| Author | Message | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
Junior Member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 161 Registered: 2-2002 |
Dear List, I have the original 308 Gt4 Ferrari tech upgrade bulletins if anyone is interested, I will scan them and send them to you as a pdf. My car was a March 75 car which was upgraded at the dealership per Ferrari then sold to the first owner. Many were painted also using the boxer paint scheme. Mine ended up Marone mettalic/black. Previous owner returned car to original red, actually a red he had on a Maserati Mistral which he loved. Rob | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 105 Registered: 5-2003 |
No, I never owned one per se. But at the time the cars were new I was working at FAF Motorcars in Tucker, GA. So I got to drive quite a few, and became very familiar with them. A 308 GT4 was also the first Ferrari my wife ever drove. During that time several older V12 Ferraris passed through my hands, but she was always intimidated by them--both power and value. After I convinced her that if she could drive her straight-shift Mustang she could certainly hande the 308 GT4. The clutch, brake and gas pedals were all in the same location! | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 239 Registered: 11-2002 |
Gerald, Yep, as a matter of fact, if you look under the front of my car, you can see the remnants of the horizontal recess where the original dino badge was placed. In fact, if you look closely at the top of the car, you can see where the recess was filled and painted. I tried to take a photo of this, but you couldn't really see it from the photo. You really know your stuff about the GT4. Did you by chance own one at some time? Dom | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2003 |
One of the problems with the Dino or Ferrari nose badge on the front of the car was the badge positioning. On the original Dino 308 GT4 there was a horizontally oriented rectangular recess in the bodywork for the badge. Ferrari's specifications for updating 308 GT4s to Ferrari badging called for placing the vertical Ferrari badge above the Dino badge, without any recess. When the later Dino 308 GT4s came along with factory-fitted Ferrari badges the Dino nose badge and its horizontal recess had been replaced by a Ferrari badge in a vertical recess. Unfortunately this meant that to fully upgrade an early 308 GT4 to later factory-style badging involved bodywork to the nose panel, a cost few owners were willing to pay. So many of the later upgraders, if they didn't follow the factory recommendation and keep both badges, merely filled in the horizontal recess with bondo and stuck the Ferrari badge over it flush with the bodywork and not recessed. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2858 Registered: 12-2000 |
To add more to this thread (although point proven long before), since the nose on my car is damaged now and will need bodywork and paint, I pondered whether to keep the Ferrari badge, or get a Dino one from FofUK... ...Ferrari stays! Because it was there from the beginning! (Although, I may still get a Dino badge to keep as a souvenir. It would look really cool on my toolbox...). | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 235 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ah, but define history  The history of my car is that the dealership changed the emblems, along with a bunch of other stuff described in the service bulletin link I posted earlier. I would gladly change the emblems back to Dino, but I don't think it is worth spending ~$1000 to retrofit emblems to a $20,000 car. Maybe when eveyone else realizes how great the GT4's are, and the cars start fetching 6 figure prices, I will go ahead and retrofit the dino badges. In the meanwhile, I'll just continue enjoying her. Dom | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4815 Registered: 5-2001 |
Gerald is right, the Dino wasnamed most of its life the Dino but late into the GT4 production they renamed them Ferrari. It was in 1977 if my memory serves me right. The 01552 I have was still a Dino but had already a horse, but I can not tell you if that was from aftermarket or original. The nose badge is still a Dino, which BTW looks cool. As for re-badging, I would be with Frank on this. A Dino is a Dino, for historical value leave them that way. Thoise that know will know what it is, those that don't won't know the difference if you put Lamborghini on the car. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 95 Registered: 5-2003 |
Frank, the "rest of the world" did not keep the Dino badging! Late 308 GT4s had Ferrari badging from the factory--Dino badge on nose was replaced with Ferrari badge, the center caps on the wheels got the Cavallino instead of the Dino script as did the horn button, etc.--no matter the destination market. Only the Dino 308 GT4 script on the rear deck lid remained of the original Dino badging. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2473 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dom, I do think that even dealer Ferrari badging should be changed back to Dino badging as it left the factory. That service bulletin was only for USA cars as a marketing ploy to try to sell the cars that were just sitting on showroom floors. I believe that the rest of the world kept the Dino badging. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 234 Registered: 11-2002 |
Oh, and here is the specific update I was talking about:  | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 233 Registered: 11-2002 |
Gerald, Nice info!! Tom: As much as Frank likes to bust our balls, I think he really does like these cars. He just likes to call them Dino's. And that's fine, because as you can see from Gerald's posts, they were both Dino's and Ferrari's. Frank: But, what about a car that's been rebadged from Dino to Ferrari by the dealer, as per Ferrari's service bulletin (http://members.tripod.com/~ferrari308gt4/updates.html)? Do you think those should be bought back to Dino state? Dom | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2471 Registered: 9-2001 |
Tom, where have you seen me say that a V8 owner is not "good enough" to be included in the hobby ? I have had two Italian V8s myself, a 328GTS and a 348 Spider ! I loved them both. I just feel that a Dino 308GT4 owner should leave the Dino badging along and be proud to own a Dino. And to ask you the same question, if it says Dino on the badging why would you call it anything else ? My M5 says BMW on its badging, should I call it a Mercedes because they're both made in Germany ? Better yet, a Trans Am says Pontiac on its badging, should I call it a Chevrolet because both are made by GMC ? It seems to me that it is YOU that don't like Dinos and prefer that they be called a Ferrari even though Enzo chose to name them Dino after his beloved son. If I bought a Dino that had had its badges changed to Ferrari, I would change them back to Dino badges as soon as I could locate all the proper badges. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 92 Registered: 5-2003 |
More FWIW Dino 308 GT4 identification details  FMV safety conformity label that identifies the car as having been manufactured by Ferrari (DUH!). Ferrari only has one factory, in Maranello, and the Dino 308 GT4s were manufactured there.  FMV safety conformity label on the glovebox door which identifies the car as a DINO 308 GT4  Chassis plate in engine compartment that identifies the car as a DINO F 106 AL (308GT4). The various FMV (Federal Motor Vehicle) safety labels apply to USA spec cars. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 91 Registered: 5-2003 |
FWIW some Dino 308 GT4 identification data.  The engine is identified as a FERRARI  The chassis is identified as a DINO  The FMV saftey standard label on the steering column identifies it as a DINO 308 GT4 | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 90 Registered: 5-2003 |
Frank asked: "Were the serial numbers of the Dinos of the 1950s and 1960s also even number? How about the Fiat Dino?" The sports/racing Dinos of the 1950s and 1960s (i.e. cars like the 206S, 296S, 246S etc.) were numbered as part of the even-number sports/racing car series (0740, 0746, 0778 etc.) mixed in among the Testa Rossas and other sports/racing Ferraris. The Formula One Dinos, like all F1 Ferraris prior to 1970 were numbered within their series and carried both odd and even numbers. For example, the F1 cars at the 1959 French GP carried chassis numbers 0002, 0003, 0004, 0007 and 0011. The separate Dino numbering system began with the 206S series of mid-engine cars in 1966 which were numbered 002, 004, 006 etc. through 032. The production Dino numbering system began in 1967 with Dino 206 GT S/N 00102 and continued through Dino 308 GT4 S/N 15604. Fiat Dinos were numbered by Fiat, had chassis numbers with many more digits, used both odd & even numbers, and had a prefix to distinguish between spyder and coupe as well as 2 and 2.4 liter versions. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 429 Registered: 9-2002 |
Frank..It just appears to me that anybody in your eyes who drives a V8 Ferrari, is not good enough to be inclueded in the hobby. For you they have to be 12cylinder cars, why? Ferrari has built 4,6,8,12 cylinder cars for racing purposes,they are Ferrari's no matter what the cylinder count is. I beleive that the Dino cars were built in the same factory as the Ferrari's and used Ferrari engines. How can you say that they are not Ferrari's just because of the badging on the nose? This attitude of "I'm better that you because I have a v12 " has got to stop. There are many people who can afford a 12 but they prefer the 8's because of there smaller size and the better handeling and the pure race car feel of the car and engine. Ferrari's F1 cars use v10's I guess there not Ferrari's, the must be Dino's. Hows the 512 anyway? | ||
| steve kotler (Akydakyx)
New member Username: Akydakyx Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2002 |
solly, i gotta go with rich on this one. fiat built the 2.0 and 2.4 dino engines which were then sent to ferrari plant or stayed with fiat depending on when and what car car built. also everything i read (mike morris book) says that the version of this engine homologated for formula 2(which is why fiat got involved in the first place)was hugely UNsuccessful and the campaign was abandoned after two years. the changes fiat made to the engine design were solely for durability in a street car. a race engine only has to last a few hours and can be rebuilt before the next race, not to mention the spares you have. i don't think ferrari, dino, or fiat customers would stand for anything that wasn't semi reliable(standards of the day). | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2462 Registered: 9-2001 |
Tom, why are we somehow "stuck up" as you put it because we acknowledge that a 308GT4 is a Dino ? I love Dinos. I also acknowledge that a Chevy is a GM product . | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 428 Registered: 9-2002 |
I've seen and worked on numerous GT4's and all the ones I have seen have the words Ferrari on the chassis plate on the door jam. The car is a Ferrari..just admit it you stuck up guys you :o) | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 987 Registered: 10-2001 |
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1498 Registered: 4-2002 |
Uh, Frank, the various identifying plates that I mentioned are original to the car. This I know because of discussions with the original owner, and the documentation with the car. Changing the chassis serial # plate would be a very questionable practice anyway. Just the external cosmetic badging (and horn button) were changed. (They did a superb job on the nose badge, as you absolutely can't tell w/o looking under the nose to see the horizontal indentation.) | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2459 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dom, I do know a fellow with a 308GT4 that changed all the Ferrari badges back to Dino badges. He said that it wasn't cheap to do though. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 228 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Frank, I think we discussed this once before, but I believe the dealers installed the ferrari badges, when they did a bunch of the upgrades to the series 1 cars. Try searching the archives. I'm sure you are right though, that anything that wasn't converted by the dealers was eventually converted by owners. I wonder if there will be a point, eventually, where the owners start converting Ferrari badges to Dino badges. Sometimes I get tempted. But then, I see the prices that these things are going for on E-bay, and I say Forgedaboutit. Dom | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2447 Registered: 9-2001 |
Hans, a lot of badges and plates on Dinos were changed to Ferrari ones by their owners over the years. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1497 Registered: 4-2002 |
Oh, PS: The car in question is a 1975 Series 1, rebadged at the dealer. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1487 Registered: 4-2002 |
Sometimes I think even the "experts" get it wrong. The chassis plate on a 308GT4 doesn't say 'Dino' anywhere. Just 'Ferrari'. The emissions metal plate in the engine compartment says Ferrari only. The steering column says 'Dino'. The tire pressure plate in the glove box says 'Dino'. And, other than cosmetic badges on the outside of the car, that is the *total* extent of "official" badging. These are the FACTS, gentlemen. No amount of wishing will make the Ferrari designation disappear from the chassis plate. I'm not trying to be a snob or anything about this, as I actually wish my car had all the external 'Dino' badging that it was originally born with. The PO put 'shields' on the outside, and if I do any paint work, those will be the first thing to go. But it's amazing how much in denial all the so-called "experts" are, and will try to say that there is no Ferrari evidence on the cars at all. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 255 Registered: 10-2001 |
Regarding Fiat and Dinos: Steven, I've never heard anything about Ferrari doing the blocks while Fiat did the heads. Can you provide a source for this? The story as I understand it has all engine parts being made by using Fiats resources and after the racing engines having the design changed to be strong enough to last for road car mileage. Early Fiat Dinos were built and assembled by passing them back and forth between pininfarina or bertone and fiat factories. The 2.4 Fiat Dinos were assembled at Maranello in a new building alongside the "ferrari" Dinos. And somebody asked about serial numbers: fiat dino serial numbers follow the Fiat style. 135AS for 2.0 spyder, 135AC for 2.0 coupe, 135BC for 2.4 coupe and 135 BS for 2.4 spyder. These numbers are simply followed by the sequential production number, ranging from 26 (first 25 were reserved for various prototypes) to 1583 for the spyders and through 6068 for the coupes. There are 5 spyder numbers unaccounted for (#1372-77) I don't believe it is accurate to say that the 246 Dino had "compromises to make it amenable to Fiat". Yes, Fiat owned Ferrari by then and could do what they wanted with the cars but I suspect the typical Fiat road car engineers and accountants had little to do with the design and production of the Dino 246. (and judging by the build quality of especially the fiat dino 2.4 coupes, the typical econony-minded mass produced fiat staff stayed far away from that car as well: it's much closer to a ferrari level of quality than any other fiat). I suppose one could argue that the change to the iron block instead of the aluminum block was a typical Fiat type move though. | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 554 Registered: 2-2002 |
As promised, here's the picture of the discarded 308 GTB Studio Aerodinamica at the Ferrari factory. I was in error. These pictures were taken by another respected Ferrari historian, Hilary A. Raab, Jr.  Barry | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 490 Registered: 6-2001 |
Same old Dino/Ferrari debate. 1) The door plate on my dino 246 GTS says "Ferrari", with the serial # under it, just like all other Ferraris. 2) The engine was designed by Vittorio Jano, acknowledged as Ferari's finest engine designer. 3) The lower unit was built by Ferrari, the upper unit by Fiat to Jano's specifications. The only reason Fiat had to build them was because Enzo wanted to race them and needed to homologate them, and couldn't build 500 engines in his shop in such a short time. 4) The racing Dinos were hugely successful, and Enzo would hardly have equipped them with an engine he didn't consider a "Ferrari". So the only contribution fiat made was to build the upper units, and build 500 of them quickly. As far as being a "Ferrari", i find the dino encompasses more Ferrari attributes (style, speed, exotic looks) than say a mondial, which is a "real" Ferrari. I think i'll keep my dino | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 550 Registered: 2-2002 |
Dom, Wayne posted that photograph for me last year. My reference books did not have the photograph. One photo I do have is the discarded 308 GTB Studio Aerodinamica. I think Gerald Roush took that picture too at the same "junk pile" at the factory. I'll look for it at home and post it tomorrow.  They didn't have to discard it. I would have gladly taken it. Barry | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 549 Registered: 2-2002 |
Frank, Yes, I was referring to the recess. Gerald Roush might have taken this picture years ago. I've seen his photographs taken at the factory in many of my Ferrari books. Barry | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 223 Registered: 11-2002 |
Cool photo Barry. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2427 Registered: 9-2001 |
Barry, are you referring to the Dino size/shape badge recess on the front ? It does appear to have the horizonal shape of a Dino badge rather than the vertical shape of a Ferrari badge. | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 548 Registered: 2-2002 |
Just an interesting historical point here. This is a picture of a discarded wooden buck for the 308 GTB at the factory. Ferrari might have planned to badge the 308 GTB as a Dino.  | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 222 Registered: 11-2002 |
Interestingly, if you look at the heritage certificate thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/266641.html?1055307865 I posted photos of my chassis and engine number. The chassis number is preceeded by Dino. But, the engine number clearly has Ferrari on it. Dino or Ferrari, it's one great car. Dom President, 308 GT4 Admiration Society | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 980 Registered: 10-2001 |
Hey Robert, did you call the phone #? Maybe he still has it. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2421 Registered: 9-2001 |
Gerald, so were the serial numbers of the Dinos of the 1950s and 1960s also even number ? How about the Fiat Dino ? | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
Junior Member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 153 Registered: 2-2002 |
Gerald, Good to see you here, I have alot of respect for you and FML, your wife helped me find a copy of "Una Vita Per L'Automobile" for which I am eternally gratefull. On my 308 GT4 which was originally badged as a Dino but upgraded to Series II Ferrari specs at the Ferrari dealership before original sale on 11-21-75 (as per Ferrari Technical Revisions # 265/1 & 266 dated 01-07-75) came with a engine with the Ferrari name stamped on it and a Ferrari door jam indentification plate (see photo). That they are all Dino's is a undisputed but the fact that the Gt4 was also designed and built by Ferrari with a Ferrari engine is also true. After driving many other Ferrari's I am proud to say that it is my opinion that the GT4 although universally maligned is probably one of the best all around Ferrari's of all time, based on handling, engine response, seating position, visibility and engine accessability. The example I own is a treasure I will maintain and love until my role as a caretaker passes it on to its next loving owner. As someone correctly stated on another thread that Enzo looked on the road cars as a neccisary nuisance the fact that they are labeled Dino or Ferrari seems moot. They were (are) great cars that have not only aged gracefully but are a rolling tribute to the man we all revere. The fact that they are cheap is a bonus. Food for thought, I have a clipping out of the LA Times from around 1972 which read something like this: 1963 Ferrari GTO with spare engine, need space in garage. $10,000 OBO Rob   | ||
| Louis Goldstein (Lgoldstein)
New member Username: Lgoldstein Post Number: 45 Registered: 8-2002 |
Gerald: Methinks you've completely wiped out the very purpose behind Frank's existence! Ouchy. | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 87 Registered: 5-2003 |
Frank, when the 308 GTB was introduced there were journalists in various publications that referred to it as a Dino. But note that the Dino 308 GT4 chassis numbering system was a continuation of the Dino 246 system, i.e. even numbers, and the 308 GTB chassis were always numbered in the regular odd-numbered Ferrari system. Since the 308 GTB first appeared on the scene in 1975 (prototypes early in the year, production late in the year) it would appear that it had already been decided it would be a "Ferrari" and not a "Dino" even before it became obvious that the Dino-badged 308 GT4 was not going to be a hot-selling car. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Junior Member Username: Dom Post Number: 220 Registered: 11-2002 |
If the Dino name had sold on the earlier cars it probably would have remained Dino (in my opinion). Either way, the GT4 is a great car to own, wheter it is a dino or a ferrari. I'd also love to own a Dino 246, Fiat Dino Spider, and a Lancia Stratos. All great cars, with great engines. The name on the nosepiece is irrelevant. Dom | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 993 Registered: 11-2002 |
Also, There are some pretty kick ass racing cars out there from the Scuderia that are badged Dinos. Cheers | ||
| Jay Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1377 Registered: 10-2001 |
Yes Frank I think it would have...if Pininfarina had designed it. I think if the 308 GTB/S was badged a Dino, they would still be called that today, with the V12's and flat 12's carrying on the Ferrari name. Just my opinion, but who really cares? They ARE Ferraris either way you look at it. The fact that I have to buy Ferrari parts for it, proves it! LOL | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2416 Registered: 9-2001 |
Well stated Gerald. Do you think that if the 308GT4 would have originally sold well badged as a Dino, that that name would have carried on throughout the later V8 cars ? By the way, there are two "ps" in appellation . I'm smiling . | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 284 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks for the info Gerald Regards Jeff | ||
| Gerald L. Roush (Ferrmktltr)
Junior Member Username: Ferrmktltr Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2003 |
Jeff, from the day the model was introduced until the last one rolled out of the factory in Maranello ALL 308 GT4 carried on their rear deck lid the Dino 308 GT4 script. All carried a chassis plate that identified them as being a Dino 308 GT4. The steering column boss where the chassis number appeared carried the name Dino 308 GT4. Various other labels and plates on the car carried the name Dino 308 GT4. All owner's manuals and sales brochures for the model carried the name Dino 308 GT4. I have numerous factory documents pertaining to the model. In NONE of them is the car referred to as anything other than Dino 308 GT4. Yes, later version came with some of the Dino badges replaced by Ferrari badges. But Ferrari never changed the name! But I have never found the apellation "Dino" to be derogatory. Enzo named the series after his much beloved and deeply mourned son. And while the Dino 246 did indeed have some compromises in it to make it amenable to Fiat the lineage behind the V6 Dino is impressive and certainly a credit to the Ferrari name. |