that alone will get your BS meter alerted. 2)we may learn about standard business behavior and things to watchout for 3)keep businesses on theri toes because we as a group are watching. That being said real customer service demands that the customer is always right. The business can always aford customer service because it sells retail and buys wholesale. Examples are they pay about $20/hr but charge $75 for shop labor. They say they have large overhead like the cost of lifts. Yes but a twin post lift is $5000.00 and the major on a 355 is $5000.00 so they breakeven on the first use. That $5000 service was less than $500 in parts. We buy a clutch retail for $1500.00 and they charge $3-5000 to put it in. They buy the clutch for ???700 bucks. A rebuild on a 348 gearbox was quoted to one friend at 15,000.00. The parts $2000.00 I'm no mechanic and it took me a weekend to rebuild so where is the $13,000.00 justification in profit? Business who want to stay in business build in profit for their work. Customer service is a part of doing business. Bad custoemr service is greed. We don't need those people. Everyone should be alerted. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3321 Registered: 5-2001 |
I hear you and from what you are telling me, you are 100% right! As I said bad business practice but more and more common these days. | ||
| Peter Topman (Peter_topman)
New member Username: Peter_topman Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2002 |
Personally, after reading the initial post...and unless the dealer has a constant habit of doing this.....I don't feel the dealer did anything wrong. To me it's simple = first person who comes with the money gets the car. Handshakes mean nothing. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 607 Registered: 12-2001 |
That's funny. I talked to Jay, too, with Eddie on the line, shortly after we learned that the car was going to another buyer. Jay claimed not to know about the details of either deal, cause Walter was handling it. So, may be Jay, who was at all times a gentleman on the phone, can explain the conduct of his partner/colleague.But ultimately, as i think i pointed out earlier, they didn't just •••• me, they •••••• Eddie. And he does alot more business in cars than me. So, let Jay justify it to Eddie as well. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3316 Registered: 5-2001 |
William, just talked to Jayat Royal Palm. Funny I have a deal going with him as well so I thought I will give him a call and tell him to post here. Hope he will. there appears to be have been some miscommunication. Let him explain. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 606 Registered: 12-2001 |
TomD: no question about it. I'm sure that's precisely what happened. TomD and Will: Yep, i have spoken to Tom P. in the past, i was aware of that car at the time, and i know about his Astons. Never drove one, though. really like that db4 era gt thing, but as an open car. He had one with hi-performance specs recently, that went for somewhere around 250k. I think the same car was at Pebble Beach. | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2002 |
You are right Tom. I never looked at that part of the site. Tom drove it himself for a period of time. When I looked it was 175? Will | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1883 Registered: 9-2001 |
yeah I think he has a pic of it on his website | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2002 |
wm, Tom Papadopolous at Autosport Design in Mineola moved a nice cut car about two years ago. Maybe the buyer is ready to change out. He is way big in Astons as well. Number is 516-248-0066. Will | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1882 Registered: 9-2001 |
If I might be so presumptuous, the fact the dealer was probably giving you cash in the deal and taking on inventory might have made him accept the other offer faster. Maybe he had a buyer for your 550b on the other end that fell through. We can only speculate good luck in your search | ||
| Patrick Pasqualini (Enzo)
Junior Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hey i will always trade you for my 66 Lemans Convert | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 605 Registered: 12-2001 |
Royal Palm is in Pompano. And, yeah, i mean a conversion from a coupe. As to the "good ones" there seems to be a double whammy, since you not only have to worry about the condition and provenance of the car, but who did the conversion, and how well. I have been researching this, and seeking advice from various people in the know. I also just got my copy of Braden/Roush book, which is terrific. As to the relative merits of the cars, i frankly don't wanna spend the money for a "real" spyder; i am also gonna drive the thing, and am prepared to have it worked on (a little) to make it a really good driver. I have gone up and down and sideways and forward and backwards with these cars and seem to be in the mood for a vintage muscle car. Also, since i am not currently trying to set any land speed records, the older car, with its lower performance threshold, will be fun. (I have been unable to scare myself in the barchetta so far, which is scary). I drove the hell out of my Maranello, and while it was huge in performance, it always felt a little soft. I also find the real Cobras appealing, but hardly the stuff for long touring, and there are too many kits. A high performance older Aston might also be interesting, but... | ||
| Patrick Pasqualini (Enzo)
Junior Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 82 Registered: 2-2002 |
Whart- That would be a hell of a car. Seems you have a taste for some pretty kick ass cars. I mean all F-cars are but you seem to pick some great ones. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3312 Registered: 5-2001 |
"good cut" meaning a Coupe converted to Convertible? Royal Palm being Royal Palm Motor Sports in Pompano? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 603 Registered: 12-2001 |
Martin: sorry to misattribute the idea to you.Martin and Pat: a good cut daytona. | ||
| Patrick Pasqualini (Enzo)
Junior Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2002 |
Whart you never said what kind of car you were looking at. Do you mind me asking? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3311 Registered: 5-2001 |
WHart, to clarify it was not my initial idea with the e-mail contact to the dealer and let them defend themselves. Somebody else made that prior to me, I just picked the idea up again. To me it does not matter if there is another buyer or not. Stu, that would mean that you would agree to sell the car to somebody else while you have a deal worked out with somebody already that you have accepted. The second somebody tells me they send the car to PPI the car is not for sale at that moment, deposit or not. If a buyer spends the $200 for the PPI they have enough interest to be given the courtesy to have a first shot. As for having a broker involved, same here. ONce you deal with a legit broker the least thing that one should expect is to call said broker and have him afirm how serious his buyer (WHart) is. I rather make a deal with the broker and have him and his buyer happy than try to get a few bucks more out of the deal. The broker will be a repeat customer for life if you treat him right. The customer maybe! This is the philosophy difference that exist in business today. Too many think about today and not about tomorrow. Now to details, I woud love to hear the other side and hopefully Royal Palm will give their opinion. Is that Royal Palm Motor Sports BTW in Pompano? What car were you interested in? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 601 Registered: 12-2001 |
Let's just review the stakes so far: I posted "my side" of the story, and if you go back and read the initial post, you will be hard-pressed to see pejoratives or whining. Indeed, at the outset, i was reluctant to identify the parties involved until i got feedback from the board. At Martin's suggestion, i emailed and faxed Royal Palm/Walter Giovannelli, and told him i made a post to this site describing the situation, had gotten a number of responses and invited him to weigh in, with "his side" of the story.We will see if he does so. I appreciate that the deal was complicated, and that a cash buyer without the complications, coming into the picture late in the game, would leave a dealer with an obvious choice. Royal Palm doesn't know me and had no reason to believe that i am an ardent consumer of ferraris. For that reason, i got Eddie K. involved since he has done business with these guys, broker to broker, for whatever that is worth. There is always another car. I said as much in my initial post. Did these turkeys owe Eddie a call? I think so, but that's why i deal with him: he's got high standards. As for getting pissed off, i wouldn't waste my time or energy. But, to the extent they lost goodwill on this transaction, and future business as a result, that's OK with me. PS Steve: I was told that the car was the owner's Ross or Russ _______to the extent that matters. | ||
| Daryl Adams (Daryl)
New member Username: Daryl Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2001 |
Hey guys, this kind of thread is, in my view, bad news. Stu Cordova and Steve Ahlgrim are spot on. The person who casually scans this type of thread is picking up seriously bad vibes about named individuals and companies. With a few ill-chosen or mis-directed words or comments we can do very real damage to people that no amount of rebuttal can fully repair. We're all big boys and we need to accept that "stuff" can happen in dealing with these cars. At the very least, we should be very guarded in venting our frustration on an open, world-wide forum. Just my feelings. | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 111 Registered: 10-2002 |
Stu There are ALWAYS two sides to a story. There are good dealers and bad dealers. Good customers and bad customers. I agree with Martin J. Don't clutter your head. Living well is the only revenge. Let Soo (sp?) was right: "If you go looking for revenge begin by digging two graves." | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2002 |
I find it valuable as well. I am talking to a long distance dealer currently and I sure wanted to know who it was to determine if I could trust the guy. I really don't care what reasons Royal Plam had. Your reputation in business in general is only as good as the last thing you do. I just like to know that who I am dealing with is making a fair profit and will keep their words. After having dealers lose the keys to my trade in, hold back my registration card, and on and on, I'd like as much info as possible. Just happens that I dealt with Royal Palm in a somewhat strange transaction and it turned out OK. I was not comfortable however. I think a search through the archives will clue you in to who the dealers are that go the extra miel and those that will toss you the bone. I had no clue that Michael Sheehan had lost a franchise such unethical reasons as sell cut Daytonas as legit ones. My guard would be up a notch higher if I ever dealth with him as a result. Minor disagreements between client and vendor occur constantly. The major ones are noteworthy. You are born with one name and one reputation in life. Once you let them go bad you cannot turn them around. Will | ||
| stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member Username: Balataboy Post Number: 285 Registered: 4-2001 |
Note; slight edit in my post occured after previous post. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
New member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2002 |
I disagree with you stu. This is exactly what these forums are for. The fact remains that irrespective of what motive the dealer had for his actions, Mr. Hart was entitled to (at the very least) a phone call informing him that there was another buyer in the picture who was a very strong candidate for the car. Mr. Hart should not go chasing the dealer for an explanation. He's wasted enough of his time. As a person who is currently in the market for a Ferrari, I find information like this very valuable. I've had my share of deposits which were not returned and poor treatment by dealers. Had I discovered this forum earlier I would have probably saved up quite a chunk of change from all the airfare and deposits I've lost. Keep in mind that as easily as Mr. Hart put up a post of his incovenience, he could put one up explaining the misunderstanding. These forums allow people with his best interest at heart to provide feedback in how to handle the situation the best they see it. | ||
| stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member Username: Balataboy Post Number: 284 Registered: 4-2001 |
This probably won't be a popular opinion, but here we go...I've been watching this thread with great interest and I'm a bit uncomfortable with what is going on here. I think to air complaints in a public forum like this, without first knowing all the details of the "other side's" story, is unfair. If, after knowing all the details, one discovers something wrong was done, with no intent to make it good, THEN, I feel, it would be a more appropriate time to attack. But beyond that, please allow me bring up a point, not in defense of the Royal Palm - as I have no idea who they are - but as a "counter-point" from a dealers perspective. I can't tell you how many times (just know that it's a lot - believe me) that I have had a customer come in on a car, take up hours of my time, negotiate a deal with me and agree to buy a car (in many cases signing a purchase order) - all contingient on either a PPI, financing, need to call broker to sell stock, mommies permission - whatever. I agree, because he/she seems very sincere about buying the car, I take a deposit, take the car off the market, tell all new perspective buyers the car is "not for sale at this time" and wait. Again, I can't tell you how many of these situations end up with the buyer calling the next day (or even days later) with some kind of a reason to not buy the car. Are they legitimate reasons? Doesn't matter. They either changed their mind, bought another car, didn't like a particular part of the deal - whatever. Again, it doesn't matter, because they have the right to change their mind. Am I upset when this happens? Hell yes! Do I have any recourse? Hell no! Can't do a thing - have to send back the deposit (because it's the right thing to do - moral and legal) and start over again. Are any of those potential other buyers on that car I blew off still around? Usually not! And the really frustrating times have been when the original buyer didn't even have the manners to call me and tell me they weren't buying the car. I had to call them (when they either didn't show up at a scheduled time or didn't call the next day as agreed) and I had to ask "what's going on", and they respond with "Oh, sorry, I forgot to call you, mommie said no" (or whatever - you get the idea). So, do I cry about it and publicly encourage others to join a compaign about what a**holes customers can be? No! You move on! It's part of business, life - whatever. Sincerely, W. Hart, I understand your frustration for what happened. But it's not the end of the world and it doesn't appear they did anything illegal. Were they jerks for what they did? Ya! But so are we as buyers some times. Come on guys - how many of us are willing to admit that we were perhaps less than morally perfect in the way that we dealt with a seller - dealer or private? So I guess my point is, let's not crucify them without knowing all the facts first and please, don't lump all dealers together as "bad guys" - because we're not. OK - just my point of view - from the "other side". | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
New member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2002 |
Are there any good dealers out there? Ferrarichat should pull together and open our own dealership.  | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1876 Registered: 9-2001 |
Steve makes some reasonable points which is why I think whart is going to ask the dealer to give his side of the story which is certainly fair | ||
| Steve Ahlgrim (Italycars)
New member Username: Italycars Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2002 |
Knowing all the characters, but not the details, I suspect Walter's car was either on consignment or brokered from another dealer. Good business is more than good PR. Put in another context, let's say you have your $150,000 Belchfire Deluxe on consignment with Walter. You find out he turned down a deal from a prospect standing in front of him with money in hand for a deal that involved a dealer a thousand miles away brokering a deal which involves a sight unseen trade and is dependant on both car passing a PPI. If the second deal falls through you could probably sue him negligence. I know Walter, he's a good guy. He wouldn't sell out Eddie without a damn good reason. This was a big complicated deal. Lots of things could blow up from either side. If you got cold feet and dropped out of the deal should he start an e-mail campaign against you? Heck, Walter may have just been protecting his relationship his 3/4 million dollar customer. | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2002 |
wmhart, There is no finer pirce of sheetmetal in modern era automobiledom than the rear deck of a 550b. You can only appreciate it in person though. will | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2002 |
Kessler was an authorized dealer, F of Manhattan until maybe 97-98. Then lost the franchise. An FNA friend mentioned that it was ethical wrongdoing and that he belonged right beside The Auto Toy Store physically and morally. Not sure what that meant except it wasn't good. My personal experience with no test drive until you sign the contract was enough to pretty much turn me off for the rest of my car-buying days. I had my title and checkbook in hand and was still treated like street dirt. Will | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 599 Registered: 12-2001 |
Agreed. It was Martin's suggestion. | ||
| Todd Chen (Tec)
Junior Member Username: Tec Post Number: 61 Registered: 2-2002 |
Whart, I think that is an excellent idea. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 598 Registered: 12-2001 |
I've attempted to email The Royal Palm to advise them of this thread and invite them to tell their "side" which i would love to hear. I'm not sure their email facility was working properly, so i'm going to fax them as well. In the meantime, i wanted to thank all of you for your input, your thoughts, and your time. This is such an amazing resource! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3281 Registered: 5-2001 |
Howie, WMontgomery had mentioned Steven Kessler in his post. He was not sure where they went. Well, they moved close to me I have no experience with them and have no judgement about them. Cars appear overpriced but so is Prestige and most of the others. | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Junior Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 226 Registered: 8-2002 |
Wasn't Royal Palm the dealership that had their cars towed recently. I thought there was another post about them. | ||
| Howie (Brokerofexotics)
Junior Member Username: Brokerofexotics Post Number: 214 Registered: 11-2001 |
Martin, I understand your words about Prestige Imports, but Kessler seems ok. I have spoken to and visited his showroom on several occassions. What have you heard, neighbor? | ||
| Howie (Brokerofexotics)
Junior Member Username: Brokerofexotics Post Number: 213 Registered: 11-2001 |
above | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3274 Registered: 5-2001 |
BTW if you have a car close by that you need a visual on, let me know I go out and check it out for you. No charge. Done that for some other F-Chatters before. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3273 Registered: 5-2001 |
WHart, as a dealer here in FL where most of the scum resides (BTW Steven Kessler is just a few blocks from my office, right next to Prestige Imports, go figure) I can not understand why a dealer in this closed community would even make such a dumb move. I give you a perfect example.- Byron, who started the "my new 348" thread. I have had a verbal agreement with him and he wanted the next day to have the car PPIed. I agreed. Somebody else came and offered more money for the car. Did I sell for more? NO, because my name is more important than a few bucks in my pocket today. If you deal in this product you have to believe that there should be some kind of business ethics. I would disclose the dealer (I assume he is close by, since Tim was supposed to make the PPI), send them a e-mail that this is being discussed here and they can register and give their side of the story or just let it be. I remember 1 1/2 years ago: Frank's horror story. Got results when F-Chat started to go up in arms and we were what 400 back then. | ||
| Robert (Rjklein4470)
Junior Member Username: Rjklein4470 Post Number: 199 Registered: 3-2002 |
Is that not why Mr. Sheehan got his Ferrari dealership yanked for taking Daytona coupes and converting them into spyders and selling them for market value as spyders? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 597 Registered: 12-2001 |
I saw pictures of one 550 Maranello that had been cut and had a conventional, manual softtop.Our friend Mr. Sheehan probably knows where it is now. | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2002 |
The way 575's are (NOT) selling, they might consider something in the way of a normally priced spider if the platform is to be viable for a few more years. Will | ||
| Al Flynn (Alf)
New member Username: Alf Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2001 |
wm hart, I'm just your "average" person. I'm not a sports star, celebrity, or power broker. I've been on FerrariChat to learn about Ferraris. I felt compeled to respond to this post because Algar Ferrari has been "bashed" pretty hard a few times. I was surprised with the comments others on this chat had made about the people at Algar. In the 4 years I have been dealing with Algar I have never seem a customer treated badly. I too dealt with Frank before he moved on. I used to go into the dealership 2 or 3 times a week. I'm sure I was a real pest. This went on for 9 months before I even put a deposit on a car. I was never quite sure I wanted a Ferrari. I can't tell you how many test drives I took before I put my deposit down. Frank, Francis, Rick, and Bob were always gracious. I trust everyone of them with my car dealings. When Francis gave his "word" he meant it. Algar's is "golden" to me. I'm rambling so I'll stop. As an aside, I'm just a regular customer at Algars. I don't get any special preffered treatment. I get into the same line everyone else does. I waited 18 months for my 360. Okay, I'm done and I'll crawl back into my hole. Thanks for listening. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 568 Registered: 3-2002 |
totally understand your frustration with the top. i have seen a number of hard tops in the last 6 mths, along w/ the rube goldberg soft top that comes with it, and they are all ugly and impractical. which is why i was so interested in whether there were any scaglietti type cut versions, or whether ferrari was ever going to offer a true 550/575 cabrio. don't think they did that w/ the 550 since they didn't want to take away from the 575.....but maybe they will offer this option towards the end of the 575 run....we can only hope (and make sure we have the money to buy it....) | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 595 Registered: 12-2001 |
Big problem with the top, leaving aesthetic judgements aside, is that its like the old MB hardtops for the SL; you can't put it in the trunk when you don't want to wear it, so you are either driving it as a hardtop, or putting the top somewhere other than on the car to enjoy the open roadster. Unlike the old MB thing, though, there is no manual rag top to quickly lift into place if the weather turns inclement. | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2002 |
At $15,000 it's a real bargin.... | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sinfully ugly from those that have seen it in person. I have not. | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Junior Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 221 Registered: 4-2002 |
I saw an add in Froza that Shelton in Florida has a hard top for the 550b | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2002 |
A 550b sold at "full dealer asking price - not FNA" around NYC for 319 three weeks ago. The buyer brought it back the next weekend having gotten caught in a rainstorm and unable to get the "roof" up. Wife hated the noise it made. The dealer bought it back for 280 one week later and has it listed at 310 with no takers as of yet. Number 48, black/black/tubi. Will | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 567 Registered: 3-2002 |
this has been pretty well hashed and i don't have any different advice to give except that you will get over it; but....can't help saying this is similar to an incident that i wrote about here, back in june, where the dealer in rome had sold the car (456gt) the day before we agreed i would be arriving with the check ! he never called me, and could barely apologize when i was standing in front of him w/ my check in hand ! i had bought my other ferrari from this guy, and he and i had numerous conversations about inspections, maintenance to be done before pick-up of the 456, new tires etc etc none of that held any water with this guy when somebody else came in and paid $2k more than what we had agreed. at that time, many of you told me that was just the nature of the beast, and apparently it is. from now on i will place the small deposit and be sure to have something to drive away in on delivery day. i am also not crying too much for dealers stuck with high priced inventory in a falling market.... | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 463 Registered: 11-2001 |
As a consumer, I would NOT ever put a $500 deposit down on a car just to lose it if I change my mind later. | ||
| Jeff Swearingen (Gazill)
New member Username: Gazill Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2002 |
If your broker had made a deposit, the dealer showed poor business sense and a lack of ethics. I'd be surprised if the dealer did not ask for a deposit to hold the car in your name so you could inspect it. I'm a licensed dealer and buy & sell cars as a hobby / part-time job. I ALWAYS ask for a small deposit (usually $500) to hold a car, even for a day. I explain very clearly that this is refundable if the car fails inspection in any way but that it's non-refundable if they change their mind. The deposit also guarantees that I will not sell the car to anyone else, even if I get a call with a full-price offer. I'm just speculating here, but perhaps your broker was negotiating the price of the car by pretending that you were actually looking at a couple of other options. This is a common way of hacking a few thousand bucks off of the asking price by making the dealer feel like he has to compete for your business. At the same time, I'm surprised that the dealer did not call your broker to say that another party was interested. Of course, this is also commonly a lie to put pressure on the buyer. It's funny to watch the process of buying / selling a car. Typically, it's built on deception and posturing. Just my $0.02. -Jeff | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 546 Registered: 2-2002 |
FWIW, I watched Barchetta #343 go through the RM Auction here in Detroit last weekend. The high bid was $310k against a reserve of $360k, so it did not sell. I spoke to the owner whose comments were similar to WHart's. He said, "It's a great car if you live in Arizona." The lack of a functioning top makes it a difficult choice for someone who likes to use their cars. He's considering getting back into another 550. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 593 Registered: 12-2001 |
Actually, Alf, had it been Algar (see my preceding post, which must have crossed yours in the "mail") i would probably have the right to be incensed, since i do regard the expenditure of considerable monies at a dealer to entitle me to something,even if it is a little as a phone call, to say," hey, i've got another customer here, are you taking the car or not." As to whether getting the barchetta makes me beholden, possibly....But i tried to continue to do business with Algar and couldn't make the right deals at the time. So, just like anybody else, i can take my business elsewhere. As to whether i have bitched about Algar in the past, since you appear to be a student of the past post, take a look. I think you will see that i stood up for them..... Perhaps my initial post, when i talked about my past purchases, led you to believe i was complaining about Algar. I certainly did not suggest that, but i can see where you went astray.However, i would have been much more explicit about my having had a past relationship with the particular dealer, had Algar been the culprit. BTW, who are you? | ||
| Al Flynn (Alf)
New member Username: Alf Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2001 |
Well, I owe Mr. Hart an apology for assuming he was speaking about Algar. I was posting the same time you were --- Murphy's Law Not a good way to start as a new member on FerrarChat | ||
| Al Flynn (Alf)
New member Username: Alf Post Number: 2 Registered: 4-2001 |
Although WM Hart did not identify the dealer(yet),I will guess it is Algar Ferrari. I am making this guess from information Mr. Hart made in earlier posts. I find it very ironic that Mr. Hart would purchase 6 cars and spend 3/4 million dollars at a dealership that he now calls "Piggish" all because ONE deal went sour. There must have been SIX good deals or Mr. Hart would not have spent his money there. Mr. Hart also got a 550 Barch from this dealer. I bet Mr. Hart was not complaining about the dealer then. I do not know Mr. Hart. Reading his previous posts he appears to be a reasonable person. We don't have Algar's side of the story. But I do know Algar Ferrari. As a customer, I have been doing business with them for about 4 years. I know Bob Segal, the owner, and Rick and Francis the sales people. I have always been treated with respect every time I went into the dealership. I am not taking sides in this issue. It would be nice to have the full story from both parties. I just know my experience with Algar Ferrari has always been positive. just my 2cents | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 592 Registered: 12-2001 |
Thanks for the reality check, everybody. As i said, i'm not really looking for legal advice regarding a binding contract, or for an explanation of the dealer's motives, which are obvious. Frankly, i think this will ultimately hurt the dealer in his relations with my friend, the broker, who has in the past, supplied cars to this dealer based only on a verbal commitment; i don't know if my friend will continue to do so with this bunch in the future, but that's his choice. OK, lemme clarify a couple of things in the course of naming names. First, it is not Algar, from whom i purchased the last 6 ferraris, including the barchetta. Despite Bruce's comments about Ric D. there, i dealt almost entirely with Frank Donatoni, who was the sales manager, and worked there since 1972, or thereabouts. Frank is a wonderful man, honest, and was always concerned about making sure the cars were right. For example, the Boxer (which came from Eddie Karem) did not go out the door to me (i did the transaction thru Algar) until Frank was sure his "mother could drive the car without a problem." And indeed, the boxer was totally trouble-free, even though it was a garage queen, largely because Frank made sure the shop did everything to assure the car was fettled. Unfortunately, Frank left and while i have had issues with Bob, the owner, they are more the result of his "marching to a different drummer" than any overt attempt to •••• me. I have never dissed them, and won't, even though i haven't continued to do business with them.(And, despite some disputes others had with Mark, the service manager, i found him and Tony, the chief wrench there, to be good guys, responsive, etc.). OK, now for the details on the present tranaction that went astray. The dealer is Royal Palm, and the schmoe here is a guy named Walter Giovannelli. I put my friend Eddie into the deal at the outset, once i contacted the dealer and made sure the car i was interested in was still available, cause the dealer knew Eddie, had bought cars from him, and, as i said, i trust Eddie implicitly. (He has, as some of you know, a knack for finding really nice older cars, not the cheapest, but well worth the money:two of my cars came from him, a boxer, as mentioned above, and a 328). So Eddie put the deal together with Walter, and apparently Walter was cool with sending the car to Tim Stanford for the PPI and awaiting Eddie's arrival in Florida within the next week, to visually inspect the car. Since these guys are all known in the industry, and have to work with each other, i figure there must be a working understanding of good faith among them, or else, after burning somebody once, they would know they're not credible next time (and it is a small world here, as you know, among the brokers and dealers, and the cars themselves). So, anyway, sounds like Walter took another deal without even the courtesy of saying anything to anybody, and there it is. Sure, its quite possible that Walter knew the car would not stand up to scrutiny,but he should have then said that to Eddie, so nobodies' time would be wasted. Whatever. Anyway, yeah, the barchetta is for sale. The market on it has dropped significantly, and while i love the car, the lack of a roof makes it tough for me to hop in and drive across country or wherever, on a whim, as i am apt to do. I figure that if i keep putting miles on it, it will not hold value, so i'd like to get rid of it now, and get something i can drive without having to reach so deeply into my pocket when i get rid of it (which i tend to do anyway; remember, i'm more of a "serial" collector). | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2002 |
I ONCE went to Steven Kessler when they were in Manhattan. I was ready to trade a 95 993 on a used 348 spider that was on the floor. We had talked money and had agreed on the money delta. However, I was not permitted to drive the car until I signed a contract to buy it and wrote a substantial deposit check. Store policy. No, I didn't buy it. He is no longer on 32nd or 34th Street but is still in business elsewhere presumably with that same store policy. At least I presume it enough such that I would never waste a phone call on him. I'm sure he doesn't miss my business. Will | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2002 |
Not an FNA dealer. One of your classic broker types. Could be they did not want to tie up so much cash in the 550b, had a buyer for the 550b fall through or had a no-trade scenario in the palm of their hand. Whatever the reason the event sucks. On second and third thought I am thinking along the lines of others here in that the letter writing campaign from a bunch of basically anonymous nobodies will mean nothing to the scumbag dealer. So we all threaten not to buy from him - there is always someone standing behind you waiting to buy. Will | ||
| Ken Thomas (Future328driver)
Junior Member Username: Future328driver Post Number: 237 Registered: 12-2001 |
William, I wonder if a letter writting campaign would do any good. My experience with 2 different Ferrari dealers is that they seem to care very little about cusotmer service. At both locations, I was never approached by anyone even when the place was empty of any other customers. A salesman at one place would not even chat with me unless I was planning to buy a car that day. When he found out that I was interested in a 328 or 348 rather than a new 360, he basically treated me as if I should not even be allowed near the showroom cars. So, based on my experience, I really begin to wonder how much some of these dealers seem to care about treating customers and potential customers. If they don't care, writting letters to them wont make any difference, especially if they come from people who are not likely to buy a car from them anyway. Maybe a better tactic is to write a letter to Ferrari HQ (do they have a PR group) expresing your frustration. That might get back to the dealer with more power than a complaint directly to him. I have a lawyer friend here in Dallas who signed a deal on a Porsche, and got a call a few days later from the salesman cancelling the deal. Apparently, the dealer got some moron to pay more for the same car than my friend and they preferred the extra few grand to maintaing a good reputation with my friend. | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 969 Registered: 7-2001 |
Stu, I disagree that my attitude is 'approaching bigotry' and it serves me well. I go into any car deal with this attitude, and there is an opportunity for any dealer to surprise me. My expectations are low. I expect to get the run around, to be walked from desk to desk, etc. When that DOESN'T happen, I'm pleased and will likely purchase from them again. When I bought my daily driver the experience was so good, I've sent 3 other people to buy there. I'll probably buy my next car there as well. My point is not to let your guard down just because it's a high end dealership. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Junior Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 248 Registered: 3-2001 |
Edward and Doody...I have had a very similar experience as wm hart. With this experience behind me, I do have to say that I really agree with your opinions. It is frustrating to have a car 'taken away' from you, but your approachs to the situation are spot on. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 565 Registered: 10-2001 |
It seems the dealer got a stupid high firm offer and the difference in money was more than his good will towards you was worth. Now you know what your cash value is. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2283 Registered: 2-2001 |
If you had put a deposit down on the car I could see a legal gripe but if you look at this from the Dealers prospective, you are looking at a possible deal versus a done deal. What if for some reason the car failed the inspection and the deal fell through from your end and the Dealer had let a customer with a fist full of money walk out the door. He would have lost all the way around. Times being what they are, I am sure they do not sell a Ferrari a day so a customer carrying cash and wanting to drive off carries some clout. Morally the Dealer should have called you and told you the situation and given you the opportunity to purchase on the spot as the other customer was willing to do. Such is the arrogance of a lot of the Ferrari vendors I have delt with and another reason I am driving a Chevy now. They wanted my business and treated me properly. | ||
| Todd Gieger (Todd328gts)
Junior Member Username: Todd328gts Post Number: 249 Registered: 6-2002 |
Given your history with the dealer, their allegiance unquestionably should have been with you...This didn't happen to me yet I am getting all worked up as well...Now it's your turn to throw them under the bus...what's the name? | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Junior Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 219 Registered: 4-2002 |
WM I think you should reveal the whole story along with the name of the dealer involved so that everyone stays away from him. If i had purchased all those ferraris from them in the past i would want them to show me some respect | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1848 Registered: 9-2001 |
sorry for being dumb but it is early in the morning - let me get this straight - this is a dealer you have purchased through many times before? If so you should have been given the courtesey of him holding the car for you and you should post the offending party. If you don't mind me asking - you were going to trade in the 550 Barca? | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 492 Registered: 1-2001 |
I own my own business an realize that everyone makes mistakes and has misunderstandings at times. People that work for me don't always make the best decisions just as I slip up once and a while too. The only difficulty I have is if the person keeps making the same error over and over. The key issue is "How will you correct the situation to make the customer happy again"? This is where the exceptional customer service companies shine. But....Sometimes this can't be done for whatever reason. my two cents... | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 321 Registered: 9-2001 |
The FoS comment was not off the cuff, it was painfully one-sided. When FoS presented their side, you had the opportunity to make judgement. I believe that they were not as guilty as the originator of that thread would have indicated. - JMG | ||
| stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member Username: Balataboy Post Number: 283 Registered: 4-2001 |
Please be careful Jim, generalities like that are risky and often unfair. It's a small step away from bigotry. As the owner of a dealership, I am watching this thread with great interest. I am very much concerned and angered when a dealer acts in an unethical manner, but I am also aware that making judgments, based on stereotypes, is very dangerous. I'm curious to see how this plays out. Wm Hart, let me know if there is anything I can do for you that might be helpful. -Stu | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 967 Registered: 7-2001 |
I think the lesson to learn is all car dealers are car dealers. The stereotypes exist for a reason. Just because it's a Ferrari dealership makes no difference. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 526 Registered: 4-2002 |
Algar - heard nothing but TOTAL horror stories, EXCEPT, oddly enough, their parts department. Seems to be tops on most peoples' list. On FerrariList, an off-the-cuff comment was made about FofSeattle. They got VERY upset. To avoid misunderstanding here, it was a non-issue, and so don't avoid FofSeattle based on this. However, the important thing is that at least some dealers DO care what is being spread about them on internet. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1141 Registered: 4-2002 |
jeff heres one for you algar ferrari- philly -sales dept rick disimone(sp),,bs artist, horemaster, jerk off, will screw you and take the highest bidder on a car...i have heard plenty of horror stories about him and the new owner bob segal..stay away.. but parts dept is the cheapest in the usa..go figure.... bruce | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
New member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2002 |
How come everyone that has a bad experience decides to leave the dealer un named? What is the point of sharing the experience and then protecting the shady dealer? They are big boys, if they did something wrong name names and maybe the next guy will be a little more careful. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2817 Registered: 12-2000 |
I think a little FerrariChat.com union could become a positive force in the Ferrari world. If FerrariChat.com gets targeted with legal action though, I would expect a little help from all you lawyers out there. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
New member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2002 |
Keep in mind that a lot of times dealers are misrepresented by the occasional dunce salesperson. You might want to climb up the food chain in the establishment and make your concerns known. Then see how it goes from there. If every dissatisfied customer did this with dealers the industry in general might be a lot better. I totally sympathize though. I have been in a hunt for a long time and have had really bad experiences myself. Everything from dealers accusing me of joyriding and dealers who won't return deposits. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 665 Registered: 5-2001 |
William, If a slime ball dealer makes a deal by handshake then sells to a higher bidder(sounds like that happened here) all the letters in the world are not going to change his disgusting behavior. Hopefully if he does this often enough he will self destuct on the basis of his behavior which is antithetical to good business practice. F-Him and let it go-don't give the bastard rent free space in your head.End of pontification. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 589 Registered: 12-2001 |
Thanks for the thoughtful response and kind words, doody. btw, i tried to send you an email at the account shown in your profile and it bounced. is it me or what. Wm- trust you did get my email-thanks for your response. | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 106 Registered: 10-2002 |
WM I agree with Doody but should you post specifics I'd think that would give most of pause before dealing with that dealer... | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 620 Registered: 11-2001 |
i'd also add that a deal's not done until a deal's done. to some guys, a handshake is just a way to spread germs. my opinion or my ethics or your opinion or your ethics are just that - mine or yours. not per se theirs. it sounds like this dealer was wiggly, probably slimy (your word piggy makes sense!), and definitely lead you guys on. not a smart way to treat intelligent, connected, qualified buyers. doody. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 618 Registered: 11-2001 |
wm - i'm not so sure a letter writing campaign will make any real difference for two reasons: (A) many of us have had bad experiences buying ferraris for a wide variety of reasons. nobody ever really knows the wherefors and whynots of messy deals except the individual involved and the party they're dealing with. a letter writing campaign to your state senator to protest some legislation is one thing, but to protest a deal-gone-bad which we only have one side of the story on is awkward. (B) i think it's enough to inform the offending parties that there are public forums where their trnasgressions will be discussed. if they don't have a problem with that, that's their choice. if they have in fact more than one brain cell perhasp they'll behave responsibly. while ferrarichat.com (et. al.) can and does have value as a public stockade (of sorts), the power here rests in our ability to document repuation and behavior among extremely informed buyers. the fact that there are nearly 2,000 of them should in fact make dealers pay serious attention and be reasonably concerned about behaving above-board and professionally (unfortunately some of them apparently need a kick in the pants to get there). getting 1,000 of us to write a letter to a specific dealer isn't likley (IMO) to change their behavior: they know we don't have their side of the story. furthermore there was a third party involved as well, and we don't have their side of the story. you're a respected, sage member of this community, and i'd stick pins in my cheeks before i'd suggest to someone you were talking out of school, but that doesn't mean i'd commit to writing that you were wronged. and i don't expect you to detail the issues to the Nth degree here. we just don't have all the data, and the party in question knows that, and they couldn't take it that seriously. in fact, they might argue it was some sort of harrassment. if you feel you've been unfairly treated, IMO you should work hard to come to resolution with the party, and if they refuse, you should spill the beans, name the perpetrator, and let them lie in the bed they made. the one thing i'd urge is to give them a chance to make good. when i had problems with my purchase, i spent numerous months trying to rectify it before i went public. these forums are public and archived so they should be used extremely judiciously for this purpose (a purpose they should serve). this happened only hours ago - give it some time to clear - maybe the air will come out clean. since you asked, those are my two pennies. good luck. doody. | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 22 Registered: 11-2002 |
It could be someone tha any one of us could be dealing with now. Will you share please? | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yep. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 587 Registered: 12-2001 |
I am far from a political "activist," but a recent experience with a dealer who will, for the time being remain unnamed,leads me to ask whether the members of this board would be willing to engage in a letter/email campaign to let the particular dealer know that his conduct is unacceptable to members of this community(obviously, with the implicit "threat" to boycott that dealer, or at a minimum, let others know of his ethics before they deal with him). The story itself is fairly simple. I found an older ferrari at a dealer and expressed my interest. Didn't hondle on the price. Got my chum, the broker, to handle the deal, and since he has sold this dealer cars more than once on a handshake, thought we had a done deal, subject only to the car checking out. Dealer was willing to take my ferrari in trade. Instead of getting the car to our chosen local mechanic for the PPI, as a precis to closing as promised, the dealer informs us today that he has instead taken a deposit from somebody else for this car. Hey, i can find another car. Nor am i looking for legal advice, since i am a lawyer, and utterly trust the broker, whom i know several of you have dealt with (and would vouch for his honesty; he's also a friend, so that's not the issue). Question is simple: based on the facts as i have outlined them here, and should i decide to reveal the identity of these shmoes, would any or all of you being willing to write a brief note to the dealer saying in effect, heard about your behaviour, and want to add my voice to let you know that this is not how you should be handling business with us customers. (Yeah, so i've bought 6 ferraris in the past four years, big deal... but, almost 3/4 million dollars worth of business from one customer does add up).There are, 1800 of us... Whaddya think? |