| Author | Message | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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I drove a 2000 500 MB coupe, Not the AMG version, might have been a 600 i dont remember. It was farily quick but compared to the 512TR it was SO QUIET, I felt like I was in a library at 100 mph  Also its got a bit of that US car 1950's feel cus its sort of huge & overstuffed. Give me my Very Loud & much cozier 512TR any day | ||
| Erik Lombard (Elombard)
|
Hey William I meant double clutching not heel and toeing, sorry for the confusion. You are right modern "dog ring racing gear boxes" are different but all street type synchromesh gear boxes benefit from heel and toe (excluding I suppose 355/360 f1 etc.). I believe that in the pre synchromesh gear boxes the double clutch allowed the transmission gears to spin up to the same speed as the motor with the second release of the clutch where as a modern heel and toe with a single push of the clutch asks the synchronizers to match the gear speeds. The single push of the cltch allows the removal of the transmission from gear into neutral and the all glorious blip of the throttle to match the engine speed. I am no transmission enginer so I could be wrong here. Also, I have to agre with some of the comments below I think the guy in the cold weather should buy a 348 and skip the Porsche, life is to short to miss the MM if you have the means. Finally has anyone ever forsaken driving a Lincoln or other fine automatic transmission automobile for the sake of driving a five speed? In most situations I would rather drive a clapped out manual VW than a 2000 MBZ. What do you think? | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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Erik, in Indy cars, LeMans cars, F1, & modern ferraris heel & toe may not be necessary but in our older cars, pre f1 box, it certainly is necessary | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
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"heel and toe" is the common name, but maybe they should of named it "big toe and little toe". I think the majority of people that "heel and toe" actually use the two sides of their feet. | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
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I don't know how you guys with the size 13s and 14s drive the car. I usually wear size 12s but have to squeeze into 11-1/2s because I kept hooking my toe on the steering shaft... At least now I can "heel & toe" with the sides of my shoes. | ||
| Erik Lombard (Elombard)
|
I read one time that double clutching came from gearboxes manufactured before there were synchronizers and that in racing it was no longer used or neccesary. In fact they asked Emmerson Fittipaldi and he agreed that double clutching was no longer necesarry. I do agree with the argument it would be easier on the drive line though. I also emphatically 2nd the earlier comment that you feel so much more connected to the driving experience when heel and toeing. If you are enough of a sports car enthusiast to appreciate a Ferrari you should try to learn how to do it. Heel and toe is FUN. I would not learn on a $10K+ Ferrari gear box though. Also I have size 14 feet and the only way I can do it is to use the side of my foot like an earlier post mentioned. I noticed that in a 308 at least the heel and toe operation is so natural and easy I dont even think about it. The engine revs so freely and the sychronizers line up so quickly it is like there is no strain at all being put on the drive train when downshifting. | ||
| Michael A. Niles (Man90tr)
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Mitchel -- Any particular reason you double clutch on the upshift? I agree however that the entire transition in the downshift seems smoother when double clutching than just the hell toe blip. The car just seems more balanced and a little more responsive during the first second or two of acceleration just after the shift. Do you happen to know the reason for this feeling? | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
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Have you ever noticed that when you double clutch upon an upshift or downshift, it engages MUCH smoother than if you just single clutch the shift. Is it just me? I learned to double clutch on a Mini Cooper and a MBG GT! Not to rub it in, but I will be able to drive my car all winter here in Atlanta, we hardly have a winter and we never have snow! Yee haw! | ||
| Peter M. Kamarchik (Pmkamarchik)
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Just a note on the topic of throttle blipping for those of us with big feet (i'm a size 13) - the technique someone mentioned below using the inside of your right foot to brake and the outside to blip the throttle works really well (this is the technique Skip Barber recommends in their driving schools). I've found it gives me much finer control of how much I blip the throttle, as the side-to-side actuation of your foot is (at least to me) much more controllable than lifting or lowering your heel, and doesn't involve having to break your own leg to drive your car. Martin, you'll definitely want to try this - it's really satisfying to do it properly. As far as the single or double-clutching debate goes, supposedly you can do either without losing speed - if you single clutch, you just have to blip a little harder... | ||
| Carl Gustaf Landin (Gustaf)
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I think I'll need to put it away during december and january. Mostly because they put salt on the roads to fight ice and that stuff eats up the paintwork. But in 2-3 years when prices of F355s have come down to a vaguely acceptable level, the Porsche is out! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I like that Maranello Magic, well put. The Ferrari isnt the logical choice in any circumstance regarding performance and useability as you have noticed. For the price of any Ferrari you could make a car that would kill it in these two categories, but as you said the MM can grab hold of you. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
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Carl- I live in Indiana and have to put my car away for a few months. Usually end of Nov. thru mid march. It kind of sucks but I tell you it really makes you look forward to spring and after driving my lumina around for four months it is like the Ferrari is brand new again. | ||
| Carl Gustaf Landin (Gustaf)
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Sorry if I turned the attention away from heel and toe into my car selection. Bret, I am a true Tifosi deep down inside but as William said it is nice to be able to enjoy sports cars all year around. It would be great to drive it during ski trips. I also think it would be the better investment in the long run. I know I shouldn't be writing this stuff here (or anywhere else for that matter) but if you compare the performance and handling of these cars I actually think the Porsche will come out on top. Then again the 348 is 5 years older. I'll guess I'll have to ask myself whether handling, performance, usability, and money can outweigh Maranello magic, its gonna be a close call. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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Carl, seeing as u r so far North & get a lot of snow I imagine, get the 993 4S, That way u have a sportscar u can use year round I got a Mitsubishi 3000GTVR4 as my year round sports car, Its awesome to drive up to the ski mountain in a sportscar | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Carl get the 348, just get the 348. It hurts me so much to hear you talk about Porsches when you have a Ferrari at your fingertips. I'm gonna go curl up and cry now. | ||
| Carl Gustaf Landin (Gustaf)
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William, I think things are leaning towards a silver 993 Carrera 4s from 96´. But just to confuse myself I went to my Ferrari dealer here in Stockholm. They had just gotten a pristine 348tb with an immaculate history, for 10k less than the Porsche. Tempting... Concerning heel and toe, I think it migtht take a while before getting used to the fact that the pedals are hinged to the floor (on the Porsche of course). Just to makes things even more tricky. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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I will definitely meet you there. Maybe we should set up a meeting of Chat Members at that time and get together. I think there will be lots of us there, what do you think? | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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Martin, I hope u dont like Countaches cus you'll never fit with those big feet LOL u going to Cavallino Classic in Palm Beach in Jan ? I'll b there | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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I have size 11 1/2 feet. I can't do sh*t heel/toe as ther eis not enough room to do any. I also have no feeling in my right foot when I am trying to do that! With shoes off it is somewhat possible. Looks funny though when you step out of your car on the track in socks... | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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I'd get a silver 993 4S & stick a GT2 wing on it, Ruf Turbos & intercoolers, RRR!!!!!! Now thats a car Thinking of adding a Viper GTS or a 993 turbo to the collection in 02 or 03 | ||
| Carl Gustaf Landin (Gustaf)
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I think that heel & toe is one of the things that sets us true sports car drivers apart from the average motorist. Not only does it (as earlier stated) reduce wear on the driveline as well as sounding very nice, it also makes me feel as if I'm driving more actively. I must agree that it is very hard to get it right. The nose of my Porsche 944 S2 usually goes up and down as I engage the cluth again. I always double declutch without braking when planning to overtake, this works like a charm and feels completely smooth. My goal is get the same smoothness when applying the brakes at the same time. I just hope that I can get the hang of it before I get my next car which is either going to be a Porsche 993 Carrera 4S, Maserati 3200GT or a Ferrari 348TB (considering the prices of gearbox replacements in case I really mess up on a heel & toe.) Please feel free to comment on my list of candidates. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
Guys, after re-reading my comment it sounds like I had the answer to all of the questions concerning shift proceedures on the track. I only wanted to comment that it seemed better to match the revs. in upshifting or downshifting under street conditions and that I felt it would work as well on the track. I don't want you to think I was doubting your area of expertise. I am not a track driver as some of you guys are but your comments do bring in some good points to apply in street driving as was indicated by Daniel MD. I just wanted to make that clear, Thanks. Magoo | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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1 good way to know if u r double clutching perfectly is to double clutch down while braking hard. If the nose bobs up & down u need more practice | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
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Daniel, yes, what you're doing is perfect heel/toe. Double clutch is... 1 - Brake right foot 2 - Depress clutch left foot 3 - Shift to neutral 4 - Undepress clutch 5 - While still braking, blip throttle with same foot. 6 - Depress clutch left foot 7 - Downshift 8 - Undepress clutch I can do it really slowly, but only the best can do it quicker than a standard heel/toe. The benefits of full double clutching are that your throttle blip comes with neutral engaged and because the clutch isn't depressed, then your entire drive line is in sync. Have you ever seen car races where they put cameras looking at the driver's feet? It will blow your mind. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
|
I think the clue here in clutch preservation and keeping the car stable on the road or on the track is to first match the revs. Whether you are upshifting or down shifting. Also doing this eliminates "double clutching" as one would do in a 18 wheeler. In other words William I agree with you. | ||
| Daniel B Reese MD (Dbr328gtb)
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This is an excellent thread to improve driving skills. William et al, My downshifts are imperceptable(except for engine sound) and go like this: 1 depress brake 2 depress clutch 3 blip throttle with right half of right foot 4 release clutch then release brake 5 accelerate! I've been told by instructors I am very smooth and I have never needed to replace a clutch in any car. I dont think this is double clutching as I dont depress clutch twice-- Or is it? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
|
The best way to get a car sideways is to downshift without matching revs (revs. of tac. RPM/engine/crankshaft/flywheel vs. clutch/pressure plate/input shaft). I didn't want to say drive shaft, because it usually spins at a different speed because it's after the gear box. I'm having this problem right now racing my Mazda. I heel/toe all day long in the BMW and Ferrari but because of pedal placement I can't do it in the race car (and that's the only place I really need it!). Even braking in a straight line I get it a little sideways on down shifting. If you have any steering input, then you're going to get a different view of the track. Yes, I am working on it, what race car driver can't heel/toe? | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
|
engine braking effect is what I was describing in my #2 reason. It can upset the handling balance of a car in a braking zone or entering a corner. For some reason double clutching in my 512TR always becomes much more difficult when slowing from 150 mph & entering the Chicane at Watkins Glen while trying to not get her sideways LOL | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
|
Sorry, I just thought of something else.....I am in normal mode driving along in 4th....I want to overtake when all is clear so I shift down to 3rd.....In the 360 I just flick the down pedal without taking my foot off the gas...the car will be at the same speed but will have higher revs (engine speed).... doesn't this provide the same effect as you described in your thread.... Thanks Jason | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
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does this actually reduce the engine braking effect?.....It feels a lot more controlled (progressive) with the throttle blip. Thanks Jason | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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Craig is correct. The reasons u want the engine & trans to have matching speeds is 1)so u have less wear on the clutch & trans 2) so u dont upset the balance of the car, this can happen when downshifting a powerful engine without doubleclutching | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
|
Assuming approx constant speed, in order to have the engine RPM proper in the lower gear, it needs to be higher. A throttle blip helps the engine match the proper speed when the gearbox is re-engaged. | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
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Okay I am about to show my driving ignorance here, but could someone explain to me what is the purpose of heel & toe.....When I have the 360 in sport mode (F1 box), as I approach a corner, and change down, I get a wonderful throttle blip....Other than sounding good (and believe me it sounds great) what is the point Thanks Jason | ||
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