| Author | Message | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Peter Boray: Now you know why Lancia won three consecutive WRC Championships with that car... | ||
| William (Countach)
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I got a ride a wild BBLM race car at Pocono, we were doing at least 180 MPH & we were dicing with a BMW M1 race car. Now that was a wild ride  got back in my 308QV & I also felt like all my power was gone. Ah, but soon the 512tr race car will b done & I can take those BBLMs on 1 on 1 | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
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Some of you have posted that since the engine was designed by Ferrari and used for racing, the Dino is a "Ferrari". Others have said that the fact that the cars were built by Ferrari is what makes it a true Ferrari. In my view these two things can not a Ferrari make, because they both apply to two cars that certainly are not Ferraris: the Fiat Dino 2400 Spyder and Coupe. I own a Fiat Dino 2400 Coupe and it has the same engine as the Dino 246 GT (listed horsepower difference is due to DIN vs. SAE and marketing department exagerration: though some evidence exists that some 246GTs got different cams and also of course the 246GT exhaust system is better for power). The cars also share several other parts (carbs, ignition on early models, etc.) which is why I am lurking on this forum - I might learn something! My car was assembled in '71 at the Ferrari plant in Modena along side the other Dino engined cars, in a building built with Fiat money specifically for the Dino line of cars. But this Fiat Dino is certainly not a Ferrari! It's not really much of a Fiat either (bodies being built by bertone and the mechanicals not really sharing many parts with lesser Fiats). It's the 2+2 Dino, in my book. I've seen some Fiat Dino Spyder owners with prancing horses on their cars but this is silly. The Dino cars being rare isn't a good qualification for "Ferrari" status either since there were fewer 2.4 engined Dino Fiats built than Dino 246gt>s. I'd say it's Enzo's choice. He didn't intend to call the 246 or the Bertone 308 Ferraris and it was only the suits at Fiat that made this change. But heck, that doesn't mean that they are any less of a car just because they have a different name. The engine is a direct decendant of one of Ferraris most successful racing engines. I certainly wish my Dino engine was surrrounded by that 246GT body! (though then what would I do with my passengers? hmm...). BTW, great board. I'll go back to lurking mode since I don't actually own a Ferrari. | ||
| Peter Boray (Gts308qv)
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GT4-Peter! Speaking of Lancia Stratos, I just drove an ex-rallye car last week and it was just unbelievable how responsive and fast the thing was. Leaves any Dino for dead. I guess with a works prepared Dino V6 and a lightweight body, the power to weight ratio is impressive. The steering and handling was the most precise and direct I have ever felt. After I got back into my GTS308QV, felt like I was driving an old Ford Galaxie! | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
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Sorry, you are correct. The 550 is a 12 | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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Don't forget the Lancia Stratos and its use of the 246 engine! | ||
| Christian Kienle (Christiank)
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550 is a 12 as well? | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
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I have driven, leased or owned a 246 Dino, a 308, 328, 348, 355, 550 and a 365GT2+2 (the only 12 cylinder in the bunch). I don't have any Ferrari badging on my current 246, but it is this car, more than any of the others (except maybe the 365) that makes me feel like Phil Hill blasting down the Mulsanne. For me, the 246 Dino is the essence of what a Ferrari should be, whether it wears the name tag or not. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
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Peter, I too am a purist. I agree with your comment. | ||
| Peter Boray (Gts308qv)
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After reading all the input, we can say they are all built at the Ferrari factory, so to me they are all Ferrari. My GTS308QV is a Dino called a Ferrari. The GT4 which I also love is a Dino which most people call a Ferrari. Hey who cares, they are all beautiful cars with style & panache ! The GT4 was given to Bertone due to the fact that Pininfarina could not come up with a package in the time frame given. Bertone had various designs already penned for the Lamborghini which were ideal for the new 2+2 V8 Dino car. We should be proud of our Ferrari's and call them as they should be, be it Dino or Ferrari. I know this may be petty but nothing annoys me more than "identity-crisis" owners of early GT4's or 246 Dino's sticking prancing horses and Ferrari badges everywhere. It detracts from the beauty of the Dino design AND degrades the true meaning of why it was called a DINO. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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How about this: IF it came with a Ferrari badge(and an odd serial #) it's a Ferrari. IF it came with a Dino badge (and a even serial #) it's a Dino. The rest of it is purely subjective. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
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Who designed the 308 engine and when was it first made? Did Vittorio Jano design it? | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
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The Dino engine was originally developed as a racing engine for Formula 2, (where it posted lap times as fast as the 12 cylinder F1 cars), and it also appeared in sports-racers like the 206 and 296S. All of these were full racing "Ferraris", as were the 4 cylinder 750 Monzas, etc. So the racing cars around which the Ferrari legend is built were 4, 6, 8 and 12 cylinders, and all did well. However, all roadgoing cars from the late 40's were 12 cylinders, and this became a Ferrari trademark. When F2 rules changed in 1957, they contained a new requirement that engines used in F2 must appear in 500 roadgoing cars (homologation), and time was short (at the time Ferrari built only about 500 cars each year). So Enzo turned to FIAT to build 500 Dino engines (the engine, a 65 degree V-6 was named after his son, who died in 1957 during its development. All V-6 engines from that point on were called "Dinos"), and to find a suitable car to put these engines into. The engines, while built by FIAT, were designed by Ferrari, specifically by Vittorio Jano, probably the greatest engine designer in Ferrari history, and were built to Ferrari standards. The FIAT Dinos carried the V-6s (although in detuned form, malking only 175 bhp), and Ferrari got to compete in F2 (which promptly changed the rules again, making all of this unnecessary). At the same time(1967), a cash crunch hit Ferrari, and they decide to build an "entry-level" model around the Dino engine to raise cash. The 206 debuts in 1969, with the Dino engine, and no Ferrari badges. The 246 follows in 1969, with a bigger engine and more hosepower that both the 206 and the FIAT vertsion. Enzo felt that roadgoing Ferraris should be 12 cylinders, and tried to make "Dino" a separate marque, which worked fine throughout Dino 246 production (people bought it because it was fast, sleek and sexy, even without Ferrari badging). But when the 308 Dino came out in '74 it didn't sell well, despite being an 8 cylinder, and after 2 years of struggling, dealers convinced Enzo to let it wear Ferrari badging, whereupon it sold better. The 308/328 series followed. If you used the 12 cylinder engine as the only criterion for "Ferrariness" then all 308/328/348/355/360 models are not Ferraris, despite carrying the badge. If you apply the criteria that a Ferrari must be fast, exotic, made (for the most part) in Modena, and contain an excellent high performance engine, then the 246 Dinos certainly qualify. Also remember that despite being "entry-level" at the time, these cars were built by hand, at the rate of 2-3 a day, certainly much more of a custom job than the 360s being "mass-produced" today. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I know one concourse winner who lives in my town, he's had like a dozen Ferraris and he wins a ton of concourse all the time, his cars are all immaculate. He drives his car like he stole it, tracks it like every weekend, but he keeps it clean. Garage queens suck. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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William, I think it's time for a concours for owners who drive their cars!!!! Then trailer queen owners could see what their missing. | ||
| Scott Anderson (Srandrsn)
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I think that the term "true Ferrari" is one that cannot be defined. We all know that Pininfarina, Bertone.. "Designed" Ferraris; Scaglietti and others "built" some of the bodies and Ferrari of course made the Engines/chassis, yet we don't refer to a 250 GTO as a Pininfarina-Scaglietti-Ferrari! And what could be more pure Ferrari than a 250 GTO? Perhaps the only cars that could be called true Ferraris are the earliest ones the man himself built. The point is that the cars Enzo Ferrari himself or the Ferrari company "concieved" are Ferraris. The fact that they "sub-contracted" out portions of the cars to Pininfarina, Fiat, Bertone or whom ever has no bearing on wether or not the car is a Ferrari. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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I just dont get those COncours guys who never drive their cars. Its like having a supermodel as a GF & never having sex, Why would u do that ????? | ||
| Christian Kienle (Christiank)
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I like all of them! There are people who say Dino's are no Ferrari, or a Ferrari has to have at least 8 cylinders. Some don't like the Mondial, the 348 and Testarossa because of the 80's styling. Others out there say that a Ferrari has to be kept original. Last week I talked to a guy who said that nobody else other than a trained F technician is allowed to touch his car. BTW he owns a 1970 Ferrari Dino with 30,000 miles and prides himself that he is winning many concourses and always trails his car (never drives it). OK here ends my tolerance, how can a guy be a Ferrari lover when he doesn't know how his car drives. The conversation was over when I told him that I will put a tubi exhaust on my TR - haha! | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
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I don't get the "if it doesn't have 12 cylinders it isn't a Ferrari thinking" and I know Enzo liked the 12s. But back in the 50s they built 4 and 6 cylinder Ferraris and in fact if I am not mistaked won the world championship with 4 cylinder cars in 52 and 53. | ||
| Mark (Mnmark)
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Interesting! Thanks for filling some history gaps. Personally, I think I'll continue to honor the memory of Dino Ferrari, and call them Dinos. Very interesting about the mid-production name change on the GT4's, and I didn't know there were that many of them made! I remembered that Enzo wanted his road cars to have V-12 engines, but not front engined. When did the 550 design first get proposed, before or after Enzo's death? Going back to front engine from the Testarossa/512BB line represented a bit of a change. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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The GT4 actually started life as a replacement for the Fiat Dino Coupe. This is a major reason why Bertone was chosen to design it. And since Ferrari were already building the Coupes and Spyders and Fiat dropped the project, Ferrari inheritted as its own. Since it was Ferrari's project now, but not a "true" Ferrari (as it didn't have the magical V-12 at that time), it was natural to call it a Dino. It also came at the right time as they were winding-down production of the Dino 246's and it made somewhat of an evolution model (hence the initial Dino badging). Right from the designing stage though, Enzo had alot of imput into the development of the car. Yes it is true, because of sagging sales, cars mid-way through 1975 had the badges replaced with Ferrari. And customers of previous year GT4's had the chance of replacing their badges too. 308 GTB/S share the same frame, albeit a few inches shorter, the same suspension, the same engine and transmission. Plus many other small parts here and there. Until the 328, the GT4 was the most mass-produced Ferrari. In the end, you either like the car or you don't. I don't like the car, I love it! | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
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Jay said: "The fact that the GT4 has the same engine as the 308 makes it a Ferrari." Well said but acually it is the 308 GTB/S that has the same engine as the GT4 which, of course, was the first of the V8 road cars. Essentially the GTB/S is a GT4 missing 8" of frame rail and sporting a different skin. Most experts agree that Bertone did a good job of addressing the very difficult mid engine, 4 seat, low roofline, in a small car criteria. A close inspection of the design revels a catalog of seemingly insignificant details that are harmoniously combined in a manner that only a master designer could achieve. The design looks better in person than it does in photographs. I have found that the best views of my car are from very low angles, about axle height. The most interesting set of lines can be seen in the side view by just looking at the area from the "B" pillar (rear of door) forward. The "vent" window, windshield (both at the "A" pillar and centerline), hoodline, beltline and the upsweep of the bottom of the fender all work together. Unfortunately that big ugly "Federal" bumper and side lights, IMHO, severely damaged the original design, something that Ferrari did not allow to happen on any subsequent model. Look at a "Euro" version for the way it was ment to be. I wasn't looking for a GT4 when I found mine, I just bought the best car that I could afford and after a couple of years I find that, as many have said, it's one of the best Ferrari values. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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Is the 308GT4 engine the same as th3 same as the 308GTB engine ? Cus there have been plenty of GTB & GT4 race cars. Also dont the 288GTO & F40 share the same engine architecture as the 308 V8 ? Ferrari may have liked only front engine 12s but the last road car Enzo had a lot of input in was the F40, That was his baby | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
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If memory serves me correctly half way through the GT4's run they did change it from a Dino to just a GT4. The fact that the GT4 has the same engine as the 308 makes it a Ferrari. You can clearly see the evolution of the 246 right up to the new 360. Even though the GT4 was designed by Bertone, it still fits into the evolutionary design (Look at the nose and air intakes) Call it what you will, the cars of Ferrari that are not called Ferraris ARE Ferraris. That sounds wierd but it pretty much sums it up. | ||
| Allyn (Allyn)
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Dinos (both GT4 and 246)are Ferraris. Why? Because they have the soul of a Ferrari even if they say Dino. See the NSX Daily Driver thread... | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
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It you will read the writings of the times it was Enzo's intention that all non-12 cylinder cars be called Dinos and not Ferraris. It was only after FNA complained to Ferrari Spa. that it couldn't sell the Dino 308GT4 that those cars were rebadged Ferraris. It is my understanding that Ferrari intended to bring back the Dino name with the 348 series but was persuaded to change their mind again by FNA. In fact, Enzo never liked any car other than a V12 front engined one. Enzo never warmed up to mid engined cars at all although he accepted them as they were more competitive in F1. | ||
| David Prall (Davidpra)
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Although it is true that Enzo once stated, "A Ferrari is a 12-cylinder car", there is actually a more significant distinction. The 246 is often regarded as a "non-pure" Ferrari because its engine (a V6) was designed and built entirely by FIAT. The 308GT4 is also often regarded as a "non-pure" Ferrari because its engine (a V8) while being designed and built by Ferrari, was neither a 12-cylinder nor a derivative of a racing engine configuration. Also, Bertone did the body design, rather than Pininfarina (who has always done the true, production Ferraris --- although several other companies, including Bertone, have done one-offs and low volume models). So, these ideas about what is and what is not a "true Ferrari" clearly become a bit arbitrary and subjective. By extension of the same logic, one could argue that all Ferraris made after 1969 (the year in which FIAT acquired a controlling interest in Ferrari) are not "pure Ferraris" either. So, everyone must decide for his/her self what constitutes the genuine article. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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Ferrari made race cars with 12, 10, 8, 6, & even 4 cylinder engines long before the Dino's I'd say just call it a Ferrari & get it over with The 308s, 348s, 355s,360s, 288GTO, & F40 can all trace their roots back to the 246 Dino & I dont see any1 claiming these r not really Ferraris | ||
| Mark (Mnmark)
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Please set me straight. My feeble memory recalls that Enzo wanted his road cars to have 12 cylinders, and when it became apparant that he needed to make an 'entry' level car with less than 12 cylinders, he didn't want to call them Ferrari, so he used the name of his beloved son, Dino, to badge these cars. Thus, it is not right to call it a Ferrari 246 Dino, it is a Dino 246. Yes it was made by Ferrari, but there are no Ferrari nor prancing horses on the cars, instead a green badge with a yellow-script Dino. Isn't it kind of 'dissin' Dino and his memory/memorium to call his cars Ferraris? Or should I tell people that I drive a Fiat 308 Ferrari? Ok, that may not be fair, but how about a Toyota LS400 Lexus? If my memory fails, please educate me. And I'd like to see what your opinions are. Obviously, I feel a little strongly about this, not that it affects me one way or the other. Also, what are the 308 GT4's? Are they Ferraris or Dinos? Hope you're having a good fall, Happy Halloween! |