| Author | Message | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 142 Registered: 10-2002 |
There were 4 Donohue T70ies. Mine was the second. It won the Kent WA CanAm was tested by Jim Hall,he added spoilers for Pensky, and crashed during tire testing for Firestone. It was rebuilt, won several more races including Nassau where it soundly beat the Ferraris. It was sold to John Meyer who raced it in the SCAA winning the A Sports Championship in 67,68,and 69. Meyer also set the all time record at Mt.Equinox in this car. I bought it in the early 70ies. Donohue won the championship in his third Lola. His book "Unfair Advantage" is a great read and also goes into his drive at LeMans in my MK-IV. His son David who is also a racer recently republished the book. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Junior Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2002 |
Wow! You have the Donohue 1967 T70? Wasn't that the car that won 6 out of 7 races to become USRRC Champion? The Sunoco livery or was that 1966? Too many cars not enough brain to remember. | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 141 Registered: 10-2002 |
Mine is an ex Donohue T70 CanAm car that I've couped. If you search you'll find more on it and a photo of it in off topic "Mr Glickenhaus' MK-IV" Making these cars street legal is really quite simple as 1967 is the last year before any pollution systems were required and meeting the safety requirements of 1967 aren't too hard. When I registered my MK-IV in New York the computer accepted the vin # J6! The Lola makes a great street car. 1967 race cars had enough ground clearance to make driving them on the street possible. The main problem is overhang, the distance from the center of the front axel to the tip of the nose. If it's too long getting into your driveway is a problem. My TR was much worse than my MK-IV or my Lola. The P4 isn't too bad but it's starting procedure probably precludes leaving it with a valet parker... | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Junior Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2002 |
Very true. These vintage cars are not daily drivers, and if they were their owners would most likely run to their nearest "family" car dealership. What kind of Lola do you have? You can drive it on the road? You must've done some work on it to make it road legal. I have been considering getting one to track and get a foot in the historic racing environment and test the waters. I was looking at a T210, which I hear is a wonderful starter for vintage events. I love the earlier T70's from the mid sixties (1966 Surtees Championship winner and Donohue's Penske/Sunoco car...WOW!). | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 140 Registered: 10-2002 |
Taek Hey no one was more surprized than me to find I liked the Cambiocorsa. Driving my crash box CanAm Lola Spyder on the highway late at night is something I can feel, much as you could feel the waves at the beach when you were a kid lying in your bed later that night, 30 years later. It's just that that much sensory imput is somehow more powerfull when taken in measured doses... | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Junior Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jumping in kind of late, but my on to my defense. Brian, I started my sentence clearly with "Not a fair comparison, but..." I was just letting the people reading the thread know of my limited experience with any sort of F1 shifting technology. The fact that the closest I've come is the Porsche's lame (in my opinion) tiptronic is only a testament to my tendency to prefer the stick. I'm just giving my 2 cents. I grew up with my dad's prewar Bentleys and learned to drive on a stick car. Every car I have purchased has been a stick shift. I love vintage racing and old cars before the new ones. I'm the type of guy who drools over Mr. Napolis's (sans Cambiocorsa, I'm afraid) collection. I appreciate the F50's and Enzos but I'd much rather have a vintage testarossa, although unfortunately I'm in no condition to have either! Having driven my dad's Bentleys I admire anyone who can REALLY drive one of those things. I've never felt more "connected" to a car in my life. I took a test drive for a 355 when they were first coming out and the experience was nowhere near as visceral as when I was sitting copilot to my father's friend driving his 275 GTB. To some that's a good thing. Everything from the sound to the way the controls felt (playing with the car while it was parked) was better in the vintage car for me. It seemed almost like the vehicle was tailored to the driver, not so much snapped together by machines. Phew! That's enough for me.  I just hope you guys understand where I'm coming from. My intention was not to compare apples to oranges. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 262 Registered: 3-2001 |
sequential....now that would be awesome | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 360 Registered: 3-2002 |
I've driven both now... and both on the same car. The 360. I really like the F1 system, it's actually more fun. How about a sequential system? | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 136 Registered: 10-2002 |
WM You're right about crashboxes. The Duesey's a crashbox you have to double clutch up and down. When I first got my Lola it had a 4 speed Hewlet crash box. I was younger then and used to drive it in it's spyder configuration on the street. It took me a year to get used to that box. When I couped it I put in a 5 speed ZF. The P4 box is interesting. It's a 5 speed with a conventional gate but it's sequential in that you have to go up and down in order 4 to 5, 5 to 4. You can't go from 5 to 3 without engauging 4th first. | ||
| David Burch (Merlyn)
New member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 29 Registered: 8-2002 |
I agree, why not both. From a technical standpoint it doesn't seem that hard to do. I have a F1 now, have driven a 550 and loved it, have a 575 on order and am undecided on which transmission. Why not both? I've had the F1 on the track several times, and I don't think its prefect for that, but software could fix that. Where it really shines is backroad sunday drives. My other sunday driver http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid16/pc3c7a1ddc6c99a8858482ffaaa94dc50/fdf29353.jpg | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 612 Registered: 12-2001 |
This theme has emerged many times here, with the same result: equally divided opinions, no one persuading the other camp. I had a 355 F1, learned how to use it pretty quickly, and frankly, for street driving, found it very uninvolving. There is no question that it is easier to do than the stick, and that, all other things being equal, you can concentrate on your line, braking etc. without the additional machinations of the stick/clutch. And, for the track, perhaps this is a good thing. But, given the performance threshold of these cars, on the street, it raises the potential of non-seasoned drivers to even greater heights. That may be a good thing, but i'm always amazed at the skill of drivers who can handle anything:- old style footpedal configurations, crash gearboxes, insane speeds in those big ol' Bentley pre-wars, etc. To me, it comes back to the driver, and what the driver personally finds "engaging." Perhaps there is no right answer, then. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 678 Registered: 8-2002 |
James, If you ever need anyone to wash your cars...I'm your man M | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 135 Registered: 10-2002 |
I really don't understand why it has to be either or. I enjoy them all. My Duesenberg has a 3 speed non syncro box, my MK-IV Syncro 4 speed, Lola syncro 5 speed, P4 syncro 5 speed, Maserati coupe cambiocorsa (F1) 6 speed. It's like your friends each one is fun in there own way. Love em all.. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
New member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 45 Registered: 10-2002 |
The next Ferrari that I am going to get will be a manual, that is for sure. I am determined to give it a try. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 550 Registered: 2-2002 |
Matt has a good point. The F1 gearbox seems to appeal to the video game generation; others go for the 6 speed and neither side will ever understand the other. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
New member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 44 Registered: 10-2002 |
Would it be safe, though? | ||
| Todd Gieger (Todd328gts)
Member Username: Todd328gts Post Number: 262 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have always been a die hard manual fan yet so is a buddy of mine who had the opportunity to let it rip with the F1...and he has switched teams...I haven't given it a fair chance but I must admit the novelty of the F1 must diminish after awhile...I think it is really slick technology. Anyway, I'm with Scott's original post-Why not both on the same car? I would definitely buy an FCar that had both F1 and 6Spd Cheers, TTG | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 907 Registered: 2-2001 |
I am never going back to the manual tranny. I have had the F1 for more than two years now on my 360, and it is the best experience I have had - I just love it to death. No problems, and VERY exciting. I really don't think I would enjoy my 360 as much if it was a manual, and all my future Ferraris will be F1. Ernesto | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 261 Registered: 3-2001 |
I think J.D.'s comment: "I drive my 2002 F1 harder and faster than I did my 2001 6 spd." is a perfect example of one of my points. . That is, taking the 'hard' part (I think it is the skill 'part') out of the equation, makes people faster. Reason being is that they do not have to 'deal' with working the gearbox. . It does not make one a bad person, lets just call a spade a spade. . The BMW SMG is nowhere as refined as the Ferrari F1 gearbox. Again, just my jaded perspective. | ||
| J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Junior Member Username: Jeff Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2001 |
As other F1 owners have said, until you live with an F1 car for a few weeks you can't appreciate how great the F1 is. Taking a short test drive at a dealer probably won't convince you to spend the extra $10K for the F1. I drive my 2002 F1 harder and faster than I did my 2001 6 spd. Lastly, as some of you know BMW is only going to offer the SMG transmission (their version of the F1). BMW president said," It's the BEST way to get the MOST out of your car." And that sums it up for me. I want to get the most from my Ferrari. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 260 Registered: 3-2001 |
Brian, I have driven several 360 Challenge Cars at Lime Rock, Watkins Glen, Summit Point as well as Pocono. My lap times at Lime Rock and The Glen were competitive with the top drivers in the 360 Challenge Series. . You wrote: "Just bringing either into this discussion is evidence that you need to go drive the F1. And I mean, really drive it." . I believe I have 'really' driven it. . To be quite honest, for you to be of the impression that the only way to seamlessly change gears during a turn, or for that matter, any where/any time/any situation is only possible with an F1 gearbox gives me the impression you are not able to REALLY work the drivetrain of a car while driving nine or ten tenths. The F1 gearbox buys one the ability to do things one would not be able to do otherwise. Mechanically speaking, you are correct. The F1 gearbox is not an automatic. But that is just semantics. It is a video game which takes the fun out of working a masterpiece of a machine! Sure, pulling the paddle is nice to do when in traffic, but it has nothing to do with 'working' the gearbox! Oh, upshift time?? Pull the right paddle. A quick 5 - 3 downshift under threshold braking?? Just a couple of left wrist flicks away!! And guess what??? PERFECT!! Yup, really working that piece of machinery perfectly. And I mean PERFECT!! Mastered that machine! . You wrote: "...you are definitely in control of the drive train... you're just not manually moving the clutch via a pedal. In fact, I'd argue you're more in control of the drivetrain... unless you happen to be gifted with 3 legs and 3 arms." . You control the drivetrain via a remote control device located on the steering column. Playing with that device should not lead one to believe they are in more control of anything. . Being at one with your gearbox, being able to do things you think are only possible with the F1 system, is what controlling your gearbox is ALL ABOUT. If and when you get there, you will understand it is not necessary to have 3 legs and 3 arms. . Yes, mere mortals can do such things. | ||
| Chris A. (Asianbond)
Junior Member Username: Asianbond Post Number: 95 Registered: 5-2002 |
Not many experiences in life compare to executing a perfect heel/toe downshift from 3rd to 2nd right before taking a tight corner. The sound of the engine revving to higher rpm as you blip the throttle is truly a symphony to be heard. Doubt you can replicate that sensual aura with a F1. Some ferrari owners will never know.... | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
New member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2002 |
The F1 on the latest 360 is very good. But I hear that the earlier generations can give rise to criticisms. Ferrari F1s are said to be in their 3rd generation now. I wonder whether the F1 system in the 575M is the same, or any better? | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 147 Registered: 3-2002 |
First, the F1 system is NOTHING like an automatic or the Tiptronic. Just bringing either into this discussion is evidence that you need to go drive the F1. And I mean, really drive it. I will agree that it is fun to work the gears... to complete that perfectly smooth heel-and-toe downshift... to row through six gears in twice as many seconds... But its also fun to execute a perfect downshift in the middle of a slalom transition... where you have to execute the shift mid-transition or risk upsetting the car and spinning... but mid-transition is the point at which you are moving the steering wheel most quickly and need to be getting on the gas as soon as the car's weight shifts across... no time for a mere mortal to be rowing the gearbox. Its always fun to have onlookers come up afterword and ask "Damn, did I hear you downshift in the middle of that corner?" And while the clink of the Ferrari stick is charming, its nothing compared to the beautiful engine noises... and downshifting produces great noises... and its sooo easy to do that all around town with the F1. I like having a great stereo in my cars, too... but I almost never play the one in my Ferrari... prefer listening to the engine... and the F1 enhances that. (I'm too lazy to heel-and-toe downshift into every damn corner around town... even if I love the sound.) Final note... unlike an automatic where you are NOT in control of your drivetrain... and unlike Matt's comment... with the F1, you are definitely in control of the drive train... you're just not manually moving the clutch via a pedal. In fact, I'd argue you're more in control of the drivetrain... unless you happen to be gifted with 3 legs and 3 arms. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Junior Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2002 |
I agree with you Matt. One of the major things that hooked me to the Fcar was the metallic sound of the gear lever as I clumsily pushed it in position. There is something very satisfying about completing a series of well performed shifts/downshifts. Not a fair comparison, but when I was purchasing my Porsche, I tried out their tiptronic system and it was a night and day difference. To put that automatic in such a well sorted car is almost blasphemous. To Ferrari's credit I've heard their paddle shifting 'box is leaps and bounds better. Maybe I'll drag my butt to a dealer one day and try one out! | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 259 Registered: 3-2001 |
I think the F1 paddle shifters, while good, take away from the overall driving experience. Might as well buy an automatic if you can't understand the joy of meshing gears like you are a component of the car. Really, for the most part, an F1 gearbox is an automatic gearbox. It will override any mistakes in shifting you might make while driving. I find it amusing when people have their first track learning experience in a paddle shift car. Oh, to never know the thrill of actually controlling the drivetrain of your Ferrari! Yes, in hardcore racing, (and I'm talking about those drivers who are at the track lap record times already) there is an advantage to the F1 system. In my opinion, if that is not the type of racing taking place, why would you go that route? . I KNOW I PROBABLY PISSED OFF SOME OF MY FELLOW FERRARICHATTERS, AND IM SORRY FOR THAT. NOTHING PERSONAL!!!! . Just my jaded opinion. . Let the fireworks begin! | ||
| Scott A. B. Collins (Scott)
Junior Member Username: Scott Post Number: 88 Registered: 6-2001 |
I've been ruminating on this for a while, especially after going through any of the numerous "F1 vs. 6 sp" threads on this board. Why not both on the same car? It seems like you could have a disconnect/bypass system for the clutch activation, whether via the pump/electronics or a pedal. Perhaps the clutch pedal could just send a signal to the electronics--it is now done with throttle and brakes on various marques. Thus, when you want to play Michael, your good to go. When you want to show off your heel and toe prowess, your good to go (we all know how to heel and toe on this board, right?). Random thoughts... |