| Author | Message | ||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hello Hubert, The compromise is in the fact that these discs are made up of several materials, and are therefore composite discs. F1 and sports car carbon discs are all carbon, carbon reinforcing fillament in a carbon matrix. The road car discs are composites of ceramic material, a metallic compound, in a carbon matrix. The purpose of the ceramic and metallic components of these discs is to allow for proper friction coeficient development at low to moderate temperature. The disc is then compromised for ultimate temperature and weight savings compared to a pure race disc. the process to produce these discs involves several steps. If you give me an email, I can send a powerpoint presentation documenting the Enzo disc manufacturing process. As for the ATS units, I am aware that they are beginning to promote this, however I am not familiar with anyone using them in racing or on a roadcar. So I will reserve judgement for now. The key to Brembo selling the discs for upgrades and such is all price related. The business units are no doubt considering the possibilities. That said, it is pretty difficult to sell brake discs for several thousand dollars a piece, for a couple pound weight savings. The costs involved with developing aftermarket fittiments probably will not be justified by the sales. However, technology always moves forward. We will just have to see. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 340 Registered: 1-2002 |
Eric, Thank you for you're reply. I do still have a lingering question, if you don't mind: How do manufactures compromise the material to allow enough heat buildup to make the brakes work when cold? On GP cars, there are NO brakes until the system is hot, where is the compromise? Also, you may be intersted in knowing that, a japanese company by the name of ATS makes aftermarket carbon pads and discs(track use only)and the discs and pads are reccomended only for short track/auto-x use, with a full road race version in the wings for '03, any comments, possible plans for Brembo to release a similar retrofit? Reference: http://www.a-t-s-usa.com/ats-products/ats-products-carbon-brakes.shtml The cost of the dics (pair) and pads (set) is ~$4000. Thank you again for you're input, it's greatly appreciated. Regards, Hubert | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 551 Registered: 2-2002 |
The 7 Liter engine in the Saleen is not the same 7 Liter that was used at Le Mans. It is a bored out small block. | ||
| Roel de Fouw (Spawnz)
Junior Member Username: Spawnz Post Number: 87 Registered: 6-2002 |
Eric, I find your information about differences in such brakes very interesting. Thanks for your input. Keep it up. | ||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 39 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hello Hubert, I believe Porsche has worked out the issues with the PCCB system, The PCCB was never recalled, only delayed in it's introduction. Which means that the Enzo is the first to come equipped from the manufacturer's initial release with the carbon-ceramic disc material. Trivial matters at best. Both the PCCB and Enzo CCM systems feel fantastic, but generate some squeal and low speed vibration. I know there is a wait for the Porsche discs currently. God forbid anybody should have to replace the Enzo discs, they are having trouble making them to meet the initial production as it is. Right now the cost of manufacturing these discs is astronomical. The Ferrari version is more exotic, and is more difficult to manufacture. The expectation is that the discs will be lifetime of vehicle units. Until the technology becomes less specialized and production demand goes up, these discs will not be applicable to everyday cars. The cost of the discs for a couple pound weight savings and a couple disc changes is questionable at best. I believe you would have to change discs every weekend for many years before you could match the buy in cost. That said, these discs have only a small amount of friction advantage, but a huge gain in heat absorbtion ability. The discs can take more heat than the pads can generate. The pads are the true comprimise for the street cars, as they have to be comfortable for daily use (noise, vibration) and yet maintain a borderline race friction characteristic. A tall order. I think that advances in friction material of the pads is going to really make these systems shine in the next 10 years. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1593 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Saleen was running in the American LeMans series. i'm sure they had problems with parts availibility as it is a very limited production car 7 just came out about 1 year ago. It uses a 7 liter Ford, just like the GT40 Mk II that won LeMans | ||
| Andrew (Mrrou)
Member Username: Mrrou Post Number: 389 Registered: 3-2002 |
Eric I don't mean to hijack the thread but what are yearly maintence costs on a C5? How about costs for routine services? Thanks Andrew | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 339 Registered: 1-2002 |
Eric, Interesting comments on the GT2, however, the porscheusa sites still advertises the use of pccb brakes on the GT2 (standard equipment) and a ~ 10K option on the 911TT. Reference: http://www3.us.porsche.com/english/usa/911/gt2/safety/pccb.htm When did they announce or recall the use of pccb brakes in the US? I'm not in the industry, so I can only go by what I'm given. | ||
| Eric Dahl (Brembo)
New member Username: Brembo Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gentlemen, what you are looking at is a development mule for the Porsche carrera GT, due out next year. As a test mule it is bound to be covered with tape, antennas, transmitters, tape and other such items used in testing. It is currently running with a v10 (mid mount), yes the wing height is speed sensitive, and yes it is fast. Is it faster than an Enzo? Who cares, in that realm of speed, what does a tenth mean here or there. Any car is only as fast as its driver anyway. Being a Porsche, it will run all day at whatever speed you want. It will likely be the second production car to use carbon ceramic brakes in the USA, the first was the Enzo. (The GT2 used a Porsche developed disc which failed at high speed and was not released for use in USA, so cast iron was substituted.) Being a road test engineer with Brembo, I have dealt with all the current and most past supercars, including the new Saleen S7, the Mosler MT900 (Corvette) and so on. Ask me if you have a question about one, I may know the answer. | ||
| Andrew (Mrrou)
Member Username: Mrrou Post Number: 386 Registered: 3-2002 |
Great car but I'm also wondering what the antenna does..It might be for the carphone? It would be nice seeing this in yellow..it seems an appropiate color for it. Andrew | ||
| Kevin Marcus (Rumordude)
Junior Member Username: Rumordude Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2001 |
saleen did run in gts for at least 2001. then they started getting into some trouble because it supposedly wasnt a production car. i think they sort of also cheated by "winning" their first race because they were the only car in their class! they also had some issues with spare part availability. http://www.parkplaceltd.com/webinventory/details.asp?id=1175 http://www.parkplaceltd.com/Makes/SaleenS7.asp http://www.parkplaceracing.com/ these guys are just down the road from me. actually, i have bought a couple cars through them, but never one of these. | ||
| oicyu812 (Oicyu812)
New member Username: Oicyu812 Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2002 |
William can you provide a link to a good racing website? I looked at gtracing.net and it was for World GT and I did not see the Saleen in it. I'm looking in the wrong place and don't know where to look. Thanks for the help. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1592 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Mosler & the Saleen dont run together, Mosler is in GT2. Saleen runs against vettes, vipers, maranellos etc. I think Saleen has this championship locked up | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 359 Registered: 3-2002 |
I think it's a nice car. There is something about a German supercar not named '911' that really interests me. I don't think I'll take it over an Enzo, but maybe over a new V10 Lambo... | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 298 Registered: 4-2002 |
Mosler Finished Second In the Bathurst 24 Hour Classic. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 911 Registered: 2-2001 |
what does it run against in gt1? Ernesto | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1591 Registered: 2-2001 |
Saleen runs in GT1, it does All the spanking Baby!!!!!!  | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 373 Registered: 4-2002 |
The antenna is prob to relay data back to fixed location (factory telemetry?) like we do with development aircraft. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 909 Registered: 2-2001 |
I would take any car in William's list over the Saleen. Ernesto | ||
| Kevin Horner (Boz)
New member Username: Boz Post Number: 42 Registered: 8-2002 |
I saw the concept at the NAIAS in Detroit a couple years ago. One of the only Porsches I've stopped to gaze at. Recently, my sister-in-law has helped install the lighting in the Porsche display at the show. She got to climb through a GT2 last year. If this comes back, she may get the chance again. As it stands, I believe this is her ultimate car of choice. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 412 Registered: 4-2002 |
Doesn't the Saleen run in GTS class and is spanked by the Corvettes and the 550 who are both in the same class? Or am I thinking of a different series? | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1590 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Vector was admitedly a huge POS The Saleen is Very different. The Saleen company is far different from Vector which was always a shoe string operation, I met Jerry Weigert several times. Saleen is a lot more like Carrol Shelby than Weigert. & Saleen has full backing of FoMoCo along with engineers & computers loaned by Ford, so its a serious operation and we all know what happened last time Ford & Ferrari locked horns. Finally the Saleen is a Serious race car totally unlike the Vector. The Saleen completely dominates its class in IMSA these days. I bet Ferrari wont dare race the Enzo for fear of getting spanked in public by the Saleen, just like the kept the F50 away from GT1 competition | ||
| oicyu812 (Oicyu812)
New member Username: Oicyu812 Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2002 |
This is a very nice car. I could see buying it over an Enzo but I can't see buying a Saleen S7 over a Enzo. The car is another atempt by an American to make an independent exotic that is going to fail. When I see the Saleen I think Vector and remember that car as a distant memory | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1588 Registered: 2-2001 |
Of the new supercars I would choose in order: Porsche Saleen Ferrari Pagani Mosler | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 411 Registered: 4-2002 |
Sounds like there is a little apprehension in the Ferrari camp. Reminds me of Mercedes Club chat when Lexus and Infiniti were introduced. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 297 Registered: 4-2002 |
Exactly, I would much rather have the faster Mosler for 215 (photon) than the Porsche for $350k. On the other hand, I would rather have the Enzo even at $650k+ | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1585 Registered: 2-2001 |
Actually the Mosler is about $150k for the road car, $200k for race. I'm sure the porsche has FAR better build quality | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 296 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'll take a mossler for that price point. | ||
| Reiner Kaiser (Reinerkaiser)
New member Username: Reinerkaiser Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2001 |
I saw this car at the LA Auto Show last year, and thought it was awesome looking. I think it's more than 350k; anyways, finally a Porsche we Germans can be proud of again!!! Never cared much for the 911xxx and drove a 928 before. The engine was awesome, but the looks...? | ||
| Becker Cu�llar (Becker)
Junior Member Username: Becker Post Number: 57 Registered: 2-2001 |
I think at some point there was doubt for a production run of the model unless they had some number of firm orders or something like that. This is a write-up when it was first unveiled http://www3.us.porsche.com/english/usa/news/christophorus/0012/bilder/page_10_15.PDF | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1582 Registered: 2-2001 |
Nice. I think its a lot better looking than the Enzo & I heard it will sell around $350 k. Its better looking than the Saleen & Pagani also. Looks like Porsche is bringing back the Cheese grater look | ||
| Roel de Fouw (Spawnz)
Junior Member Username: Spawnz Post Number: 85 Registered: 6-2002 |
Thanks for the soundclip DB, sounds very good idd. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 131 Registered: 9-2002 |
WOW I just listen to the sound clip, WOW I need a high RPM 8, 10, or 12cyl. WOW | ||
| Ron R (Ronr)
New member Username: Ronr Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2002 |
"That thingie on the rear ain't a wing. No sirree! It's to hold yer deer 'n' elk durin' huntin' season." That's pretty funny. I actually had to do that many years ago. I didn't have a truck yet, was all alone out at the deer lease, and all I had was my Corvette. Dragged the nice Bambi all the way to the dirt road, walked back to camp to get the car, and tossed it on the rear deck (no antlers on that one). Wish I'd had a camera! Maybe I should've kept that story to myself.... | ||
| luciano favero (Ontogenetic1007)
New member Username: Ontogenetic1007 Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2002 |
http://www.exiges.com/ubb/NonCGI/Forum8/HTML/000008.html | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 573 Registered: 1-2002 |
I'm sure the antenna is for the CB radio. That thingie on the rear ain't a wing. No sirree! It's to hold yer deer 'n' elk durin' huntin' season.  | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2833 Registered: 12-2000 |
Yes Jack, it looks like a MR2 and an Audi tt did the deed.  | ||
| Ron R (Ronr)
New member Username: Ronr Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm sure it's a gun rack. You lay your soft case on top and strap it on securely with a couple of bungees. | ||
| D B (Threesixty)
Junior Member Username: Threesixty Post Number: 96 Registered: 8-2002 |
The wing goes up and down according to speed...thank god! Check out the sound of this beast though...WOW! http://www2.us.porsche.com/english/usa/entertainment/sounds/models/carreragt/default.htm | ||
| Roel de Fouw (Spawnz)
Junior Member Username: Spawnz Post Number: 83 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hehe, I noticed the huge antenna too, maybe it's remote controlled ;) | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 625 Registered: 3-2002 |
Interesting. From the side, the front looks like an MR2, the doors are Viper-ish, and the rear resembles a Ruf Boxster. What do you suppose that enormous antenna does? | ||
| Roel de Fouw (Spawnz)
Junior Member Username: Spawnz Post Number: 82 Registered: 6-2002 |
Also, check out this little spy video on the car. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/video_gallery/video.php?id=30875 Nothing too exciting, but it has some nice drive by shots of a black version, which looks pretty good while moving. Not a fan of the silver one with the golden wheels though. | ||
| Roel de Fouw (Spawnz)
Junior Member Username: Spawnz Post Number: 81 Registered: 6-2002 |
(I;m surprised this hasn't been discussed here yet, but if it has. i'm sorry and please ignore this post.) I'm talking about the Porsche Carrera GT, due for 2003. This Pcar is carrying a 5,5 litre v10, pushing out anything around 560hp. This is supposedly porsche's answer to the Enzo. I believe it weighs quite a bit less then the Ferrari does. I recon this car is using a midengine setup, which would improve handling over the rear-engined porsches. Let's speculate, I'd love to hear some opinions on this one. I'll add some pics below (sorry if they're a bit on the large side)     Enjoy. -Roel |