| Author | Message | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1692 Registered: 9-2001 |
Some of you guys are getting ripped off. I had the dual disc clutch replaced on my Boxer for $2500.00 parts and labor. That included having a lot of exhaust flanges, donuts ect. replaced as well. | ||
| Matt Bradley (Ghostridr)
New member Username: Ghostridr Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2002 |
I'm getting ready to put in a Centerforce dual-friction in my Pantera, and have the transmission's ring gear safety-wired. Labor cost: $275. Clutch cost: $450. | ||
| Lou Papaleo (Papaleo1)
New member Username: Papaleo1 Post Number: 25 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hey Guys, I went through this whole deal last October. My dual-disk clutch setup was installed before I bought the car - at 11500 miles. The damn thing began to slip at 15000 miles! With the help with a bunch of the guys on this forum, I shopped independents as well as Miller in CT. The labor was about the same. The issue was the parts. . .and they were damn expensive. As I recall, the dual disk clutch replacement job was estimated at $5k, including a new flywheel. With a flywheel repacking, it could have been done for mid $ 3k range, but the job could not be guaranteed. The conversion was estimated at $7k. It actually cost in the mid $ 6k range. I opted for the conversion. If the sucker has to be changed again, I won't have to relive this nightmare. A single-clutch replacement will cost only in the $ 2k range. As I saw it, it was worth the extra money now to not have to revisit this. In addition, the single disk setup is less prone to wear in everyday use. I have not felt a difference between the single disk and the double disk in my useage. Did I make the right decision? I haven't lost any sleep since it the job was done, despite the fact that I am out nearly $ 7k! Hope this helps. | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Junior Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2002 |
Noel: There are numerous threads here about the 348 clutch. If you can't do the work yourself, I suppose $1900 isn't TOO bad, $3000 is ridiculous. It depends on what you get for your money. A straight job to replace only the disc and plate can be done by any experienced mechanic in 2.5 - 3.0 hours. Sodacom lists the parts for $884. You do the math, labor is about $300/hour. Does the estimate include new exhaust donuts, or any flywheel work, or a release bearing, or shaft seals? Probably not, hopefully these will not be needed, they will be extra. My 2 cents: Find out EXACTLY what is covered in the $1900 estimate, and get an quote on what they will charge to do additional work. Ask to see any "problem areas" before authorizing the additional work. And INSIST on having the used parts returned to you. A worn out disc can be relined, and the plate may need only minor remachining. This isn't trying to kill the profit for your mechanic, this is just insuring that you get what you pay for. | ||
| Viken Bedrossian (Vikenb)
Junior Member Username: Vikenb Post Number: 221 Registered: 5-2001 |
While we are on this subject, check out the new VW DSG dual-clutch paddle shift transmission. Said to be used by VW, Audi and Porsche in the near future. http://www.vwvortex.com/news/11_02/11_28/index.shtml  | ||
| Craig (Beachbum)
New member Username: Beachbum Post Number: 36 Registered: 9-2002 |
whats the Vin# when they went to the single disk in the 348? | ||
| Noelrp (Noelrp)
Junior Member Username: Noelrp Post Number: 160 Registered: 8-2001 |
If you dont need a new flywheel, stay with the dual disc setup. I am in the process of getting my clutch replaced as well(my car has a single disc). The estimate cost incl. labor is $1900 & the dealer wants $3k. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 133 Registered: 11-2002 |
So what do you guys think then, should I switch to the single disc when its time to do the clutch? | ||
| Noelrp (Noelrp)
Junior Member Username: Noelrp Post Number: 158 Registered: 8-2001 |
To determine if your 348 has dual or single disk clutch, check your engine number (per my mechanic - according to Ferrari). If your engine number is above 24980 then you have the updated single-disc clutch. | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Junior Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 201 Registered: 9-2001 |
Steve, I just looked up at my bill since my 348s clutch was changed from dual to single clutch last year. The flywheel is still needed at the single clutch. Bad news since this part is the most expensive thing of the clutch and makes whole exchange quite costly. The mechanic told me that on the new single plate clutches there is less wear and should be a smoother handling. To be honest I never noticed any considerable difference. As far as I know the 348 were randomly equipped by either single or dual clutches from the factory. This should lead us to the conclution that there isn�t much difference between them although now only single disc clutches can be mounted (The only one Ferrari still offers officially according to my dealer). Hope this could help a bit. Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 1346 Registered: 1-2001 |
So if 348s came with both dual-disk and single-disk clutch pack designs do both designs use the troublesome "bi-mass" flywheel? | ||
| Matthew F (Mateotnt)
New member Username: Mateotnt Post Number: 23 Registered: 7-2002 |
Multi-disc clutches were popular for the simple reason that they offered more friction surface than a similar sized single disc clutch. Two things have changes that allow single disc clutches to handle more torque: 1) Materials have improved 2) Centrifigal weights have been used to apply an increasing amount of clamping pressure as the pressure plate and flywheel spin faster. There is nothing inherent in a multi-disc setup that makes it more of an on-off button. But, in general, the multi-disc is used where you want more clamping force, so stronger springs are used which would provide that digital feeling. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Junior Member Username: Psk Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2002 |
My 2 cents worth ... From an engineering point of view a dual disk/plate clutch of the same diameter as a single disk can handle more torque. This is because there will be twice the clamping surface. A dual disk clutch of the same diameter as a single will not seriously affect the rotating mass as the mass is close to the rotation centre. This is why when you lighten a flywheel you remove the weight from the outer edges for best effect ... Infact you should be able to design a smaller diameter dual disk clutch that has the same torque handling characteristics as a larger single disk clutch and thus improve the rotating mass situation. Lets remember that F1 use multi-disk clutches for both the torque and rotating mass reasons ... they would have to have an enormous single plate clutch that would make the motor rev like a Cummins diesel  Why multi-disk clutches do not suit road applications has been stated, and is because of heat dissipation and more parts and thus more complication, wear and noise. And yes they do not like to slip because of the intermediate plates sliding on the splines, and heat build-up. Infact racing multi-disk clutches have to have time to cool down to continue to be reliable ... Modern materials have moved them back to the track ... and you don't want slipping with racing anyway as it slows the gear changes down (assuming you use the clutch on the up shifts). My last twin disk racing clutch had disks without springs and the surface material was like sandpaper ... thus no slip at all, but lightening fast gear changes ... no road use anyway . Beautiful clutch ... Pete | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 310 Registered: 4-2002 |
Depends upon what you think "better" means: A dual disk systenm should have less rotational inertia than a single disk of the same braking torque rating (is a simple question of area). A dual disk contains a flywheel-disk, a clutch-disk, a transfer-disk, a clutch-disk, and a pressure-plate-disk. The transfer disk is prone to getting hot in cituations where lots of power is being transmitted with the clutch is in the friction zone. There are twice as many moving parts in a dual disk setup, with one part--the transfer disk, especially loaded at its fingers. (i.e. wear prone) So for (non drag) racing purposes the dual disk is a better setup. For cost, tollerance to abuse, lifetime (at some small cost to acceleration) single disks are best. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 128 Registered: 11-2002 |
So it sounds like back when my car was made dual disc was better than single disc is that correct? | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Junior Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 224 Registered: 8-2001 |
That's old technology Frank ! With new clutch designs and better compounds, there is no need for more friction surface so dual disks are not favored (as mentioned: weight). For ex, the early NSX's also had duals, the newer ones with more power are back to single. I recently drove a highly modified (NISMO) 350Z with a lightened clutch/flywheel and was amazed how better the shifts and accelerations were compared to stock, so I think rotating mass is very much the reason singles are favored. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 125 Registered: 11-2002 |
That's the way it feels on the foot I noticed. It seems like there is no in between, it's either out or in. Why do you think they choose the dual disc? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1682 Registered: 9-2001 |
My Boxer has a dual disc clutch as well. I believe they can handle more HP but are more prone to wear if they are slipped a lot. With a dual disc clutch, you must treat the clutch like a on/off switch. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 123 Registered: 11-2002 |
I have heard a lot of disscussion in the tech section of FC about dual disc vs single disc clutches. I am a novice on the subject but I could'nt help but wonder why Ferrari choose to use a dual disc over a single disc in the 348. There must have been some advantage or something to the dual disc. My assumption is that the dual disc can handle the extra HP better than the single disc but I'm not sure. certainly the engineers had a reason, what was it? If anyone knows about this I would be most interested in picking your brain on the subject! |