Author |
Message |
Russ Turner (Snj5)
Junior Member Username: Snj5
Post Number: 166 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 10:10 pm: | |
Any car, especially a road car, is a set of compromises. I have also read that the McLaren F1, a true masterwork on paper and in specification, needed serious reliability development work to be realistically thought of as the ultimate road car (what is the ultimate road car criteria anyway?). A real shame, as it is a brilliant bit of kit. This is always the limitation of very limited run highly technical cars - not enough development time and real world OT & E. Of course, people buy and regard those types of street cars mostly on specification alone, not on any real world expectations. In that regard - it was a success. I don't know, but I'll bet the Enzo has had a bit more development. |
Fayyaz Vellani (Fvellani)
Junior Member Username: Fvellani
Post Number: 69 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 8:57 pm: | |
From what I understand, the McLaren F1 wasnt meant to be a racecar for the streets, it was meant to be a useable supercar. Also, regarding the R&T #s, apparently to legally import an F1, there were many, many revisions which had to be made (costing $100,000+ for the first few F1s) which likely added weight/robbed power, and also, I doubt that the R&T tests were done all out, as I would for sure be slightly pissed if some magazine ran the out of my million dollar supercar. |
PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk
Post Number: 479 Registered: 11-2002
| Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 7:37 pm: | |
Andrew, Can you post a picture of the Maserati Bora, one of my favourite cars. So clean and useable ... for a Maserati. Jim, Paint prep does take a long time doesn't it ... still better to do it right than rush I guess. Also I like your comment about numbers, the most important number of them all! Pete ps: BTW the McLaren F1 cannot be run at full speed for too long as the gearbox over heats. Refer some magazine when they were trying to prove it was as fast as they state. Gordon Murray was there and they had to monitor the gearbox temp continuously. Never heard of the original GT40 having this sort of issue ... infact I read once about a guy running at over 200mph (on the road ... ? his sanity) for over 5 minutes, and it never missed a beat. Thus even the McLaren F1 does not match a 60's Ford design ... funny how we have not advanced at all now that we are NOT designing racing cars anymore just flashy road cars that struggle to back up their supposed performance. Yep I am aware that the McLaren F1 won Le Mans ... but I am sure you all know that they made a huge revision to the F1 to reduce weight and make it more suitable for the track ... thus even the McLaren F1 was not the race car for the road that they make out. If you read David Brabham's comments on the F1 he is critical of the inboard suspension, and indicates that the Panos does it much better! Again you cannot make a serious race car for the road, just a confused compromise, that fails in both areas. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 571 Registered: 6-2002
| Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 2:06 pm: | |
John Miles - my point exactly. It is not performance that is the arbiter of choice, but it is the non-quantifiable - beauty, craftsmanship, engineering, heritage, and rareness. Performance, by itself, would not lead to the purchase of any Ferrari with the exception of the Enzo, which stands without equal. (My choice of microseconds was a ben trovato, for illustrative purposes only). Jim S. |
John_Miles (John_miles)
Junior Member Username: John_miles
Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2001
| Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 12:16 pm: | |
Where do these "5-13 microseconds per week" accuracy figures come from? These figures are ridiculous. They would require a timebase good to approximately one part in 1E-11. You need a rubidium maser to achieve that, or a GPS-disciplined clock. The point being, there's not that much difference between the timekeeping accuracy of a Swatch and a Patek. These watches, like the cars being bench-raced in this thread, are chosen for other reasons entirely. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 570 Registered: 6-2002
| Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 9:51 am: | |
James G. and Jason - "...The watch analogy doesn't work...Patek don't sell their watches based on timekeeping accuracy, but on handcrafted excellance." Let's examine the utility and "value" of a Mont Blanc pen and a Bic. A Monet and a photograph. Perhaps I am stretching, but in my opinion, most purchase a Ferrari because it is not "mass produced" and it is as much a piece of art as a car. An 8-cylinder Chevy Corvette will outperform most F-cars for far less money, as will a Bic or a Casio. No, I justify my F-car purchases on whether or not I am borrowing them from my children. These are items I will leave in my Will, from generation to generation. Somehow, the Suburban isn't mentioned along side the Pateks and the F-cars. Jim S. |
David McGee (Damcgee)
New member Username: Damcgee
Post Number: 45 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 7:56 am: | |
Just to clear up the McLaren thing. The numbers quoted (Mclaren by R&t : 0-60 in 3.4 and 1/4 in 11.4@ 125mph) are of an "americanized" Euro vehicle. It was faster from the factory, as some of the other figures posted suggest.
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James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1479 Registered: 10-2002
| Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 6:07 am: | |
James S IMHO and in Mr. Ferrari's on the track it is/was about #'s. First OA. Taek These are all great cars but there is no excuse for their shortcomings. Lambo has had unconfortable pedals, canted footboxes, and no place to rest your left foot for years. Try using the loud pedal in an SV Muria for more than 20 minutes without having your leg cramp up. For that matter try fitting the the owners manual into the glove box of my Maser. It won't. These shortcomings are part of these cars. As I get older I wish they weren't. Pete Painting is coming along but prep is taking a long time as were not going to use filler. Here's a photo of the frame being prepared for the glueing and riviting of the first panels. Andrew It's still pissing rain! If it clears I'm heading over to see your Dad's Bora. (BTW a very usable Supercar) Best Jim  |
Fayyaz Vellani (Fvellani)
Junior Member Username: Fvellani
Post Number: 68 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 3:23 am: | |
McLaren F1 (from some British mag) 0-60: 3.175 0-100: 6.3 1/4 mile: 11.1 @ 138 mph |
Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser
Post Number: 383 Registered: 3-2001
| Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 1:05 am: | |
PSK, I totally agree with you, it's all about the numbers (aka performance).... that's how Ferrari positioned the car in the marketplace. After all if it's not about performance, what's left...wind up windows, carbon fibre & a bumpy ride..... James...The watch analogy doesn't work...Patek don't sell their watches based on timekeeping accuracy, but on handcrafted excellance |
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 1043 Registered: 10-2001
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 9:14 pm: | |
Robert , yes the Enzo will be there tomorrow as well. |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 670 Registered: 11-2002
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 8:03 pm: | |
Stop bashing the Murcielago please. It's a good car. The Gallardo does seem like an interesting car too. Looking forward to how it'll perform and how it'll be received. Cheers |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 568 Registered: 6-2002
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 7:43 pm: | |
Paul - to extend this metaphor - I would NEVER let a watchmaker touch my complicated Patek 3970 to improve its accuracy. It runs fine (much more accurate than 1 minute per week). Nor would I let a Ferrari mechanic touch my car to fix a compromise in compression. "If it ain't broken,..." well you know the rest. Jim S. |
Robert McNair (Rrm)
Member Username: Rrm
Post Number: 414 Registered: 5-2002
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 7:09 pm: | |
Andrew M is your Dad bring the Enzo to the Concours on Sunday as well? |
Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola
Post Number: 59 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 7:06 pm: | |
James, Touche. BTW, Pateks can be adjusted for accuracy. Paul |
Erik (Teenferrarifan)
Junior Member Username: Teenferrarifan
Post Number: 137 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 6:57 pm: | |
Allan it would be easier to push the lambo then to actually drive it True? Also, why would you ever bash or insult a car company that you actually bought a car from? True car guys/people(whatever is correct) appreciate all cars for what they are. Erik |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 566 Registered: 6-2002
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 6:51 pm: | |
James and others - -------------------------------------------------- Casio watch - accurate to within 5 microseconds per week. Swatch - accurate to within 13 microseconds per week. Timex quartz - accurate to within 12 microseconds per week. Patek Philippe - accurate to within 1 minute per week. I guess you would rather have the Casio. Jim S. |
allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo
Post Number: 575 Registered: 6-2002
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 6:17 pm: | |
Lol, Id rather push a Murcielago than drive a Ferrari. |
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 1042 Registered: 10-2001
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 5:19 pm: | |
James , congrats for the Price ! I hope to see some pics of you Duesey ! He'll be there tomorrow with the Bora , will you be there as well ? |
PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk
Post Number: 477 Registered: 11-2002
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 4:24 pm: | |
quote:I really don't get this... why do we (me included) nitpick over a second here or a second there. Is anyone in the market who is drooling over a Enzo going to change his mind cause some mag said it won't get to 100 under 8 seconds???
Absolutely, as there is no other reason to buy one of these cars, except to 'have one over' the rest of us ... which ofcourse is temporarily as someone will eventually improve. Simply pathetic, and now Ferrari are playing the stupid supercar game with the designed for nothing but magazine articles Enzo. This sort of performance only has real racing as its goal, not small penis insecure road racers, or rich b**tards with the same problem. Again what is so cool about a huge inefficient 6 litre car being able to accelerate fast and top the 200 mph ... when a 550 gets close and in comfort and practicality. As a pure design exercise, these cars ALL suck, and just prove how superior (forever) the original Ford GT40 is. Over 200 RELIABLE mph in the 60s and a Le Mans winner and they do not need servicing every second ... and yep some have 7 litre engines, but the Mk1s only have the little Ford v8 and still kick butt. Game over Ford winnce figures that were all performed on some sort of race track ... and yet the manufacturers BS us that they are supposably road cars. Try getting those numbers out of any of those cars on a pot holed Sydney road , and if you us cornering performance like that on a public street ... well, lock that immature idiot up before he kills someone. The F360 is the top performing real road Ferrari, the Enzo is a RACE car with no series to race in ... because Ferrari have no balls anymore! Shame on the company. Pete ps: James you already own the three best and real supercars, I'm surprised that you are even interested in these sort of things ... especially as you know your way around a race track. Guess we all read these articles sometime ... even me (blush), but I would never own an Enzo or Lambo supercar ... but an original GT40, that is different. BTW How is the painting of the P4 going? |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1478 Registered: 10-2002
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 4:13 pm: | |
Andrew M Saw your dad today at The Greenwich Concourse. He had the Enzo there looked great. He said after the PPI on the Daytona Comp Coupe he's passing. BTW my Duesenberg won "Best American open Car 1931-35" I drove to the show and home in the rain. Didn't see to many other concours winners doing that. The Enzo in person as you know is very very impressive. Andrew R Hey as an american I'm proud that my 33 year old Ford MK-IV would still give All of these cars a good run at LeMans. The long tailed McLaren would beat me but I think I'd beat the street version. The Lambo that looks interesting is the baby. That's the one that's going to give the 360 a run as will the new GT40. But I agree with Car and Driver. "If the Enzo isn't the supercar you've been dreaming of then you're having the wrong dreams." Alan When you drive your Merci make sure to take along a pair of vice grips to grab the broken off shift lever. This seemed to work for Car and Driver. Best Jim |
Nicholai Hel (Nicholai_hel)
New member Username: Nicholai_hel
Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2003
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 3:34 pm: | |
I really don't get this... why do we (me included) nitpick over a second here or a second there. Is anyone in the market who is drooling over a Enzo going to change his mind cause some mag said it won't get to 100 under 8 seconds??? Or if my heart is set on a Lambo am I going to change my mind cause a shifter fell off of one?? I know of a few Porsches that had to have engines replaced, but does that tarnish my wanting one... heck no. Take the Mclaren... am I going to break my neck clamboring over those darn outside seats, just because it was the worlds fastest car?? |
Andrew Rixon (Andyrixon)
New member Username: Andyrixon
Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 12:10 pm: | |
Figures aren't always representative of a car's true performance. The McLaren F1 is still regarded as one if not the best drivers car ever produced. The new Mclaren-Mercedes SLR may take that title though... Also, the statistics are dubious in many Enzo cases. Autocar tested the Enzo and couldn't get Ferrari's quoted times... long way off in fact. Also... the Mclaren is gorgeous... the Enzo is less so. Don't get me wrong. I'm a Ferrari-addict but respect is due to the boys from Mclaren for building a car that is still a strong contender 10+ years after it was released. Kind Regards all, Andy |
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 1037 Registered: 10-2001
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 12:01 pm: | |
Enzo did 3.3 @ 60 and 6.6 @ 100 in the last R&T. 1/4 in 11.1 @ 133.mph 60-0 in 109 ft 80-0 in 188 ft 1.01 G Mclaren by R&t : 0-60 in 3.4 and 1/4 in 11.4@ 125mph |
Andrew Rixon (Andyrixon)
New member Username: Andyrixon
Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 9:16 am: | |
As a patriotic Brit, its kinda cool that these supercars (Jag XJ220 and esp the Mclaren F1) from England are still kicking butt nearly a decade later. hehe |
Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member Username: Jaguarxj6
Post Number: 551 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 4:11 am: | |
'93 XJ220 0-60 3.6 0-100 8.0 1/4 11.7@125mph 200lbs/torque at tickover. Now thats cool! |
Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola
Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 3:52 am: | |
Allan, the only way an Enzo would take 8.0 seconds to get to 100mph is if it were towing a stranded Murcielago with a broken shifter. |
Tino (Bboxer)
Member Username: Bboxer
Post Number: 288 Registered: 8-2001
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 12:49 am: | |
Guys, these are Sports Cars, they do go around corners ! How fast will they go around the same road course with the same driver, that's the ultimate test, no ? BTW, the head of Lambo said in this week's Automotive News that the Murci was a full second per lap faster at Imola than the Gallardo. |
allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo
Post Number: 572 Registered: 6-2002
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 12:38 am: | |
Oh and the Mclaren is faster than a Enzo. Euro magazine just tested one at 8.0 seconds flat to 100mph, Mclaren did 6.2, and a Murci ran 8.2. |
allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo
Post Number: 571 Registered: 6-2002
| Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 12:36 am: | |
Car and Driver just ripped off a Euro magazines roadtest articles. No testing on their own. No doubt a Enzo would be faster than all the others, but the only way a Murci will run a 12.6@ 116 is if you started out in third. Est. performance is alittle absurd also. The Gallardo will not be faster than the Murcielago, that would be the same as a 360 beating a 575M, it will never happen. And a S600 is not faster than a 575 or Murcielago. |
Chris Horner (Cmhorner17)
Junior Member Username: Cmhorner17
Post Number: 161 Registered: 4-2002
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 11:50 pm: | |
Anyone have the numbers for the McLaren F1? How do the Enzos numbers compare? I know numbers aren't everything, but it's fun to compare anyway  |
rob ferretti (Robiferretti)
Junior Member Username: Robiferretti
Post Number: 238 Registered: 4-2002
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 10:12 pm: | |
you guys suck, I just went to Barnes and Noble, (approx 12 min away) to get the magazine, but it doesn't appear to be out yet... your such a tease LOL got the R&T instead with the s7 on the cover |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 664 Registered: 11-2002
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 9:05 pm: | |
Maybe the times were off because the shifter fell off! What kind of ham fisted driving were they doing to rip off a shifter? Cheers |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 662 Registered: 11-2002
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 9:00 pm: | |
The Gallardo is quicker than the Murcielago on the 1/4? Wow! David, I think I agree with you. I could've sworn the Murcielago was faster than the 575. Definitely feels plenty fast. Although I have no basis for comparison since I have never driven the others. James, you said it! Bugatti!! Cheers |
DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed
Post Number: 4389 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 8:20 pm: | |
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James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1477 Registered: 10-2002
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 8:17 pm: | |
Enzo 0-60 3.3 0-100 6.6 1/4 11.2@136 S7 3.3 7.6 11.6 @126 Murci 3.8 9.5 12.6@116 New GT40 3.5 8.6 11.8@120 est. Pagani 3.7 est. S600 4.3 9.7 12.5@115 Gallardo 3.9 8.2 12.2@122 est. Go figure...
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David McGee (Damcgee)
New member Username: Damcgee
Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 8:02 pm: | |
I'm curious about the Murcielago acceleration numbers. I can't remember for certain if I have seen faster numbers, but I think I remember the Lambo being considerably faster than the 575M. I wonder if Car and Driver did the full "6000 RPM clutch drop" that is apparently necessary to get the tires spinning for a good acceleration time? By the way, am I the only one going absolutely NUTS over the new M-B S600???? This this is a 5000 lb sedan that is essentially a couch on wheels, yet is running mid 12's?!?!?! And from what I've read, it is doing it with plenty of composure, and the brakes are just a bit behind the Enzo's. Heck, this thing is faster than the 575M, Murcielago, you name it. Why buy a Lambo... just buy the S600, it's faster and you can carry 4-5 people! |
DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed
Post Number: 4382 Registered: 8-2002
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 7:38 pm: | |
Months ago, someone mentioned that they knew of a Lamborghini whose shifter just came right off; said this wasn't the first time, either... i can understand high maintenance costs for exotic sports cars, but a delinquent shifter would just plain piss me off... Every time i see something regarding the Enzo, it's good news. Is it possible (or healthy in any way) to fall in love with a machine...? With 1,001 horsepower and a top speed said to be over 250, will anything beat the Bugatti...? Also, why is it the one to beat...? Lastly, after seeing, in person, an original GT40 the "Ford GT" just doesn't do it for me... |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1474 Registered: 10-2002
| Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 7:32 pm: | |
The new Car and Driver is very interesting. The Enzo is VERY fast. You have to use $60 per quart oil or you lose the warrantee. Brake pads are $6,000 rotors $24,000, motor $200,000. Merci shifter fell off. Same in 1/4 mile as 575 much slower than S7 and Enzo. Cramped footwell. There's a lot more I found interesting. New Ford GT seems a value as does baby Lambo. Buggatti will be the one to beat. |