| Author | Message | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 857 Registered: 4-2002 |
After thinking about this for a couple of days, here is my take: I think Ferrari needs a car in 4 different market segments: 1) 3 litre sports car, 2) 4 litre super car, 3) 5 litre exotic GT, 4) 6 litre unbelievable car The 3 litre car would have a 308 mid-engine architecture making modern HP (350 HP) and have a target weight of 2700 lbs; manual windows, locks, transmission; top kit suspension, chassis, and tires; at a taret price around $100K in todays dollars. Berlinettas and GTSs only. Think small and nimble. The 4 litre car would have a 410 mid-engine architecture making modern HP 480 HP and dual plane intake runners, and top kit headers. Target weight of 2800 pounds, power everything, top kit suspension, chassis, brakes, tires with a target price around $200K; Berlinettas, GTSs, and Spiders. Think LeMans contender in race trim. The 5 litre car would be a super GT like a 575. Berlinettas, GTSs, and Spiders/Barchettas, top kit everything, bring in Honda to do the electrical system; target price under $300K/250K. | ||
| L. (Testaroja)
Junior Member Username: Testaroja Post Number: 57 Registered: 5-2003 |
It sounds like I rather buy a Lamborghini Gallardo | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 686 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank, I personally would like to own a Ferrari one day. If after saving for half my life I decide to buy a new one in say 2010 (this would probably never happen, as I would rather buy an old 'classic' one, but I am trying to make a point), and I am faced with this list of potential vehicles: 1. Maserati, made by Ferrari but both names have great heritage, but in my opinion the brand has been weakened by the fact that they no longer have their own running gear ... thus just a badged Ferrari. To many that would be a good thing, to purists no. 2. New brand DINO, as the small Ferrari. But I want to be able to brag to my mates and finally reach my dream of owning a FERRARI, not a Dino. Yep, I know that it is made by Ferrari, but this car does not have the Ferrari badge ... thus I would not be interested. This is exactly the same problem that many, many Ferrari dealerships had with the 246 and GT4 ... hence the addition of the Ferrari badge by the dealers to the GT4. 3. Ferrari badged Ferrari ... er, I think I'll buy this one. Thus while I am 100% a driving enthusiast I still want the Ferrari badge, so your direction (and maybe Ferraris direction) is wrong. Take the Ferrari badge off the Enzo/575/360 and you would be lucky to sell them for half the price. Look at all the other supercar manufacturers who struggle to move, possibly superior cars out the door. The quality of the produced car is only 25% of the story, most buy cars based on the brand reputation. Look at the scaving articles about the Ferrari Mondial v8 when it came out ... some magazines even said that the Toyota Supra was a better drive ... but a Toyota is not a Ferrari. The most important thing Ferrari owns is their name, everything else is just metal or rubber!, and diluting Maserati is just as bad as sticking GM engines in an Alfa Romeo. No problems with Ferrari engineers designing the Maseratis BUT no Ferrari and Maserati should share motors ... it is just badge engineering and look how that killed the English car industry. Pete ps: Frank please remember that Enzo Ferrari could not give a flying f**k for his road cars, they were just money makers for his racing. So yep he may have made the great front engined v12 statement, but in the end if they had been diesel powered he probably would not have cared less ... as long as rich idiots (that is how he thought of buyers) were buying them so he had the budget for racing. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 685 Registered: 11-2002 |
An interesting side note to confirm Jim's comment about the current front engined v12s being hard to sell, the 456 is currently the SECOND worst selling car in England. Only 2 have moved last year (or when ever). The worst selling car BTW is the FIAT Barchetta .. thingy. No wonder FIAT is hurting. But it is funny seeing Ferraris having trouble moving out the door. Thus if you want a 456 you should be able to find a new one (probably) in England ... Strange to me as much better looking car than the 550/575 ... but I guess it does not go like one, and the 2+2 makes it appears less of a Ferrari to some. To me it would be great, as I could use it more, and that is what they are supposed to be about ... ie. driving. Pete | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2667 Registered: 9-2001 |
Todd, I'm an attorney, I have tough skin. By the way, have you driven a 575m. If not, do so. IMHO it is lightyears more car than the 360 for not a whole lot more money. Don't buy the 360 without driving a 575m first. You may change your order afterwards. And Rich, Fiat should just give Alfa to Ferrari. After all, if they don't GM will end up owning all of Fiat. | ||
| todd spencer (Todd)
New member Username: Todd Post Number: 20 Registered: 5-2003 |
Frank, did not mean to criticise you. I was only being somewhat sarcastic to illustrate a point. Todd. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 338 Registered: 10-2001 |
Well, at the moment, Alfa is part of Fiat's Auto Spa while Maserati is part of Ferrari Spa. But perhaps Ferrari could purchase Alfa from Fiat Auto. Considering the history, it makes at least as much sense as Ferrari and Maserati being under the same roof. | ||
| Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member Username: Lomotpk Post Number: 6 Registered: 5-2003 |
Frank, I do not disagree with the line-up concept. I think Dino is too weak/unknown of a brand to carry the sizable # of V8's that Ferrari V8 is moving at the moment. I think you're on the money with Alfa and Maser, but I think Dino is just too weak to carry off the 8/12 split. my 2 cents. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2665 Registered: 9-2001 |
Todd, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I do not like the looks of the 360, especially the front end treatment. But, not because it is a V8. I do like the looks of a 355, 348, 328, 308, and 246 though. So how am I a snob ? Am I suppose to like a car just because you do ? You don't have to dislike one because I do. Mark, my marketing concept would only work if Ferrari offered more that just the Dino. It would have to have the entire Alfa, Dino, Maserati and Ferrari brands to make the concept work. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 337 Registered: 10-2001 |
I've heard of cars that were reportedly destroyed in fires can turn out to have been saved just fine after all!! I guess there is a chance on this one as well! It sure would be nice to find it and put the V12 back in and have a snapshot of that period in time. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1990 Registered: 10-2002 |
Rich It's interesting to note that 0796's V12 wound up in a 330 GTO. It's amazing how tangled some of these webs are. In that case Ferrari made a V12 Dino destroyed it and used it's engine to make a 330GT0. If you come across 0796's chassis, let me know... | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2058 Registered: 6-2001 |
David: I sure hope that the "new" 360 is due out next year and that the front end has been improved. Art | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1381 Registered: 8-2001 |
In recent years, the bread-and-butter mid-engine V8 cars brought GT Championship titles back to Ferrari. I don't think they'll rebadge them to Dino anytime soon. Hmm...haven't we done this particular topic before? | ||
| todd spencer (Todd)
New member Username: Todd Post Number: 18 Registered: 5-2003 |
The 360 spider is one the most elegant and beautiful cars ever built by ferrari. To own this magnificient automobile is a humbling experience. Being critical or demeaning, Frank, only illuminates your condescending snobbery. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 336 Registered: 10-2001 |
I like the name Dino and its history and wouldn't mind owning a new one. But it seems Ferrari already considers Maserati to be their lower priced brand. But I'm not sure Maserati would be a good brand name for a 2seater in the US because there are too many Biturbo memories around, ha! If it was a totally stripped sports car to remind people of Maserati's racing history, that would work. But regulations don't allow road cars like that anymore. An $80k, lightweight 2 or 2.4 litre V6 engined "Dino" would be awesome. No turbo. AC optional. 6 speed gearbox, no FI. I'd want it to be more like the Lotus Elise in concept. Performance comeing from weight and handling and not displacement. 700kg should be the target design weight and if they keep it under 800kg (1760 lbs.), I'd be happy. The first Elises had only about 140hp but there is no reason Ferrari can't make a 2L with 260hp (screw emmissions regulations!). But just like the Elise, the US wouldn't allow that car in for us to buy anyway. Bummer. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 551 Registered: 10-2001 |
Frank- " my marketing thoughts/idea/recommendation were for the future" If you want Ferrari to take the bread & butter V8 mid engine cars, and rename them Dinos. Well my friend, you must be gunning to replace "New Coke" in our Business College case studies as the worst business marketing idea ever. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 335 Registered: 10-2001 |
From what I've read in Doug Nye's book, it seems the dino chasis they put the 12 into was 0796. The only race listings it appears in (as a V6) are Daytona and Le Mans in 1962 (where it was driven by the two Rodrigues and was running 1st before retiring in hour 12). Then late in the year the chasis was modified with a midship chasis extension to accomodate the 3litre V12. I don't think it was ever intended to do anything but be a prototype for the 1963 250P. The 250P was developed during the "winter of '62-63' . But it seems they kept the V12 0796 around, and it had a new "letter-box" style nose on it for '63 and was used as a "training hack" for Targa Florio and "burned out, apparently beyond repair; the only Dino SP not to survive". But stories are stories.. | ||
| Scott A. B. Collins (Scott)
Junior Member Username: Scott Post Number: 197 Registered: 6-2001 |
True, all new F-cars go out the door at sticker (or less--can you say 456). But "flipped" cars (used) can sell for whatever, and dealers make a fine profit margin on these cars. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2663 Registered: 9-2001 |
Tom, me a Ferrari snob ? It is I that admits that my ex-328 and ex-348 were more Dino than Ferrari. And, all six of my Ferrari badged cars were in fact ALL Fiat. And again, for those of you who obviously can't read, please have someone who can read you my prior posts which clearly state that my marketing thoughts/idea/recommendation were for the future not to attempt an do the impossible of changing the past. | ||
| David McGee (Damcgee)
Junior Member Username: Damcgee Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2003 |
Ok, well anyway, here's my opinion on the 360 Replacement!: When the 360 replaced the 355, it: Was slightly larger, weighed less, had more torque lower in the rpm band while still having more torque up high for more horsepower. EVERYTHING in the car was improved. No one debated whether the 360 was an improvement over the 355. I hope the 360 will be the same way. Perhaps a 3.7L engine with 425 or so hp, weigh in 50 or 100 lbs lighter, look better (is that possible?). Ferrari is not trying to win drag races. The Modena is BALANCED. I hope the replacement is the same. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 470 Registered: 9-2002 |
Frank the last I looked a BB512i it a mid engine car. So according to you all Ferrari's should be front engine v12's correct? Then you my friend have a Dino. Really just an over growen 308 Dino. Frank not to sound bad or to cause you to hate me but,when you say things like this you come accross as a Ferrari Snob. The gold chain crowd of posers who only have a Ferrari for the name and not the pleasure. I'm sure your a very pleasent fellow and I don't want to cause a flame war at all. This is just an observation on my part and others on this board. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1987 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wouter Thanks for the info and links. Very interesting and special. You're right about the evolution of Ferrari's race cars. I believe that for tax reasons many were listed as destroyed only to resurface as something else. Best | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1986 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank The more people long for their product as evidenced by their willingness to pay over MSRP, the higher the value of the Ferrari name becomes, the more profit they make from licencing that name. The 360's are longed for. Today their new front engined V12's less so. | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2003 |
James Of the five SP cars built, only three survive today. The first is still has the V6 engine and remains unrestored! Here is a good feature about it by my friend Richard Owen: http://www.supercars.net/SDBQ?id=491 One of the 268 SPs still exists as well: http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.mv?file=car.mv&num=1435 I'm not sure if the third car is the V12 engined one. The first 250 Ps basically used stretched SP chassis. Just like many Ferraris, these mid-engined cars evolved, rather than being completely new each season. John Smith is out racing quite often now. He runs the Dino in the Shell Historic Challenge in the disc brakes class, where it is pitched against cars ranging from a GTO to a 312 PB. In the single seat class he competes a Alfa Romeo P3. He is also chairman of the TGP, in which he campaigns a Williams F1 racer. A picture of Smith entering Spa's busstop chicane in the Dino:  | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2662 Registered: 9-2001 |
James, since Ferrari forbides its dealers from selling over MSRP, Ferrari would get no extra profit whatsoever for the morons willing to pay over MSRP for a production car. And, if you don't think such buyers are morons, just ask someone who paid over $1,000,000 for an F40 or the onesw that paid $300k for Boxers in 1989 or so. I know a couple of those people and they admit that they were morons to pay so much. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1984 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank "selling parts and other sundries" The last time I checked sales are different from licencing revenue. That's the point. Their name and reputation is their most valuable asset. That's why when Ferrari is spun off from Fiat it will receive such a high P/E. Producing cars that people long to own indeed will pay a premium over MSRP such as the 360 keeps the value of that name high. | ||
| Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member Username: Lomotpk Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2003 |
Well OK, if you put it that way. Let's go back once again.... {As always loosely translated from the original italian} Sng Bertone: "But, but, its SO Modern! The GT4 says 'future' no matter how you look at it. Our Future! Together!" Sgn Ferrari: "Yeah, um maybe, but you know the kids don't like it. We're gettting crucified out there! Sorry Berty, its just business. Gabriella, get me Pininfarina on the phone." Sgn Pininfarina: "I knew you'd call. Did you miss me?" Sgn Ferrari: "Look, just fix it." ...and THATS how we got the 308. | ||
| Robert (Rjklein4470)
Member Username: Rjklein4470 Post Number: 273 Registered: 3-2002 |
This is my short list, In short a less expensive version of the Enzo lets say in the $150,000 range | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2661 Registered: 9-2001 |
James, I included parts AND other sundries in my post which would include art merchandising. Look it up. Richard and Mark, I could care less what any of the cars in the past were called or badged as . My post was a suggestion that in my humble opinion makes sense for the FUTURE marketing of cars coming out under the Ferrari umbrella. FYI, such a marketing suggestion is meant to be utilized in future sales strategy not to change the past marketing of a product. How could one change past marketing anyway ? I guess you could get a Delorean and go "back to the future " | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2660 Registered: 9-2001 |
What ? | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 418 Registered: 2-2001 |
Agree w/Dino Frank re: 360's perhaps not selling quite as well if not badged Ferrari. Would also suspect that (even) fewer 456 and 550/575 would be sold w/out the Ferrari moniker. If so, would then surmise that Frank's gloss of the 360 buyer might apply to customers of all Ferrari models. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1982 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wouter Thanks. That was a horrific accident. The sight of Nigel flying through the air is not one I'll soon forget. I hope John installed seatbelts. What ever happened to the 246SP that Ferrari stuffed a 12 into and Surtees tested? That's one I'd love to find. Best | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 550 Registered: 10-2001 |
Frank- I've said it before and I'll say it again... there are 12 guys in the world that think like you do... we call them knit-pickers or hair- spliters. You guys should all start your own web site and enjoy each others company. Does anyone remember the first episode of "King of The Hill" Bobby is standing at home plate and tells his dad he won't swing because he might get 4 balls and thus a walk. Hank yells back- son you don't want to win by playing lawyer-ball" I think that cute joke sums up Franks attitude on every "dino" rant he's started on F-chat. | ||
| Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member Username: Lomotpk Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2003 |
I think you are all giving Signore Ferrari way too much credit for thoughtfulness, insight, strategic intent and planning. Here was an entreprenuer who built up a little company, and time and time again, when things got difficult (or he just felt like it) he'd change tactics or direction. This 'Ferrari vs. Dino' thing is Monday morning quarterbacking on a grand scale. This could all be resolved of course the instant someone pulls out the "Ferrari Strategic Marketing Plan: 1968" document that lays out the grand vision for the brand and its various sub-brands. But of course there never was one, because thats not how they ran the place. I can see it now... {translated from the original Italian} Sgn PininFarina: "Enzo, what do you want to call this new one?" Sgn Ferrari: "Let's call it Dino, after my boy." Sgn PininFarina: "But you know Frank won't like it, it'll ruin his whole little model about what is a Ferrari and what isn't!" Sgn Ferrari: "Arg! You are Right! I forgot about Frank and his damned rigid taxonomy! Now what shall we do? I mean, I built it. Its for my son. it's a Ferrari!" Sgn Pininfarina: "Well, what if we reclassify all of the rear engined cars as 'Dinos', not Ferraris, and then only use the Ferrari name for the 12 cylinder front-engine cars?" Sgn Ferrari: "What are you, an idiot? That's no way to run a company! That's it, I've had enough of you and your crazy pandering to Frank. No more Ferrari and Pininferia! Gabriella, GET ME BERTONE ON THE PHONE RIGHT AWAY." And so, because of Frank and his rigid dogma we got the GT4. {Everybody smile now, its just a little humor} Richard/Lomotpk | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1980 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank In spite of what you think Ferrari and their auditors consider "Parts" and "Merchandising" to be separate line items. | ||
| Wouter Melissen (Wouterm)
New member Username: Wouterm Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2003 |
Just a head's up for James. The Dino V12 was sold 2 years ago by Neil Corner to John Smith (Phil Collins' manager) after Nigel's horrendous accident. The V12 unit is one of only three special TR engines and the chassis is the only original Dino chassis that exists today. Ferrari's policy of scrapping cars at the end of the season has killed some of the greatest cars ... (sharknose!!) | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2659 Registered: 9-2001 |
James, "wrong" ? I believe "sundries" would cover merchandise art . And, my posts have never meant to rehash what the past marketing trend of Ferrari has been, but to suggest what I believe to be a better marketing trend for the future. It seems Ferrari agrees at least partially from their purchase of Maserati and marketing it under the Ferrari umbrella with a slightly different purpose than its Ferrari badged front engined 550, 575 and 456. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1978 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank Wrong again. Merchandise. Art The first Ferrari was a 12. There were Ferrari race cars that were 4,6,8,&12's The first midengined 12 was a dino. (246SP protoype driven by John Surtees at monza) | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2658 Registered: 9-2001 |
James, I suspect Ferraris greatest source of profit comes from selling parts and other sundries, not cars. And, if you don't think that the same 360 car would sell as well badged as a Dino as it now does badged as a Ferrari, what does that say about the car ? What does that say about 360 buyers ? It seems to me that such a position either says that the 360 is not as good of a car as one is lead to believe, OR that the 360 buyers are not true enthusiast and are in fact just part of the gold chain crowd that just buy the 360 as a trophy with the cachet of the Ferrari name. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2657 Registered: 9-2001 |
Well I like my Boxer just fine even though I KNOW it is really a Fiat just as a Corvette is a GM car. By the way, I saw a Dino 246 at Marty Bishops' shop last week with the carburators off. I did note that while the valve covers said Dino, the heads and block had Fiat on them. I suspect deep in the bowels of all Ferraris there is the word Fiat stammped somewhere. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1977 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank If you'd read Ferrari's financial statements, which despite your doubts I have, you'd learn many interesting things including their greatest source of profit which does not come from their V12 cars. Your statement: "James, so you should agree that the 360 would sell just as well with a Dino badge as it now does with a Ferrari badge ?" is not only untrue it shows a reckless disregard for the truth something that I'm surprised you'd do. " The last road car Mr. Ferrari was personally involved with was a mid engined V8. Unlike others he saw the light" So far as I know the F40 was badged as a Ferrari. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2055 Registered: 6-2001 |
Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the first Ferraris a 4 cylinder? Sometime in the 60s Enzo made a decision that his high performance cars would be mid engine, and we saw the 206SP. Thereafter all or almost all racing Ferraris were mid engine, 6 cylinder, 8 cyllinder or 12 cylinder. The F1 cars are now 10 cylinder, filling out most, if not all of the possibilities. The Dinos were originally to be built mid engine 6 cylinder, and then the 8s followed. My understanding is that most, if not all of them were re-badged as Ferraris, and this was done with Enzo's knowledge and apparent permission. The brand is Ferrari, not Dino (Ferrari). In my humble opinion. Art | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2656 Registered: 9-2001 |
James, so you should agree that the 360 would sell just as well with a Dino badge as it now does with a Ferrari badge ? I have no idea what the profit margin on V8 or V12 cars are for Ferrari. How would you know that information ? Ferarri may in fact make more "profit" on selling fewer V12 cars than it does selling a higher volume of V8 cars, I just don't have that type of information . By the way, I have never heard of a set of car keys falling out of a Lear jet. For that to happen the pilot would have to be careless to allow a hatch or other opening to remain open while his aircraft was being operated. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1975 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank In case you haven't noticed it's the V12 front engine cars that are in danger of hurting Ferrari's profitability. The new ones are languishing and the used ones are dropping faster than a set of car keys falling out of a Lear Jet. The 360's are selling like hotcakes. The last road car Mr. Ferrari was personally involved with was a mid engined V8. Unlike others he saw the light. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2654 Registered: 9-2001 |
Some of you guys are just too much. I am not trying to insult your V8 cars nor am I suggesting that Ferrari rebadge existing V8 cars as Dinos. But, as a marketing strategy, I believe Ferrari needs to expand its line in a way that doesn't delute its name with a lot of cars wearing its flagship badge. While there were some early Ferrari race cars that had 4, 6, 8 and 12 cylinder engines, Ferrari road cars were all 12 cylinder until the 308 series came out. As posted before, Enzo was quoted as once saying all his road cars would be front engine V12s. In any event, if Ferrari would offer 6, 8, 10 and 12 cylinder cars under different brand badging with different attributes of each brand they could sell more cars without diluting the flagship Ferrari brand. Hey, that would help all you guys out there that have a current V8 car badged as a Ferrari. You would then be the owner of one of the last V8 Ferraris ! | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 783 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ben, When we were at the dealership it sounded like the 360 replacement would have chains and not belts. Vincent. | ||
| Ron Thomas (Ronsupercar)
Member Username: Ronsupercar Post Number: 961 Registered: 5-2002 |
Enzo style doors!  | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 296 Registered: 4-2002 |
I agree with Mr. Glickenhaus. Who is the idiot that decided all Ferrari's have 12 cylinders anyway? And a Dino isn't a real Ferrari and who in the hell cares anyway? If Enzo didn't like anything but 12 cylinders why in the hell did he spend so much freeking money developing other engines and cars? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1972 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank We're serious too. There were several V12's badged as Dinos by Mr Ferrari. There were many cars that had a wide range of engines that weren't V12's that were badged as Ferrari's by Mr. Ferrari. That is fact. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 532 Registered: 6-2002 |
Get back the sound of the F355, re-do the styling to something georgeous again, and drop 1,000lbs. Look at build quality and maintinance costs (ie, no more F*&^* belts!) Keep clutch easy to change as in 355. Best! Ben. | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Intermediate Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 1119 Registered: 3-2002 |
Anybody know if "DinoChat.com" has been reserved yet? I get dibs. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1586 Registered: 2-2001 |
Frank used to defend the front grill of the 348/355 as a funcional and traditional component, and now he critisizes it. Step to reality Frank. A Ferrari has nothing to do with V12 or V8, eggcrate grill or not, etc etc. Whatever the company calls a Ferrari is a Ferrari. Ernesto | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2650 Registered: 9-2001 |
I'm serious guys. Ferrari obviously wants to be a multi-brand company. Why not bring back the Dino name for V8 cars, Ferrari for V12 cars, Maserati for luxury oriented cars and maybe even bring Alfa back under the Ferrari umbrella with V6 cars. That would give buyers a choice from a $30k Alfa to a $675k Enzo from the same Italian company. That's what GM does with its Saturn to Cadillac range and DamilerChysler is now doing with its Dodge to Maybach range of cars. It seems to make good marketing sense to me and would keep the Ferrari name from being so watered down with the high prodution V8 cars that are now carrying the Ferrari badge. An Italian car in every garage....Enzo would be proud... Why wouldn't that work ? Mitch, nice looking Dino. I love the fake eggcrate grill Fiat used to make it look like an old Ferrari grill. I like the fake grill as it brings back tradition. In fact my ex-348 had one and i think it looked great. I think that that is what looks odd about the 360 is the lack of a central grill. LOL | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1967 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frank What about Nigel Cornor's V12 Dino. Think he should rebadge that one? How about the F1 team perhaps they should call that Dino as well. Not.  | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 850 Registered: 4-2002 |
Frank: get a life! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2648 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ferrari should redesignate all V8 cars as Dinos and keep the Ferrari name for 12 cylinder cars only. They could keep the Dino prices below $100k and keep the Ferarri 12 cylinder cars priced as they are. | ||
| Me Myself (Kid_enzoz)
Junior Member Username: Kid_enzoz Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2003 |
This might be getting off topic but... Seriously though... a stripped out Dino with a V6 and optional hypo V8 would be awesome for the entry level cars... I agree... the Modena is NOT really entry level. It should be between $60-80k... Next they need a car like your stright 8 brainchild. Then, the 460 of course (with a gated six speed for crying out loud... no paddles *only*) New Maranello... I'd like to see the car with a fly ass convertable hardtop, luxurious interior, F1 system etc. Then they should make a new "GTO" version of the new Maranello... with a fixed hardtop, stiffer suspension, more power/torque @ higher revs. Interior should be sporty as well... with custom sport seats that are ur size like the Enzos. The Enzo should still be at the top of the food chain. As far as Maserati goes... with a few expections.... like the Dino w/ optional V8 and the other 8 cylinder car/Modena... Ferrari should start putting the smaller V8's in the Masers and leave the 12's to themselves... again, with a few exceptions of course... like the Maser version of the Enzo, if they make one out of the racer they are planning to have. Yeah... that's it... Ferrari should hire me... lol | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 671 Registered: 11-2002 |
Good point, and I made that point somewhere else, thus revise to: Nicely trimmed, but not excessive. I still don't like the active aero stuff, but can see your point. Maybe we can finally put the wings on the wheel uprights instead of the body ... ie. we know how strong we need to make the stuff now ... and they should not break off like they did in the 60's F1 (which caused the stupid rule ) A new v6 Dino would really rock. After all the F360 is hardly an entry level Ferrari anymore ... Pete | ||
| Me Myself (Kid_enzoz)
Junior Member Username: Kid_enzoz Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2003 |
PSk... I really like those ideas! To me though, I wouldn't keep it "raw" in the inside... if I wanted a racer I'd get a racer. And I would keep the active aerodynamics... to me they're the future. However... the transverse I8 motor and tweakable gear ratios sounds excatly like something Ferrari needs to draw attention from the new V10 Lamborghini. That and a three pedal/stick sequential seven speed box. I'd have a stripped out version with only a/c and a custom cd/mp3 player like the McLaren F1 had for the hardtop/track model... and I'd have a Barchetta roadster version as well. Another idea... A mid mounted V12 car for the next Modena... It won't have to be the next Enzo based 5.5L unit... it could just be the current V8 enlarged... 4.8L sounds nice... over 100bhp would push hp in the 500 area. IMHO... they need a new Mondial, TR, and a new Dino... a new V6 or V8 Dino would rock... I have ideas for such a car... and I'm sure many others do as well. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 670 Registered: 11-2002 |
Okay my wish list: - Transverse straight 8 engine (450hp min, high revving and not too much low end torque, otherwise I do not have to drive well ...), mounted infront of the rear axle, with gearbox behind (like motorcycles, and with cassette ratios to, so we can play with ratios at my favourite track). This will give enough room to make it a 2+2 (so I can take my kids for a ride too), and also room behind for luggage. Engine air is feed by 2 airboxes similar to F1 cars ... intergrated into the C pillar. Engine to be built like 2 inline 4 cylinders with camshafts driven by gears and also power transferred to the gearbox in the middle of the crank too. No more cam belts and nice race car sound from the gears - Inboard suspension, via pushrods like F1 thus providing rising rate, and adjustability and also provision for adjustable roll bars (from dash). - Manual only. I do not want to pay all that money and change gear by pulling a plastic toggle with all the skill or somebody putting toast into a toaster. If you cannot change gear buy another car - RWD only. Only poofters need 4wd on the road to hide their lack of driving ability. If you want the ultimate performance you would not buy a road car ... so rwd drive for the fun! ... otherwise go racing. - Must be raw!. No aircon, radio, trim at all as an option ... - Rollcage as standard built into the cars windscreen pillars. Braced like the F40 visible through rear window like the 360/F40, etc. - No moving w**ky aerodynamics like the Enzo. If we need downforce stick a bloody wing on it. - Car must be small and light ... if I want a limo, I would buy a limo. Why supercars have to be sooo big I do not know. Look at Porsches ... tiny in comparison. - The ocassional flame spit and backfire on over run a must Pete | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 198 Registered: 8-2001 |
Don't forget the carbon/ceramic brakes! | ||
| jake diamond (Rampante)
Junior Member Username: Rampante Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2002 |
Stick only? What are you trying to do; shorten the waiting lists ??? I'm with you. | ||
| Dr. Shelbee (Shelbee)
Member Username: Shelbee Post Number: 392 Registered: 12-2002 |
Something will definitely be better than Lambo Gallardo | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 629 Registered: 1-2002 |
When I got on the list for a 360 replacement, I asked the sales manager to forward my requests (as if it counts!). Here they are: 4.0 V10 10-11K redline. Smaller and much lighter than 360 ( I don't need no stinking golf clubs) Stick only. Make all luxury items (including a/c) optional. Redesign front and make curves flowing instead of bulbous like the 360. I am waiting for a letter requesting further recommendations. Sincerely, Dave | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2031 Registered: 6-2001 |
The 360 is such a good car, I would hope that the improvements would be relatively minor, a little more HP, say another 30 - 40HP, a restyled front end (I never got used to the 360 front end, but love the rear. Art | ||
| MFZ (Kiyoharu)
Member Username: Kiyoharu Post Number: 293 Registered: 2-2003 |
Basically, something like a 355 or 360-looking car with a V-12, seats 2, rear wheel drive, mid-engine, engine no bigger than 4 liters, normally-aspirated, and easily trackable ala Challenge Stradale. Oh, and choice of manual or F1 tranny. A V12 with a small displacement is preferred, like a 3 or 4 liter engine. I mean, supposedly all the V8s are going to the Maseratis, why not make Ferrari stay V12 only, like how it used to be? V-10 engines suck, the only reason it's used in F1 is because the rules stipulate so (and Renault's superior design over the Ford V-8s and the Ferrari and Honda V-12s back in the early to mid-90s convinced the rest to do the same). Supposedly BMW, Toyota and even Ferrari wanted to use V-12s in 2000, but FIA changed the rules so only V-10 engines can be used. | ||
| Craig A (Milo)
Member Username: Milo Post Number: 312 Registered: 4-2003 |
.... faster, stronger, better .... | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1479 Registered: 12-2002 |
I just want more manual transmissions. In 10 years all Ferraris are going to be F1 transmissions at this rate...As it is, it is really hard to find a good stick 575 or 360. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 844 Registered: 4-2002 |
"Ferrari 355&360 have such silly soft top electronics" No electronics on a F355B top! | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 547 Registered: 10-2001 |
I like everything about the 360, but the bang-for-buck ratio is worst in the industry. Only thing I'd like to see... Ferrari 355&360 have such silly soft top electronics. Until they can get it right they need to go back to a manual top. | ||
| Scott A. B. Collins (Scott)
Junior Member Username: Scott Post Number: 192 Registered: 6-2001 |
Agree with much of what has been said. I really want a manual transmission, and Ferrari should respect he ghost of Colin Chapman and work extensively on keeping the weight off of the car. To me, the golden virtue of the current car is its balance and integration--I don't want this to be diluted. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 841 Registered: 4-2002 |
Warning--my opinions only--others are free to have their won. -500plus shp and a lot more torque to meet/beat the competition TQ == displacement or {super|turbo}charging shp is how turbine engines are measured, fwhp is how automotive engines are measured rwhp is how assembled cars are measured -super or turbo charging ok. Don't understand Ferrari's aversion to this. The 288 and F40 are still highly regarded. Why do you care how the power is made if there is a sufficient amount of it? Do you think this will increase or decrease the average maintanance bill? -a V10 would be nice but V8 ok Again, why should you care? -4 sec or less to 60 and a low 12's 1/4mile Ferraris are not drag racing cars. If you want a drag racing capable car buy a Vette or a Viper. The current 360 is right at 4.0 sec and mid 12's. -rear wheel drive ok but open to 4 Weight is the enemy, and RWD is more fun when you understand how to drive correctly. -improved 6 or 7 speed F1 All I ask for is a manual 6. But if you have to have car do your work, then just ask for an F1 that doesn't eat clutches and doesn't break. -berlineta and spider versions. soft top ok for less weight. use the weight to build the stiffest, strongest chassis and most compliant suspension. -drop dead good looks from the getgo of course. Nothing you have to "grow to like" You mean like the 360? | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 461 Registered: 9-2002 |
How about a car that acutally performs as high as the price tag? How about a car that doesn't need to stay in the shop for a month to fix an F1 tranny problem? How about a car that has build quality to justify the price? How about Ferrari buys the rights to the M-Benz sl500 and puts a different body on it, and sells it for a higher price? Not slagging 360 owners, I love the car but is it really worth the price? Heck I ask myself the same question when fixing my 308!! | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1584 Registered: 2-2001 |
500hp should be the mark, 480 ok if weight is kept relatively low V10 should be the aim, normally aspirated. no awd 7speed F1, with paddles that move with the steering wheel similar steering wheel to Enzo's. no frills version, similar to stradale, with no radio, gps, leather, etc etc. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 219 Registered: 4-2001 |
Rather than wait and be told, what specs and features would you tell Ferrari to include? I'll start: -500plus shp and a lot more torque to meet/beat the competition -super or turbo charging ok. Don't understand Ferrari's aversion to this. The 288 and F40 are still highly regarded. -a V10 would be nice but V8 ok -4 sec or less to 60 and a low 12's 1/4mile -rear wheel drive ok but open to 4 -improved 6 or 7 speed F1 -berlineta and spider versions. soft top ok for less weight. -drop dead good looks from the getgo of course. Nothing you have to "grow to like" What do you think? Changes? Additions? I truly love my 360 spider but it needs more low end grunt and worry it will loose its place to very tough competition. |