| Author | Message | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Junior Member Username: Peters Post Number: 109 Registered: 1-2003 |
In regard to the replies of racecars not having airbags for the reasons listed in the threads (BTW, I thank Pete-PSK for his post telling me I am not an idiot!  ), I believe that racecars CAN have airbags. One of the most popular methods to 'trigger' the airbag is a ferrite magnet (small ball) that is placed in a tube (Other methods include the use of A/D converters and switching transistors). This tube is in the bumper area of most cars. Upon impact, the magnet is displaced to the opposite end of the tube. This is what triggers the airbag to 'go off'. As the magnetic property value (of the magnet) increases, so does the required speed upon impact to trigger the airbag...See where I am going with this? The auto or airbag manufacturer can specify the value of the magnet. They can govern the design to 'go off' at 5MPH or 90MPH...Its all in the magnet, thus airbags should not entirly be ruled out for race cars. The supplier for the above mentioned patent is Kane Magnetics of Kane,PN. I have been through their plant and have seen the manufacturing of this device. Its damn clever! They build several million of these devices per year for the auto industry. More information can be located by logging on to www.uspto.gov and searching for Vehicle Impact Severity Identification Devices. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 399 Registered: 2-2003 |
Pete, that was the first of the F-5000 derived Can Am of 1978 on. I don't have any pics (and very little computer capability!!) but imagine a McRae GM 1 with barely enveloping bodywork, and you've got the picture. Single seat, 1250lbs or so, small block Chevy with titanium valves and some other unobtanium parts, probably a real 540hp. Imaginary brakes, little downforce, and a steering rack Eric Broadley carefully positioned over the driver's shins!! Many drivers from that era have "Lola limp!" Anyway, enough off topic!! cheers, mate! | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 326 Registered: 11-2002 |
EFWUN, Can you post a picture (maybe start another thread, your call) or the T-333CS Lola, I am not familiar with what that is, but very interested Thanks Pete | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 390 Registered: 2-2003 |
Pete, I've never actually sat in any form of NASCAR stocker, but I met Richard Petty while preparing for the Can Am a week before the World 600 at Charlotte in 1979 (2 turns of the oval and a road course) He was a gentleman, and in our short conversation, asked me where my feet went in our T-333CS Lola. I said, right out front here, SIR (it was Richard Petty, after all), and he looked at me, smiled and said "Good luck to ya, Son!!" A NASCAR stocker is built like the Brooklyn bridge, but the increasing rigidity passed the point of saving life, and reached the point where unacceptably high G-loadings(not everyone is David Purley or from OZ)started to kill people. Similarly, an airbag in our eggshell-fragile T-333CS would have been pretty f***ing pointless!! I share your horror of ovals; my so-called "career" ended spectacularly on one!! | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 852 Registered: 12-2001 |
Most of my cars don't have airbags but I don't mind if they have them. I have kept up to date on the positives and negatives on them though. | ||
| Fayyaz Vellani (Fvellani)
Junior Member Username: Fvellani Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2002 |
My dad tried to get permission from the government to have a switch for the drivers and passenger airbags in my moms van...shes short, and sits so damn close that the airbag would do more harm than good for her...I think the gov't denied our request for some reason... | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 321 Registered: 11-2002 |
EFWUN, Interesting I can see what you are saying and have to agree. I do think that a stronger roof would help people in a roll over, maybe not in a car to car impact (as you state). Saying that this is why roll cages are supposed to be just around the cabin and to have collapsable zones front and rear. I have never seen a Nascar rollcage up close (only in pictures) and those cars have 3 times the steel that racing cars over here have ... thus I can see your point, if they won't budge at all that force has to go somewhere. I personally would never ever consider racing on an oval as it is just too dangerous with no run off area at all. Somebody also pointed out that you can remove your airbags, is that really true? ... I thought that would be against the law? Anyway, yep totally agree with collapsable zones, but believe that the roof of modern cars are way to weak and made to cheaply ... or maybe I just buy cheap cars I will also stand by my 4 wheel drive negative comments, as it has been proven that they are dangerous and it is a myth that they are strong and safer than normal cars ... they just feel strong because you sti so high and command the road. Australia is thinking of banning them in cities, or somehow making them a lot more expensive, via road tax to get them off the road and to stop the diesel and petrol wastage. Pete | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 383 Registered: 2-2003 |
If you remember, a few years ago Nascar had a rash of driver deaths, including Petty's grandson and a few others. The cars were intact, the rollcages functioned fine, but there was the driver, belted in and dead. Basal skull fractures, because the inflexible rigidity of the car created too much G on impact, and transferred that G into the driver's body. You need a bit of crush structure, and something to restrain the head and neck. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 382 Registered: 2-2003 |
No Peter, without animosity, I don't agree. You'd be surprised how many G's you pop in a road car accident. (As for racing, David Purley at Brands in the late '70s hit 100g and walked away, but he was from OZ, mate!!) I don't want to get into Dale Earnhardt, because my opinions will be unpopular. The issue with something like rollcages in road cars is the instantaneous transmission of forces. I posted earlier that Mercedes and Volvo have found that even a layer of cardboard insulation in doors lessens the likelihood of broken bones in a side impact, because it infinitesimely slows the transmission of force. Airbags may not be the ultimate answer, they may even be foolish, but I'm telling you, and asking you to trust someone who knows both physiology and physics, that there are impacts where a belted passenger with an airbag will walk away, while a belted-only passenger will remain in their seat, dead. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 319 Registered: 11-2002 |
EFWUN, A 50-70g impact ... I think you would be •••••• anyway with or without an airbag  With Dale Earnhardt, I think he was very unlucky. Lets face it motor racing is dangerous and surviving a big motor racing accident involves a lot of luck. You cannot save everybody all the time. Thus I believe that airbags are trying to do the impossible and yes I agree that for ROAD cars we should keep on trying, but airbags is not the right direction IMO. Why not just install roll cages in all cars. I believe that the most deaths occur when a car rolls or the roof collapses ... but ofcourse that would cost the manufacturer too much money and a side company like the companies that are making a fortune out of airbags would not have something to sell to the car companies to pass onto the user, etc. Thus in the end we have a half baked solution, because the car manufacturers do not want to spend 50 cents more per car, and think that the ocassional life lost is worth the extra profits they are making. The really useful and best thing the car manufacturers could take from motorracing (saloon cars, especially) is the safety work ... and roll cages within the windscreen pillars, and seats that are mounted on the roll cage so that they move inwards with side impacts instead of crushing the driver, etc. would be a mature move ... but it will never happen in this money drives everything world we live in. Now if I could just design another thingy to sell to the big car makers I could buy my first Ferrari ... and the car advertising guys would have something to fill their adds with. A good example of this is the rediculous 4 wheel drive movement at the moment, that keep on saying the separate chassis is stronger and the way to go. What a load of bullsh!t, it has been proven around 50 years ago and still more so with every saloon car that is built that the unitary construction (I will not say monocoque, as no road car is a true monocoque, but the advertisers like to bullsh!t) is heaps stiffer and better in accidents. They even did some crash tests in Australia and the 4 wheel drives are very weak, add to that their lack of manouverabilty (sp?) and you have very dangerous cars on our roads. But ofcourse the manufacturers do not care, because they have invented a new market. Thus now to have it all you have to have the sporting car, the 4 wheel drive gas wasting inefficient thing to take the kids in and to tow anything. Thus they are now selling twice the number of vehicles and laughing to the bank. People like my father who quite happily towed the family caravan to the camp site for holidays when we were little, still find it highly amusing that we are told now that you need a HUGE 4 litre 4 wheel drive to do that sort of thing, when we did it with a English 2 litre car no problems Thus I do not believe everything that the car manufacturers tell me, as I am sure and hope you don't, as our safety is not their first concern ... just turn over unfortunately. Pete | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 670 Registered: 1-2002 |
Mitch- on account of your proposed saftey measures (i.e. roll cage, 5 point, helmet, etc.) Yes, more lives would be saved. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 445 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hubert Otlik (Hugh) "Mitch- I don't think you're understanding me. " No, I understand you quite well. However, it is my considered opinion that more lives would be saved if "every passenger in a passenger car wore Nomex, a helmet, and drove a car with fastened 5-point harnesses, a roll cage, and accessible fire extinguishers" rather than "what we have now with 3-point slash belts (with "fasten belt" idiot light) and air bags." Do you agree or disagree? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1189 Registered: 6-2001 |
Believe it or not, I know someone that is trying to market an airbag for bikes. May be a great idea, but Im still thinking about this. Art | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 365 Registered: 2-2003 |
I get it. Nevetheless, you'd be surprised at how high the G-loading is in a normal road car wreck. Any subluxation of the cervical spine can be immediately fatal, as can any compression of the basal skull. I am absolutely in favor of seatbelt use, never move our cars without them. I'd even go for helmet use, along with HANS device; but I've listened to cops and nurses etc moaning about the arduous task of bucking the seatbelt, and I can tell you that such restraints (HANS etc) will never make it to road use. Hopefully, seatbelt use, or failure to use, is Darwinian selection in operation. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 666 Registered: 1-2002 |
EFWUN- I see the catalyst in toying w/ airbag use in F1 (the G's created during a shunt in an F1 car are HUGE v. nearly any other racing series) as it's one of latest series to advocate the use of the HANS (meant to restrain and prevent the basal injuries you've already described.) My comments pertain mostly to fendered race cars where neck restraints are the norm. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 357 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hubert and Mitch: Formula One recently toyed with the idea of requiring steering wheel mounted airbags. They decided instead to use the HANS device that immoblizes the driver's head longitudinally, and the cockpit/helmet surrounds that virtually immobilize the driver's head laterally. In either case, as in the use of airbags in road cars where drivers and passengers would intractably resist racing type safety equipment, the issue is to prevent unacceptably high and therefore lethal head accelerations. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 664 Registered: 1-2002 |
Mitch- I don't think you're understanding me. Race cars don't have airbags b/c they would go off under "normal" racing conditions (i.e., bumps, trading paint, etc.) and would inflate in the drivers face while coming up behind another car and nudging it; effectivly restricting his vision, and possibly causing a massive shunt! Also, how are you going to protect someones head in the event of a collision from the roll cage w/out mandating helmet use on public roads? Also, running harnesses on the street w/out roll over protection is a BAD idea, as, should you roll, you're most likely going to suffer a spinal compression that will end your life, or paralyze you; regular seatbelts are designed to allow the driver to avoid this should the roof deform. Like I've already said: racing protective devices don't translate well onto road cars. I also don't understand the malaise some have expressed over airbags being federally mandated equipment, it's an airbag, who gives a ••••? I'm much more dismayed at the severity of smog restrictions and the lack of decent (high octane) gas in the nation. Airbags? There's so much more to petition against. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 356 Registered: 2-2003 |
Whiplash occurs, if at all, when a vehicle is hit from behind, and the initial direction of force on the body is rearward, into the seat and headrest. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 355 Registered: 2-2003 |
PSK, you're right, you're not medically inclined. I'm not talking about whiplash, I'm talking about the head and neck snapping forward as the restrained body remains stationary, and the weight of the head snapping an internal structure called the basal skull. See, e.g, Dale Earnhardt. The instantaneous inflation of the airbag prevents the head from reaching full extension and pulling on these fragile internal processes. You have to understand the forces involved, 50-70g will pop tightly laced driving shoes off the feet in a race car impact. The same type of impact means that for a tenth or so, the head weighs 2,100lbs without a helmet, and that weight will snap the basal skull and rip out the foramina, and kill you dead. This isn't an opinion, this is FACT. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 444 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hubert Otlik (Hugh) "however, you should keep in mind race cars have: roll cages, 5/6 point harnesses, bucket seats, etc. to protect the driver, and the driver has: harness, helmet, neck restraints, etc. to protect himself in the event of an accident; " That is exactly my point--If you REALLLLLLY want to cut the death rate on the hiways (without drivers having to learn how to drive) this is the equiptment list you need! Notice air bags aren't on it! For the record: I always wear my belts, and have converted several of my cars to 4-point harnesses. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 662 Registered: 1-2002 |
Mitch- re: airbags in race cars. They are illegal primarily b/c racers trade paint, bump (front bumper to rear), go off, etc. all of which are inherant to the sport, skill, show that is racing; the deployment of an airbag under such conditions would obscure (a grand understatement) the drivers view causing him to a. crash into a wall, tire barrier b. crash into another car c. not be able to drive as racing drivers drive; however, you should keep in mind race cars have: roll cages, 5/6 point harnesses, bucket seats, etc. to protect the driver, and the driver has: harness, helmet, neck restraints, etc. to protect himself in the event of an accident; you can't use a parallel of airbag prohibition in racing to justify their exclusion in road cars. Lastly, airbags, and all of their associated ramblings, weigh a hell of a lot (airbag, propellent, airbag computers, sensors, etc.) and obviously, in racing, these, like a/c, become superfolous. PS- I always wear my seatbelt. PPS- If anyone is really against having an airbag in their car, they have the option to have them disconnected. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3326 Registered: 2-2001 |
People need to learn to f_ckin read on this site. Half of these stupid b_tch and moan threads are because someone does not read a post correctly. It's painfully clear what PSK said and I said it also that if you don't wear your seat belt you are an idiot, not that people that do wear their seat belts are idiots and notice also no reference was made on my part about the implementation of side airbags, which I do approve of in most normal cars. I am strongly against government bullsh_t though in making also these dumbass laws. If airbags are that much better then consumers will demand them and they will gain acceptance without government intervention... anyone heard of the capitalist system... Ferrari does not need to provide airbags and it is a shame they are ignorantly required to do so. If you're in a 45" high car made of tissue paper and hit anything with force you've got much bigger problems than an airbag is gonna solve. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 312 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hmmmm, Peter, my post in your other thread regarding 'When did Ferraris start adding airbags ...' has caused quite a lot of excitment. I need to retract a little and explain my comment. I stated that 'Airbags are for idiots that do not wear a seat belt'. What I meant by this is that airbags were primarily designed for this purpose, that is to protect a person who has chosen (no matter how convincing the advice regarding how safety belts save lives ...) to not wear a safety belt. That was the design brief. Thankfully I believe that 99.9% of drivers and passengers now wear safety belts ... but amazingly Princes Diana died because she was not wearing her safety belt. If she had been, I believe that she would be alive today. A very sad example of this ignorance, and it will not happen to me, etc. The other comment I have read in this thread relates to neck injuries. My understanding is that whiplash (BTW I am not a medical person) injuries caused the design of the headrest ... not for lazy people to have an extra snooze while driving. Thus if you are correctly belted in a modern car with a headrest I do not believe that an airbag will make a huge enough difference to justify the accidentally deployment and huge investment, etc. BTW if you are in a large enough accident that you hit the steering wheel (God forbid), again I do not believe that the airbag would have helped that much ... but I could be wrong here. Lets face it the steering wheel is a very dangerous thing in an accident ... maybe this is one of the reasons Mercedes and others are looking at the central joy stick control for the future. Please note that I did not mean to imply that you were an idiot because you support airbags, but instead that people who do not wear safety belts are absolutely completely stupid and should be denied a drivers license due to the lack of common sense and sufficient brain and thinking compacity to make safe decisions on our conjested roads. Pete | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Junior Member Username: Peters Post Number: 108 Registered: 1-2003 |
WOW! What replies! Ernesto asked who was giving me a hard time about this subject. Please read my post from last week asking what year did Ferrari start placing airbags in their cars. I had a few replies from those that thought airbags are for idiots. Pete | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 437 Registered: 4-2002 |
Did anyone ever notice that air bags are illegal in racing cars? Hmmmmmmm! Ever wonder why? | ||
| Patrick S. Perry (Psp1)
Junior Member Username: Psp1 Post Number: 138 Registered: 3-2001 |
Martin, funny you should mention the seatbelt argument. I went for a ride with a friend in a 2 seat Globe Swift aircraft in 1985. It was equipped with 4 point harnesses that we were both wearing. During the flight, one of the ailerons stuck in full throw - we ended up hitting the side of a canyon at approx. 135 knots. As the plane was breaking up, my harness (and me) broke free of the wreckage and I was ejected through the metal roof of the cockpit. The paramedics found me about 200 yards from the rest of the aircraft with my friend still strapped in, but dead. I survived because I was ejected - broken, but alive. I won't go ANYWHERE without having my seatbelt securely fastened at ALL times. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 348 Registered: 2-2003 |
I think people were giving Peter Sedlak a hard time for asking when Ferrari started putting airbags in the cars. I'm not sure why. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1377 Registered: 2-2001 |
Agreed. BTW, who ever said airbags were for idiots? Ernesto | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 344 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ernesto,-- I don't even move our cars in a parking lot without a seatbelt, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that if you're gonna have a BIG shunt, your life will depend on everything working together, including the airbag. Additionally, Mercedes puts their tech into their small cars, and most people who can afford a Crown Vic can afford $350/month and lease a C-class. I'm not being elitist, I'm fortunate to be able (by hard work) to afford Mercedes for my family, and I do so! Lou,-- I'm not saying airconditioned seats like Benz has, or some of the stuff (I HATE the Comand center on my parents' S) are not gimmicky. Nevertheless, I'll bet there is a safety reason MB doesn't have adjustable pedals. It is unfortunate that MB hasn't adapted your car to your wife; but it sounds like you've found a solution. I've never found Mercedes U.S.A. to be particularly helpful or friendly either. (I buy the car anyway for the safety of it). Manu,-- I totally agree. There's NO excuse for not wearing seatbelts, and perhaps the falsely macho idiots who refuse to wear them will be subject to a little Darwinian intervention! (Not really, will take too long!!) | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4184 Registered: 5-2001 |
BTW you can make the same argument for seatbelts. There is accidents you are better off being ejected from the vehicle, than remain in it. I still have not seen one race car driver drive without his harness on. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4183 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lou has a point here. Had the adjustable in a rental F150 and they were great. Good for me and my wife to drive and be comfortable and away from the steering wheel. As for the bag or not, the statistics are pretty good for them. Just ask the Organ Donation List. They have some serious problems since the airbags became common. The best organs you get are from vehicle accidents. If they have problems since then, it must work. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 137 Registered: 4-2001 |
I am not in any way implying Ford is more safty conscience than Mercedes. I love my S55. Its just about perfect but I am disapointed that the it is not friendly and perhaps dangerous for small women. Besides, why are adjustable pedals more "gimmicky" than adjustable steering wheels and 15 way ,air conditioned, massageing power seats and power headrests front and rear? | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1376 Registered: 2-2001 |
EFWUN, it is great that you, and maybe most (some) of us here, can afford to buy high end automobiles with cutting edge airbag and crumple technology. But, fact is that most people cant afford to buy brand new benzos and have to "settle" for Explorers, Crowne Vics, etc. My accident was in a 2002 Pathfinder with front and side airbags, and they made the accident much more dangerous than it otherwise should have been. The simple fact that your hands are forcibly removed from the steering wheel when the airbags deploy seems very dangerous to me. While I agree that airbags offer added protection, they have many negative side effects that make me think twice about them. Seat belts are by far the best protection in an accident (they saved my life 13 years ago). Ernesto | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 674 Registered: 2-2002 |
What confuses me is that when a seatbelt exists in a car, a SUPER-POWER airbag is required for those people who refuse to wear their belt... Pretty much everyone in the UK wears their belt, no need for hyper airbags here... What I can't understand is that people demand a very powerful, DANGEROUS airbag to save their life but will not use the most effective motoring safety device their is... Toooo macho??? Bit silly IMO. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 343 Registered: 2-2003 |
Incidentally, Ford gave us the Pinto, the Explorer (Exploder) situation, and there are currently lawsuits developing by many State Police departments for troopers killed and maimed in Crown Vics and Grand Marquises, with guess what? Faulty wiring draped over the gas tank fillers, that can ignite the gas upon rear impact!! Substantially similar (from what I hear) to the Pinto. How can you compare Ford to Mercedes on the basis of a gimmicky adjustable pedal assembly? Mercedes have accident investigators who go to the scene of every Mercedes accident in Germany, and evaluate the function of the car. Ford? I'd imagine they send lawyers, and destroy the memo detailing the cost-benefit analysis relating to fixing the problem!! (See, e.g., the PINTO) | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 342 Registered: 2-2003 |
I don't know, Lou, it wouldn't surprise me! As to the pedals, Mercedes are very proud of their mechanism that retracts the brake pedal in an accident measuring a certain amount of G-loading (to prevent broken hips). I'd imagine (but I'm not certain) that would be the reason for the non-adjustable pedals. While I sympathize with you about the situation regarding your wife, after a lot of research, I believe Mercedes makes the best, safest car out there, bar none. Quite a few manufacturers provide gimmicks like adjustable pedals rather than providing a substantial, immaculately engineered vehicle. Just my opinion. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 136 Registered: 4-2001 |
EFWUN: Don't get too excited about Mercedees. I had to get custom pedal extenders made for my S55 AMG because my smallish wife, no matter what we tried with the 99 power adjustments could get more than 3 inches from the airbag and still see the road and reach the pedals. Mercedes North America, on advise of lawyers I suspect, wouldn't even discuss the problem with me or explain why they don't have power adjustable pedals like many Ford products at 1/4 the price. They have power everything else. I understand the Feds have finally woken up (or been kicked into action) and will require adjustable pedals in a few years. Any truth to the story that many cops and staties have their airbags disconnected so they don't go off when bumped in a hot pursuit or road block? | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 341 Registered: 2-2003 |
MFennel, I think the flaw in the argument (without any personal animosity, you understand!) is that there is NO EXCUSE for those fools who don't wear seatbelts, but a lot of research and a fair modicum of medical knowledge leads me to believe that seatbelts alone will, on a lot of occasions, fail to protect an occupant fully. The vulnerability of humans to basal skull and neck fractures (resulting in instant death) is too well documented to believe that airbags are useless. Airbags, however, are no substitute for a proper set of belt restraints. With all this in mind, those people who told Peter that "airbags are for idiots" invite us to question the depth of their thoughts on the subject | ||
| Mfennell70 (Mfennell70)
Junior Member Username: Mfennell70 Post Number: 107 Registered: 7-2001 |
The early, more powerful airbags (the killers) were that way *specifically* because the government required them to be. The requirement was something like "protect an UNBELTED occupant of 175lbs in a collision of X mph". That requires a powerful bag. A friend of mine is a webmaster for NHSTA and we've had some good arguments. My view is that if the bags kill ONE person who was properly belted and would have been otherwise OK, they should not be in cars. He sides with the statistics - they save more than they kill. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 339 Registered: 2-2003 |
I'm not sure we can really blame Big Brother for airbag problems. I think we can blame a lack of corporate conscience among many (american) manufacturers. These guys just do whatever the bean counters say will work best; if it costs less to pay off the dead and injured than it would cost to fix the problem right, well, guess what? They don't fix the problem, from airbags that decapitate children, to the Pinto which exploded if hit in the rear while the left turn signal was on!! I'm no fan of Germany, but my wife and parents drive Mercedes, because I want to know they're coming home safely. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 338 Registered: 2-2003 |
Lou, I actually demand that my wife sit at the rear limits of the passenger seat, and our cars have the "weight" sensitive airbag sensors. (I wouldn't let a child sit in the front anyway!) There can't be many more ignominious ways of cutting a wonderful life short than to die in a road car going to get groceries, so I am kinda careful about this stuff. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 135 Registered: 4-2001 |
Air bags are a mixed story. No doubt they have saved some lives and probably have made some minor accidents worse. The biggest under reported story is the death rate for children and small women. Last year when I checked NTSB statistics, for every 100 lives "saved" from airbags based on statistical analysis comparing pre and post airbag years, THREE children or small women died from low speed airbag deployments like a child in a front car seat (now a no-no) being decapitated in a parking lot fender bender! Imagine any drug that killed 3%. It wouldn't last a day on the market no matter what the benifit was. Yes I know, modern airbgs are "better" whatever that really means. Does your wife or sig other really sit 10" from the airbag? The problem is no one in Gov will ever admit a mistake. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 118 Registered: 11-2002 |
I think it comes down to statistics. Something like: 100000 lives will be saved by airbag (with seatbelt) use, but 1000 lives will be lost due to malfunction, etc. The cost (1000 lives lost) is much less than the benefit (100000 lives saved). These are just made up numbers, but I'm sure the actual numbers are out there. I feel much safer in an airbag equipped car. Dom | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 293 Registered: 3-2001 |
Peter, I'm with you on this one.....There are always going to be accidents where an airbag didn't deploy as intended, or even became a contributing factor in an incident, but in the VAST majority of cases, it works perfectly. | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 337 Registered: 2-2003 |
Again, Ernesto, we're talking about modern sensors here, that don't go off in sideswipes etc. Tell you what, disconnect your airbags, and I'll continue to buy my family cars with the best airbag (and crush zone and build quality) available to me. We can each be happy! | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1375 Registered: 2-2001 |
A drunk driver side swiped me about a year ago (borderline head on colission). When the steering wheel airbag went off it pushed my hands off the wheel, and I could not steer the car from other traffic. As a result, the accident was much worse and affected many more poeple than it otherwise would have. The passenger got knocked unconscious from the bag and she had a swollen face for days (yes, she was wearing a seatbelt). The airbag made the accident much worse. For every positive example, there are negative ones. Ernesto | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 336 Registered: 2-2003 |
As usual, Dr. Tommy has a point, but airbag sensors are far more sophisticated now, and there are even airbags (mercedes!!) that have graded explosive charges, where explosive forcedepends on the measured severity of the impact. (remember, the original airbags used rocket propellant charges from F-4 Phantom and the like ejection seats!!) | ||
| EFWUN (Efwun)
Member Username: Efwun Post Number: 335 Registered: 2-2003 |
I've gotta come down on Peter's side, with some important caveats. An airbag can prevent the kind of catastrophic head snap that breaks the foramina and the basal skull, killing the victim instantly. With the airbag going off as the body whips forward against the seatbelt, the airbag supports the victim's head and neck, preventing death. (also cushions the thoracic impacts, preventing those nasty torn aortas!) Remember, the way an investigator knows if the victim was wearing a seat belt is by the melted seat belt material in the buckle! These forces are truly staggering. Similarly with side impacts, companies like Volvo and MB even found that a layer of cardboard in the doors decreases the instantaneous force on the victim, and spares bones and blood vessels. Remember, these forces are occurring in time frames of .005 sec! An airbag prevents the transmission of those instantaneous, deadly forces. (A torn aorta will ruin your day) The caveat is that in a catastrophic accident, which invades crush space, you can be damaged beyond repair even with an airbag, which is crushed just a surely as the victim. Trust me on this one, fellas, I did a ton of research before buying my parents and my wife big Benzes! | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 999 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think they mean they can be a big problem on their own sometimes. Like when you are backing out of a parking spot, you get bumped and the bag blows breaking your arm and shoulder. This actually happened. | ||
| Patrick S. Perry (Psp1)
Junior Member Username: Psp1 Post Number: 135 Registered: 3-2001 |
Pete, I don't think that an airbag would have saved you as much injury as you might expect. A head-on incident with a closing speed of 70mph will produce far more energy than a 90 degree collision at 50mph. The 50 mph T-bone might be more analagous to hitting an immovable object at 35-40mph since the tires of the truck she hit would slide upon impact. It sounds like your injuries were due more to the deformation of the unibody than the design of the restraint system. | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Junior Member Username: Peters Post Number: 105 Registered: 1-2003 |
I take great displeasure to read from posts that state I am an idiot because I have interest in an airbag! Heres one story: I was hit head-on while driving my '85 BroncoII at 35MPH by a truck twice the size driving at about 35MHP. The Bronco had no airbags and I was wearing my seat bealt. Upon impact, even with my belts on, the flex of the cab on impact put my head into the windshield and my chest bent the steering wheel to the dash. If I had an airbag, I would not have been knocked out cold and four of my ribs would not have been broken....Case two: My girlfriend drove through an intersection at the limit (50MPH) in her Grand Prix and T-boned a guy that ran a red light. She hit the other guys rear tire, a huge mud & snow on his raised Chevy truck. Her car was totaled and she walked away only a bit shaken. For those that implied I am an idiot, please reconsider based on the above. Thank you, Pete |