| Author | Message | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 53 Registered: 5-2003 |
Muira's were even panned by Mr. Wallace himself. He felt that the design was rushed and admits to only the SV being really an almost sorted car. The Daytona was a complete machine from the start and has Lemans history to prove it's stability.. any questions? We can call Paul N. and ask him. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 608 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ill take a Muira anyday. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2611 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Miura was a great beautiful car & the first mid engine supercar. It is also notoriously difficult to keep 1 running & good luck finding parts. I'd take a Daytona over it any day | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 269 Registered: 8-2002 |
engine and other info http://www.web-cars.com/miura/engine.html | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 303 Registered: 3-2002 |
Gil, That speaks volumes. It looks amazing! Sounds like you and your wife prefer driving these beauties than Q-tipping them to death. Bravo. Look forward to seeing you at a future gathering. One thought; bring your wife and BOTH cars ; ) Regards. ps: I award your Miura the FChat Platinum! | ||
| Gil Lucero (Exotic_car_guy)
New member Username: Exotic_car_guy Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2003 |
Stephen, Our car is not a 100point car and didn't take any awards. However, it was clearly one of the people's favorite as it consistently drew more people that the surrounding garage queens. Gil  | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 265 Registered: 8-2002 |
The Daytona is a traditional Ferrari 12cyl front engine while the Muira at the time was a radical design for a street car. The Miura is probably my favorite Lambo a pure clean beautiful design before they went for the Darth Vader look of the Countach with side windows that open up 2". Interesting info at Al Bertonis website that all of the early Muiras had bent frames and other issues, but I am sure by now most have been sorted out. | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 301 Registered: 3-2002 |
A few of the guys headed out to the concours. Most of us headed for dryer ground; it was a wet drive to HMB that weekend. How did your Miura do? I'm guessing you came home with the Platinum ; ) Regards ps: We'd love for you to show us the Miura in person sometime! | ||
| Gil Lucero (Exotic_car_guy)
New member Username: Exotic_car_guy Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2003 |
Thanks for the complement. Yes, I've been wanting to go to the last several SF Bay Area FChat drives, however, the timing has always been in conflict with other things (On the last breakfast I was showing our Miura at the Hillsborough Concours). Looks like the next one coming up later this month is when we'll be in Italy. Hope to catch up with you guys soon. Gil | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 299 Registered: 3-2002 |
Gil, You have a stunning Muira and GTS! You should try and join us for our next bay area fchat drive. Regards. | ||
| Gil Lucero (Exotic_car_guy)
New member Username: Exotic_car_guy Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2003 |
I find it curious to read the responses on many Ferrari vs Lamborghini threads. Owning one of each, I personally feel that both companies have produced some very beautiful and high performance machines. I think the significant models of both marques deserve respect. It is also clear that Ferrari and Lamborghini, the men, had very different motivations. Enzo was mostly driven by racing, and he also was conservative in many ways. It took all lot of people pushing Enzo before he finally gave in to the mid-engine layout for race cars. And it took even longer before he considered it for the road cars. Ferrari had the technology and capability, but everything was done on Enzo's time table. The Daytona and the Miura were certainly contemporary competitors. They are both great cars and similarly matched. While I think the Daytona has better road manners, I personally think the Miura stirs the emotions more. I bought my Miura because I have lusted after this car since it was introduced in the 60's. I think Ferruccio deserves credit for empowering a few 25ish year old guys, and these guys created automotive history (Dallara, Wallace, Stanzani, Gandini{with Bertone}). Ferruccio was more willing to take chances. The chassis and engine layout broke new ground for a road car and the exterior design is timeless in my book. People read a lot of stories about the problems with Miura, but my experience is very satisfactory. The only things I've had to address are items that one would have to deal with any 35 year old car. The sound of that glorious Lamborghini V-12 (designed by Bizzarrini) sitting right behind your ears is awesome as you rev up through the gears. To me it approaches the beauty of the Ferrari P4 with some of the prototype race car feel, but still has road car manners (as Ferruccio intended). Nothing will ever match the racing heritage of Ferrari, but the Miura will always have an important piece of automotive history. In my garage, both Ferrari and Lamborghini live peacefully together like any good Italian cousins. Gil  | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
Junior Member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 235 Registered: 1-2002 |
When I was young (in the seventies!) I was a huge fan of Lamborghini. Obsessed is the word. And therefor, of course, totally against Ferrari. Finally I did end up buying Ferraris and not Lamborghinis. The main reason is that at 6'2'' I do not fit in the Espada and barely in a Miura. I'm partial to the older cars and find the newer Lamborghinis too gaudy. It stopped for me at the LP 400 periscope. The other consideration was maintenance and availability of parts. Since I live in Manhattan, I lack a driveway or a place even to wash my car, let alone some place to do some things yourself (not that I have time for that, but it all figured in the equation). So, I ended up with a Daytona. I do fit, have a choice of three dealers for maintenance, choose silver, so that you cannot see how dirty it is. Even though Lamborghini will always have a special place in my hart, I'm staying with Ferrari. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 864 Registered: 11-2002 |
Oh, come on. Don't take it so bad. It's just another way of asking how you managed to get such a good deal. Remember, 18 years ago the classic car market was on fire. Very bloated prices across the board. I don't think he's out of line. And fact does still remain that a top of the line Honda Accord wasn't selling for anywhere near $35k (as Wayne mentioned). I think they barely reach there now...but I don't know for sure. Cheers | ||
| Louis Goldstein (Lgoldstein)
New member Username: Lgoldstein Post Number: 43 Registered: 8-2002 |
Now you guys have gone and pissed the poor guy off. He was only trying to share! John, come back! Don't go! | ||
| John B (John_b)
New member Username: John_b Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2003 |
It was in '85 (actually 18 years ago). I Bought it for $35,000 from Joe Marmora, a dealer in Lamborghinis in NJ. The salesman was Adam. It was actually at the NY auto show that year, that's where I first saw it, I bought it the next week. I recall that it was a little more than a new top of the line Honda. They also had a Daytona coupe for $55,000. Correct, some traded at auctions close to 300,000 later. One other thing, I dont appreciate this kind of crap. I was just trying to share some of my experiences with the car someone was asking about. I think I'll take a vacation from this board. | ||
| Tyson Hall (Trhall)
New member Username: Trhall Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2003 |
"I had a Miura 17 years ago..." "I bought my Miura for $35,000 which was about the price of the top of the line Honda accord at the time." Here are 2 auction reports from 17 years ago for the Miura. Looks like you got an incredible deal!! Lamborghini - Miura - 1968 High Bid/Sold Price: $211,363 Vehicle ID #: 3583 Sale Status: Sold SCM Number: 13577 Sale Date: 2/12/1986 Lamborghini - Miura P400S - 1969 High Bid/Sold Price: $288,299 Vehicle ID #: 3402 Sale Status: Sold SCM Number: 188 Sale Date: 2/6/1986 | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Intermediate Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 1803 Registered: 8-2002 |
"I had a Miura 17 years ago..." "I bought my Miura for $35,000 which was about the price of the top of the line Honda accord at the time." Not to be picky but, in 1986, the top-of-the-line Accord was around $12K. | ||
| John B (John_b)
New member Username: John_b Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2003 |
I had a Miura 17 years ago, P400 S. It was tough to live with but even tougher to live without. It was a very sensual car, great sounds, very physical to drive, very responsive. Negatives - it had crumby brakes and was fairly unreliable. I just got a 360 F1 coupe last week and it reminds me a lot of the feeling of the Miura without the negatives. I bought my Miura for $35,000 which was about the price of the top of the line Honda accord at the time. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 965 Registered: 10-2001 |
Muira's are awful cars stock, with an oil pickup problem, very, very loud motor by your ear, and questionable build quality even compared to Ferrari. Yet the car is my all time #1 choice based on the very subjective reason that as a kid I had a Matchbox car of it and it was my favorite. That same mystique I feel for the Muira is what draws people to Ferraris, Lotus, Lamborghinis and *gasp* 4x4 trucks. Whatever. Muiras were $20k not long ago (well, longer than I care to admit) and now $80k will get you a car with issues, if you can find one. I wish had the $100k plus to get a nice restored and enhanced example. I'm sure the Daytona is a better car but that's not why people buy these kinds of toys. Ah, to be rich...must be nice! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1537 Registered: 10-2002 |
Terry I've always felt the Daytona's greatest racing victory was the under 33 hour Cannonball that Dan Gurney and Brack Yates drove. As Dan said "At no time did we exceed 170." BTW Bob Wallace and Alberto Pedretti are the ones who rebuilt my P4 motor. Best Jim | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 571 Registered: 4-2002 |
The Muira, up to the SV models, had the engine and transmission casings sharing the same sump and oil supply. This created lots of problems. I remember reading an interview on the Muira with Bob Wallace talking about how some of the engineers knew that was a bad idea, but it went forward anyhow because at the time they did not have the resources to change it. The Jota.... what an incredible machine. THAT is a Lambo I want to drive! Ferrari did the 365P California prototype in mid engine. They also were producing the 246GT Dino at the same time as the Daytona, so they were not really behind in mid engine production. Ferrari viewed the flagship model as an ultra fast GT car and felt a front engine design filled that role better. If your getting in the car to travel at high speed for 5 hours straight, the Daytona will allow you to arrive in comfort and style. The Muira will let you blow the minds of everyone who sees you arrive, and then you can go take a shower and get a massage to recover! | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 856 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lawrence, Engine fires are prone in a good amount of vintage cars. Lamborghini is no exception. Neither is Ferrari. Read Nika's Mr. Bumblebee thread. That said, there has been an ongoing trend of Ferraris having "superior" fit and finish. As for reliability I've heard wonders about Lamborghini engines. Bulletproof, and tank are terms that commonly come up when describing them. Don't know about the other mechanical components though. Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 855 Registered: 11-2002 |
See the part that I don't get about the mid engine stuff is that Ferrari had a midengine waaay before. Granted, nearly unattainable, but it was there. Probably my favorite Ferrari of all time, the 250 LM and the bigger engined 275 LM. Did Ferrari abandon this engine configuration for a reason? Why did he return to it after the Miura's release then? Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 854 Registered: 11-2002 |
Terry, good points and it's good to hear from someone with extensive wheel time in both! I think the Competition Daytona would be more comparable with the Miura Jotas (talk about a rare bird; 3 made, 1 surviving), not so much the SVs. I was told by a very reliable source that Lamborghini has nevertheless authorized the reproduction of 4 or 5 additional Jotas. They are going to be LP400 Miuras that are "upgraded" to Jota specs with the factory's blessing. It'll be interesting how the market reacts to these. Almost like Shelby re-releasing the CSX Cobras, but not nearly in the volume Shelby is doing it. Also, Shelby's Cobras will be built from scratch using Kirkham (kit car manufacturer) shells manufactured in Poland, if I'm not mistaken. The Miura Jota run is going to be from period cars with extras so to speak. Cheers | ||
| Lawrence Yee (Ferrariguy)
Junior Member Username: Ferrariguy Post Number: 229 Registered: 8-2002 |
I also read somewhere that the Muiras had the potential to have engine fires which if true points to the build quality that Terry was saying. Having said that I like both cars styling-wise. I think the Muira is one of the most beautiful designs of all time. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1203 Registered: 12-2001 |
According to everything i read after the fact, ferrari took •••• for not going mid-engine with the daytona, and when the boxer didn't meet its promise, initially, others continued to swear by the Daytona as the last of the great F cars well into the 70's and 80's. I don't think the Muira met its potential until the SV, and by then, it was history. The period reviews comparing the boxer and countach (and later, the testarossa and countach-man that car was around a long time) seemed to say the same thing we say today: the ferrari is more user friendly, better built (at least then) but not nearly as outrageous or singleminded of purpose as the Lambo. I thought both (the Muira and the Daytona) were conceived as full tilt continent crushing GTs. I thought the Countach, aside from its outrageous appearance, was meant to be more hardcore than the competition (which, i guess, also included Aston- M, Maserati and a few others). | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 567 Registered: 4-2002 |
I would not say they were built with totally different goals. Each was the flagship "supercar" of the brand during the same period. Lambo came out with a revolutionary design that turned the exotic car market on its ear. Ferrari came out with a more traditional supercar that offered better performance, more practicality and stunning if more traditional looks. They also raced them with good success. I have driven both. The Muira I have driven is a '67 P400 owned by an F-chatter and good friend Muiraguy. Its in really cherry condition and is a blast to drive. It makes INCREDIBLE noises! Having those webers sucking that volume of air right behind your ear with only a bit of plexiglass seperating you is awesome. Being able to see the engine is also way cool. The car is really stunning to look at. Its also something of a pain to get in and out of. No A/C or provisions for it. A disaster to try and work on, accessibility is VERY tough. Power is really good, lots of kick. Perhaps not as much torque as a Daytona, but mid range acceleration is similar. The Muira driving position for me (over 6") is somewhat cramped. The Daytona fits perfect. The Daytona shifts tons better. The Daytona also handles better. I would rate the Ferrari build quality higher though today when comparing two cars it would probably come down to quality of the restoration. I know Muiras had a horrible reputation for terrible build quality when new, but Im sure most owners have corrected lots of the problems. I believe the Daytona would win in a top speed showdown but lets face it, the top speed of both is far higher than anyone is realistically going to use. If your looking for a hyper exotic that offers lots of noise, power and looks and you dont care about ergonomics at all nor about racing heritage or handling, perhaps a Muira is best. If your really going to drive it alot, the Daytona. If someone is going to base the decision largly on looks though, then thats totally subjective. I like the Daytona much better. Its so sleek, sexy and fast looking in a brutal way. A Pinninfarina masterpiece, the best front engine V12 road car they ever did for Ferrari (IMHO of coarse). Then again the Muira is so low, wide and swoopy while still being very aggressive its a gorgeous car. I can appreciate why some prefer the Muiras looks over the Daytona. I also think a Muira SV would probably solve the performance gap for the Lambo. Then again a good SV is hard to come by and costs $$$. Perhaps it would compare with a Competition Daytona? | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 485 Registered: 10-2001 |
Does anyone have the web site for "Classic and Sportscar"? They had such a great Daytona vs. 512BB story.I want to look up the back issue. Again they blamed Ferrair's switch to mid engine on all the fame and press the Miura was getting when it first came out. Shocked the auto world to have a street car with mid engine. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 851 Registered: 11-2002 |
OK, Not meant as an inflamatory thread here. But in light of Gerald's post, I got to thinking. Are the Daytonas a good comparison car with the Miura? In turn, is the Murcielago a good comparison car with the 575M? Are all these comparisons misplaced because of their price brackets, or is it fair to bunch them because they are in the same price bracket, more or less. I don't suspect a Murcielago buyer to be a 575M buyer or vice versa unless they are shopping to buy both. Daytona's and Miura's being pretty much at the top of my list it's hard for me to see them in the same bracket. Not so much because one is better than the other, or cooler than the other. I just love them both because of different reasons and are therefore not really competition in my book. Daytonas are font engined, and Miuras are mid engined. I would suspect their handling characteristics are very different from each other. I've never really driven either (Daytona around the block) so I would not be able to judge or compare or even formulate an opinion performancewise. The differences of course, don't stop there either. Weren't these two cars built with two different goals in mind? Thoughts? Cheers |