| Author |
Message |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 1646
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 6:25 pm: | |
Okay Frank, I was exagerrating. Still, there is more Mustang in the Esperante than just the engine. For example, the steering rack, ABS, independent rear suspension module, and parts of the floorpan and fire wall are all sourced from the Mustang. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2294
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 4:47 pm: | |
The new Panoz is not a rebodied Mustang at all. In fact, Ferrari/Alcoa has to pay to use the Panoz patent to form the aluminum body panels used on the 360, 550/575 and Enzo. Panoz refined the technique first developed in the aerospace industry. The car itself is a masterpiece of high tech engineering. It is only the engine that lacks the sophistication of other exotics. The Panoz factory also builds CART and Indy car chassis for various teams as well as builds race engines for many sports car teams including some Ferrari private teams. I attended the Panoz factory tour and you would not believe what they had behind their four walls. |
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member
Username: Wsawyer
Post Number: 818
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 1:55 pm: | |
True, Wayne, although their original car wasn't a rebuilt Mustang, although it was powered by Ford. |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 1637
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 10:18 am: | |
"...racing doesn't seem to have helped Panoz become a player..."
Bill, it's definitely due to the fact that Panoz isn't building a car from scratch that's powered by a respected powerplant (like McLaren), instead they are rebodying/tuning a Ford Mustang. Not the stuff supercars are made of. |
Jack (Gilles27)
Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 788
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 9:31 am: | |
Like everything else, the car market experiences periods of expansion, then contraction. This reminds me of 10-12 years ago when we first heard about the Jag, McLaren and Bugatti projects (plus others I'm probably missing). Just as quickly as these cars created a buzz, things seemed to flatline. Like Martin said, at least McLaren had a consistent racing presence to lean back on. Ferrari and Lambo have always made high-performance sports cars, while these others seem to be "dabbling". What happens when, 5 years after you've purchased one of these cars, the company folds, as some inevitably will? |
Tenney (Tenney)
Member
Username: Tenney
Post Number: 362
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:54 am: | |
Re: room for all of these cars. Economy may need a fresh pyramid scheme (Junk bonds, dot.coms) to support these brands. Timing's key. Seems that, in recent years (past fifteen, or so), super-exotics are concepted/developed during the boom and launched during the bust. History repeats? |
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member
Username: Wsawyer
Post Number: 809
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:29 am: | |
I agree, Martin, although racing doesn't seem to have helped Panoz become a player; probably due to their kit car image and bland styling. |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1237
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:29 am: | |
Bill
Yes CNN/FN "Talking Stocks" 2-3pm est thurs.
Best
Jim |
Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 4528
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:28 am: | |
And as far as Supercar:
All R&T does is measure top speed and 0-60 and all the things that "American" like.
Slap the Supercars around the track and see who is first. |
Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 4527
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:26 am: | |
It si all about how the racing team and engineering filters into the street cars.
With McLaren and Ferrari you have two great competitors in F1 that have invested a lot of $$$ into that program. The Enzo as the F1 from Mc Laren are products influenced by F1 and both are not money losing programs.
In fact at the original 350 units the Enzo paid for itself and some of the cost of F1s engineering that was pushed over to the streetcar side AND made a small profit. The extra 49 units are creme off the top!
The reason why this does not work for the others is simple. There is no heritage and mystique that comes with Stryker. They have no racing team and do not compete in F1. Not that this late in the game these companies could. F1 has become a battle of the mega bucks and onle a few selected teams can compete at this level and are willing to. If Ferrari would start today they would be nothing but another Stryker.
|
ross koller (Ross)
Intermediate Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 1166
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:26 am: | |
the vanquish and slr are most definetely supercars. they may b slightly less exotic and come from manufacturers you know better, but they have the performance and price tag to be in that league. |
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member
Username: Wsawyer
Post Number: 807
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:25 am: | |
I agree, James, that the exotic/ultra-luxury car markets have too many players. This is also true in the affordable sports car segment as well.
When the plans for the Maybach, Bentley, etc. were put in place the tech market and the overall economy were booming. VW took over Lamborghini about the same time. The economic outlook has changed and there aren't enough buyers to support all the players. I'm no expert, but it seems that the music industry is also suffering, and that can have a drastic effect on mega-buck car sales as well.
The Saleen is a questionable long-term player. Tony Johnson, the $$ man behind the car, tried to pawn it off on another car-building entrepreneur I know not too long ago.
History repeats itself. Remember when high-dollar sports cars were rotting on dealer's lots? It could happen again...
BTW James, are you going to be on CNN tomorrow at 2 pm? |
DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member
Username: Sickspeed
Post Number: 3867
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:18 am: | |
i wouldn't consider the Aston Martin or the MerceDES super cars... The Enzo, the Carrera GT, the Veyron, the McLaren, the Pagani, the Saleen - yes; but not Aston & MerceDES... They just seem like souped-up luxury cars to me; i'm not really into two door sedans... |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1235
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:08 am: | |
There's also that Ferrari will probably use the Enzo engine in the 460 and the entire car as the basis of the new Maser MC which makes sense. |
djmonk (Davem)
Junior Member
Username: Davem
Post Number: 250
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 9:53 am: | |
I doubt Ferrari is losing money on the Enzo. If so don't you think they would just raise the price accordingly. In its price range an extremely limited run that was sold out in advance they could sell them for another 200k an most buyers would not blink. |
Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 1460
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 9:15 am: | |
I highly doubt Ferrari is loosing 100K per Enzo. I heard they were making a HUGE amount of cash on the Enzo, and that the additional 50 they are producing will bring in many millions of Euros.
Ernesto |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1233
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 9:14 am: | |
Matt
Ford lost $88 million last year on their luxuary division: Aston,Jag,Land Rover, Volvo.
Ross
I do think it's filtering down. re Nissian 350 Honda 2000. when you add Bentley, Maybach, RR into the mix I still wonder if there'll be enough buyers.
I think F is smart to stay at 5K per year. |
"The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 4464
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 9:03 am: | |
It's all about profit, Smaller shops do not manufacture enough cars to make a money loosing supercar. P-car lost something like $300,000 PER 959. Ferrari is loosing $100,000 PER enzo.
It's all economics |
ross koller (Ross)
Intermediate Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 1165
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 9:02 am: | |
probably not, which is a good thing for those of us in the lower income brackets because they will eventually slide down to within reach. a lot of 'cheap' speed coming my way ! apart from my ferrari ambitions, i would love to have the pagani zonda c12s 7.3 ltr; enzo/macf1 numbers and the lowest price i have seen so far is Euro 325k, so relatively cheap.
on the other hand, the production numbers for all of these cars put together probably doesn't exceed 3000. so if you put that up against all the wealthy car nuts in the world....there probably won't be too many that sit on the showroom floor unsold for that long. |
"The Don" (Mlemus)
Advanced Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 4463
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 9:01 am: | |
James,
I don't think so but all those cars you listed, it this at that point is comes down to personal preferrence and availabilty. It comes down to "Ideal, want, get" I ideally want a Enzo, but I can get a Bugatti but I will settle for a S7.
In the long run thought it will always be Ferrari, P-car, Lamborghini, AM and Paginni that will out last the one off supercar market due to the name of the manufacturer.
Look how many times Bugatti has come back from the dead (no pun) by Audi, VW and soon to be etc. etc.
my .02 lira
Matt |
Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
Junior Member
Username: Rijk365gtb4
Post Number: 191
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 8:59 am: | |
Jim
Depends if your garage is big enough.
Rijk |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 8:56 am: | |
Yes |
Kevin Butler (Challenge)
Junior Member
Username: Challenge
Post Number: 157
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 8:50 am: | |
You mean Saleen (s7)? |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1231
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 8:49 am: | |
In the latest Road and Track there is a test of the new Shaleen which so far is the fastest road legal car they've ever tested beating the McLaren by a few tics. (Although not in top speed) As an aside it interesting to see that in terms of performance it's virtually the same as my 36 year old MK-IV. At the top ($/performance) we have the Bugatti and the Enzo. Then comes a LONG list of supercars: Shaleen,Pagnoni,Stryker,B2, Lambo,McLaren/MB,Aston Martin, Maser MC,new P supercar, etc.etc.etc.
Is there room for all of these cars? |