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stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member
Username: Balataboy

Post Number: 403
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 11:01 pm:   

So, .....as anyone decided on, &/or purchased, one of the options detailed below yet?

I would love to know if you made a purchase and how it turned out for you! Thanks, Stu
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 201
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 7:11 am:   

Every Ferrari road car I have measured or found the WSM specifications for have relatively soft wheel rates. The difference between wheel rate and spring rate is the wheel rate (also in lb/in) is what the driver feels and the tires deal with while driving. Wheel rate takes the geometry of the suspension into the equation and makes it easy to compare different cars. A better comparison is ride frequency, but I'll present one thing at a time.

Motion ratio is simple to find. Jack the spindle up one inch and measure how far the lower spring perch has moved relative to the upper spring perch. On a 348 rear suspension, the spring perch will move an average of 0.85 inches for every one inch the wheel moves. So, the motion ratio for 348 rear is 0.85 (you may see equations that use the inverse of this number, Carroll Smith's equations would come up with 1.18 for the ratio).

With this knowledge, one discovers that many Ferrari's are designed with wheel rates as low as 100 LBf/in, which is the TR rear double shock suspension. So your 200 LBf/in spring in the 308 drops with the motion ratio to 98 LBf/in. approximately. The equation is WR = SR(MR)2,WR is wheel rate in LBf/in, SR is the spring constant in LBf/in, and MR is motion ratio where MR is stated as Dshock position/Dwheel position.

Why are Ferrari's so "soft"? This term is relative, IMO, Ferrari's are no softer than most other road going cars, even other sporting automobiles. Suspension design is all about compromise with a road car. The environments change, the market is world wide. Ferrari determined that this is the best solution, and I agree. Most Ferrari's are comfortable, even on long drives (and I've driven them cross-country), and sporting enough to be better in many ways than the competition. Ferrari improves on the average sporting car with a bit more suspension damping. As an owner, overall you are satisfied. But this compromise in design opens the door for improvements if you (the owner/driver) have interests outside Ferrari's average design parameters, like track events or actual competition on the racetrack.

For reference, the front wheel rate of a F355 Challenge car is 1,078 LBf/in with a 2200 LBf/in spring! This is very uncomfortable on the street, plus this system utilizes a tender spring to take up slack when the suspension goes full droop, and comes crashing down on this tender spring with every slight roadway undulation.

Hope this helps, please ask more if interested. :-)
Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member
Username: Pma1010

Post Number: 117
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 11:10 pm:   

Rob
What is/was Ferrari's logic for "softer" springs, like the stock 308? Are the later cars as softly sprung?
Philip
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member
Username: Me_k

Post Number: 386
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 6:13 pm:   

I think that if you get your 308 anywhere near any type of track or enjoy ďspiritedĒ driving, a shock and spring upgrade is well worth the money. When I did my car it was a night and day difference, all the 308 handling/feel quirks are gone. Itís completely predicable and controlled under any speed/conditions Iíve thrown at it. I went with an Ohlins STJ which is maybe half way between the bilstein and Moriss dampers that Rob has. I think what Rob is saying is exactly right, for sport driving you get a lot making the first step to something like a bilstein. The steps get more subtle after that. The Ohlins STJ has a much bigger gas volume and an external rebound (low speed). The volume improves compliance at full compression and the external adjuster allows a quick adjustment from a street tuned shock to a decent track shock. Spending more money gets you an external reservoir which allows external compression (low speed) adjustment and can also have high speed compression/rebound adjustment. That lets you go from a great street shock to a great track shock. All the shocks are fully rebuildable and internally adjustable, so they can be custom tuned to your driving style, you just have to send the cheaper ones to shop. Iíve found that usually once I get them the way I like them, really never change them except a small tweak to the rebound for the track, so that was the only adjuster I paid for. I could easily live without the adjuster, but I couldnít live without good shocks.

I do prefer my springs a little stiffer and probably a little less compression damping though. I've been runnig 450 front and 400 rear with stock 18mm anti-sway bars and am pretty happy with it. I may try a little less maybe 400/350. I'm not sure though, I like it now, but I'd like to try a little less.
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 197
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 6:34 am:   

For the Moriss Dampers Quad-Tube system and the Bilstein / Moriss set up, ride height is adjustable, though we will set the lower spring perch to lower the car on average one inch. Adjustment both when we build and when you install is very easy, so if it is determined one certain customer wants to do a different specification, no problem.

There is a typo and the Bilstein track front spring is 325 lb/in.

As for adjustability, the ultimate in user adjustability is the Moriss Dampers Quad Tube shocks. Double independently adjustable, wide range of adjustability, option for cockpit control via electronic display. With this you get it all in damping, adjust for road comfort and track attack modes. The damping range of Moriss Quad Tube vs. Koni is vastly different. The Koni 82- series is certainly "adjustable", but ask Koni, they market this feature as a wear compensator, not a performance enhancement. The adjusters on the Moriss Dampers Quad Tube adjust the magnitude of the force curve both in bump and rebound. We have comparison Force vs. Velocity plots on our web site: http://www.morissdampers.com/foundersforum3.htm and more information here too: http://www.morissdampers.com/shockology.html

The Bilstein internal architecture is completely different from the Moriss Quad-Tube. Bilstein's for this application can only be converted to rebound-only or double simultaneous adjustment, and the cost of this option brings within $200 of the Quad-Tube, so why compromise. The Bilstein is such a great shock absorber for the cost, we cannot improve upon it at this price, so we sell them as entry level in our equipment range.

Here's an analogy of damper technology:

You have three engines for three different applications and working environments: a Kia, for all-out economy (both manufacturing and ownership), Ferrari 360, ultimate street performance with acceptable reliability, but still affordable on some level, obviously both for manufacture and ownership by the end user. Then you have Formula One. Different operating characteristics, life expectancy, manufacturing and operating costs. First engine is $1900, second is $40,000, third is $MILLIONS. The consumer makes the choice of what the application is, budget available, expected results, etc. So, the market responds by manufacturing to supply each different demand. We manufacture the most affordable race architecture damper available on the market, with wide adjustability, high-speed capability (2 meters per second), and affordability. Any other design available today that cost significantly less than one set of our remote reservoir double adjustable shocks is a compromise in some area of performance in order to reduce the cost to manufacture.

The Koni is an example of say, a Honda Civic Si engine, spirited performance but very affordable to almost any enthusiast. The cost to own reflects the cost to manufacture. It's a great damper for Ferrari as a manufacturer of a mass produced exotic car that must be profitable for the manufacturer. This brings up one of the more interesting attributes of the damper industry: the vast majority of consumers cannot feel the difference between a shock that cost $40 to manufacture and $800 to build. The auto manufacturers recognize this trend and provide the minimum to manage their costs and profit. Of course there are exceptions all over. Ferrari realized that their market will pay for higher quality damping gladly when first in 1989 they switched to the Bilstein for the 348, then with the computer controlled Bilstein in the F355, on to what is available today. Still, the OEM Ferrari dampers remain a mass produced component that can be improved upon. Even our own proprietary architecture Quad-Tube can certainly be improved, which we are developing right now in the lab. But at what cost will the consumer pay for what benefits? That's why we offer different systems at different price points. Cost vs. performance.

You choose what you desire and can afford or justify the cost of which system: lowering springs, Koni @ $100, Bilstein system @ $1700, or Quad-Tube system @ $3000. And there are certainly other good choices.
Ron R (Ronr)
Junior Member
Username: Ronr

Post Number: 112
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 9:36 pm:   

1) "we will set ride height at our factory", is the ride height based on customer request, stock, everybody lowered by x.xx"...? And also taking the GTB vs. GTS differences in spring rate into account for ride height setting?

2) Is the damping adjustable, if so how adjustable (hi-speed/lo-speed compression/rebound)? I think the Konis are adjustable, never tried it myself.

3) Should the front race spring rate be 325 (shows 225)?

4) How do the damping rates compare to the stock Konis? How much of an effect on ride quality?

5) Any pictures, feedback from other 308 owners with the Bilstein mods?

Sorry for all the questions. This sounds pretty interesting.

Ron
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell

Post Number: 519
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 8:34 pm:   

308 GTB vs 308 GTS PERF. SUSPENSION TUNING
Rob,
The factory runs a slightly longer & more flexable spring in the 308 GTS. Possibly to make up for the less rigid body. For the street/track setup you propose, will the Eibach springs work as well on a 308 GTS, as on a GTB, or should the springs be slightly different?

Are the Bilsteins/Eibachs a coil-over assembly that is a direct bolt-in for the Koni coil-overs?
Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member
Username: Pma1010

Post Number: 112
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 10:38 am:   

Steve Magnusson has sent me specs for front and rear spring perches to lower the car around an inch. It is a replacement for the stock perch.

If people want to contact me via email (philip@ourhouse.com) I will organize a quote on the spring lowering perches, front and rear for the group if there is sufficient interest.
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 194
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 10:16 am:   

The Bilstein / Moriss system will be bolt-on, we will set ride height at our factory, you will only need to bolt the system on.
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 193
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 10:13 am:   

Gentlemen:

Regarding lowering and increasing the sporting abilities of your 308's, here is the information.

We (Moriss Dampers) will not be manufacturing a lowering perch for the Koni 82- series, we will rebuild them and slightly modify them as detailed earlier. We will not be manufacturing a 308 specific spring, the volume cannot justify the investment. Here's the hot set-up:

(Thank you to Rob Lay for allowing this solicitation.)

What you receive is a custom hand-assembled suspension system. We provide the damper valving, this is not "off-the-shelf" anything. We utilize Bilstein components for the foundation due to their favorable volume manufacturing keeping costs reasonable plus Bilstein Motorsport components offer superior quality to any other "mass-produced" street shock. This is a gas charged user rebuildable system. The ultimate shock absorber remains the proprietary Moriss Dampers Quad-Tube double independently-adjustable systems outlined previously. If you are very cost conscious, and can accept compromises vs. our Quad-Tube system, these Bilstein based shocks are the best value-vs.-quality.

Ferrari 308 (STREET/TRACK)
Aluminum threaded body mono-tube Bilstein shock.
Adjustable ride height for 2.5 I.D. race springs.
Teflon lined spherical bearing rod ends with metric standoff bushings.
Micro-cellular bump stop.
Assembled by Moriss to Ferrari 308 (street/track) specification.
$363.41ea. $1,453.65(front/rear)
Eibach ERS race spring
1000.250.0250 (250lbs/in rate, ~25% stiffer than stock) $65.00ea. $130.00 (front)
1000.250.0225 (225lbs/in rate ~12% stiffer than stock) $60.00ea. $120.00 (rear)

Total (less shipping) $1,703.65
$851.83 Deposit


Ferrari 308 (TRACK)
Aluminum threaded body mono-tube Bilstein shock.
Adjustable ride height for 2.5 ID race springs.
Teflon lined spherical bearing rod ends with metric standoff bushings.
Micro-cellular bump stop.
Assembled by Moriss to Ferrari 308 (track) specification.
$363.41ea. $1,453.65(front/rear)
Eibach ERS race spring
1000.250.0325 (250lbs/in rate, ~62% stiffer than stock) $65.00ea. $130.00(front)
1000.250.0300 (300lbs/in rate ~50% stiffer than stock) $65.00ea. $130.00(rear)

Total (less shipping) $1,713.65
$856.83 Deposit
Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member
Username: Tork1966

Post Number: 410
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 10:12 am:   

Paul, did you go with 300 lb. springs all the way around? How much stiffer is the ride now compared to how it was before? What size are your wheels and do your front tires ever rub now? Thanks.
Peter Sedlak (Peters)
New member
Username: Peters

Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 5:42 pm:   

Hell, I had to take the wheels off of my floor jack to get the darn thing under my stock 308! :-)
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 192
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 5:20 pm:   

I'll have more information Monday.

Rob ;)
JPM (John_308qv)
Junior Member
Username: John_308qv

Post Number: 88
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 5:08 pm:   

Count me in! I've been wanting to do this for some time now but have been unable to find a source for the perches. Thanks. John
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: 91tr

Post Number: 1378
Registered: 1-2001
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 2:14 pm:   

Just a reminder that the existing deeper 308 spring perch design is based on the 308 front suspension geometry only. If you also want to lower the rears (i.e., get a set-of-4 rather than the usual set-of-2) shoot me an email for the design differences (but IME/IMO the rear of a 308 is about right or even maybe up a little to get a little forward chassis rake).
Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member
Username: Pma1010

Post Number: 108
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 1:04 pm:   

Rob/Verell, great data, thanks.

Rob, Steve Magnussen did the work up on the perch. Concensus at the time was for a 1'' drop. On sourcing, I have not been able to connect with the source used (they did 4 sets of perches) and obviously if the source still has the machine programming it will be cheaper than starting afresh. If you have a source that can make the part, please quote, otherwise I'll get an estimate. Anyone reading this thread interested in a set. My guess is the cost is $250 - 300 for a set of 4 lowering perches.
Philip
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 191
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 10:29 am:   

Here is the spring info from Verell, thank you much!
Upload

I converted mm/kg to the common in the US LBf/in.

I am waiting on a quote for the springs and waiting on Bilstein volume costs, but I have other information.

Rebuild any 82- series Koni, $100 each. If you want the shocks slightly stiffer, we can do that for no extra charge, slightly stiffer. Next set we receive for rebuild we'll dyno and give you guys comparison data.

Double independently adjustable remote reservoir Moriss shock system is $3,230.00 with bushings and springs. Please go to our web site http://www.morissdampers.com before dismissing this as too expensive. The comparison and benefit information is there. This system is analogous to comparing an F1 engine to a Kia engine. This is for all you guys who want the ultimate compromise car, comfort on the street and F1 handling at the track. This system will be just like the Ohlins that Mark (Me_K) has on his 308.

As many of you have already discovered, a dual purpose car is the most difficult to succeed at from an engineering view. Every component is a compromise.

As Phillip just posted, if someone has already done the homework for the lowered spring perch, I don't want to reinvent the wheel on that. Same for springs to fit the OEM Koni, if someone has a source, already in production, go for it.
stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member
Username: Balataboy

Post Number: 383
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 10:27 am:   

This is good stuff.... I'm in!
Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Junior Member
Username: Pma1010

Post Number: 104
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 9:46 am:   

I don't want to hi-jack this excellent thread, and if someone else is willing to do the work (Rob?), great. But I am also considering revised spring perches to provide a 1'' drop (on the shock) following what Stewart C. and others have done. Someone was kind enough to do the specs and post the drawings - search on spring perch to find. I have a machine shop that does good work and would be willing to have these made up. Given it is a custom set up, piece cost for multiple sets is a lot less than one set, so if there is interest I'll pursue. I am also happy to tag on to Rob's effort if he's going to follow up and be the "order" man!
Thanks
Philip
Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member
Username: Tork1966

Post Number: 407
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 8:56 am:   

FRONT SHOCKS

Type: Koni 82x-1830
S.A. Compression Travel 50 mm
S.A. Return Travel 48 mm
Rating-Expansion 110 kg
Rating-Compression 30 kg
Oil Capacity 0,190 lt
Type of Oil Agip OSO 35

REAR SHOCKS

Type: Koni 82x-1831
S.A. Compression Travel 74 mm
S.A. Return Travel 73 mm
Rating-Expansion 130 kg
Rating-Compression 25 kg
Oil Capacity 0,310 lt
Type of Oil Agip OSO 35
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell

Post Number: 512
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 8:07 am:   

Rob,
I've sent you a .PDF containing the spring specs for 308GT4/GTB/GTS. Didn't have a way of extracting the text or I'd have posted it.
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member
Username: Vwalfa4re

Post Number: 470
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 7:23 am:   

What is the part # for these Bilsteins?
Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member
Username: Tork1966

Post Number: 402
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 7:07 am:   

Please post here as I'm sure many chatteres are interested , as I am.
Henry D. Chin (Hanknum)
Junior Member
Username: Hanknum

Post Number: 64
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Friday, January 31, 2003 - 1:10 am:   

Rob (rexrcr),

Please either post prices here or email me directly on all the options you mention (lowering perches, springs, & Bilsteins).

Thanks

Henry
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 189
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 9:21 pm:   

Street drive and original ride height?, we can rebuild your Koni shocks, that's your best bet. Best bang for the buck, and I'm all about efficiency and affordability.

What gets me going is guys who want to go run like a pro WRC rally car with $150 street shocks. They don't care that they'll change those shocks twice a weekend and the car won't handle well.

Different horses for different courses.

I'll get some pricing break-outs asap. Thanks for all your interest.
Ron R (Ronr)
Junior Member
Username: Ronr

Post Number: 105
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 8:53 pm:   

"upgrade to the Bilstein's. The Bilstein is a superior shock for track driving compared to the Koni. It can be set for street use, not too agressive. Easier to set suspension ride height due to threaded spring collars, easier for us to tune the base valving characteristics, easier for us to convert to user adjustability."

Rexrcr,

What are the details on the Bilstein conversion, compared to the $135 OEM Koni replacements? I don't want it any lower, since I'm a street driver, but my 308's getting a little long in the tooth, and will probably need new shocks/rebuilds before too much longer. If the Bilsteins are more adjustable, damping-wise, and have better damping overall, that might be a good way to go if the price is anywhere close. How about a ballpark price range on the options you mentioned?

Thanks,
Ron
Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member
Username: Sloan83qv

Post Number: 475
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 3:28 pm:   

I lowered mine about 1.5 inches by buying 4 very nice fully ajustable coil over (2.5" spring diameter)shocks with 300lbs springs (your choice of spring) from Butch Hooper at Italian Design. The rears are just bolt in and the fronts require a little metal work on the the upper A-arm with a small die grinder. It still is a great cruiser and much tighter on the track. Call Butch for pricing and availibilty.

Upload
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 187
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 2:03 pm:   

One other benefit to going all the way with the Moriss suspension is we manufacture to customer specification, which means we will decrease the body height of the shock, regaining some of the "lost" suspension bump (upward) travel of lowering ride height.

This how I do 348's for track/race set-up. One option is running a front 348 shock in the rear suspension to regain proper travel with extreme lowering. Of course, the tricky part is revalving the front shock to handle the different weights and characteristics of the rear. I've done this many times, it's slick and affordable.
Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member
Username: Tork1966

Post Number: 400
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 1:50 pm:   

Anyone have a WSM handy? Mine is at home.
JRV (Jrvall)
Member
Username: Jrvall

Post Number: 757
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 1:46 pm:   

another point of reference

http://www.happyisgood.com/perch/quotes.htm
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 185
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 1:33 pm:   

The spring specifications for many Ferrari's are right in the WSM, I have them for TR's.

Perhaps someone can look them up, I can convert their engineering data into more common spring rate information.
Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member
Username: Tork1966

Post Number: 398
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 12:46 pm:   

Rob, Thank you very much for the wealth of information. I would be very interested in a source for a spring with a shorter free length. Does anyone know the exact free length and spring rate on the stock 308 springs?
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 183
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 9:06 am:   

Part of deciding how to properly lower the 308 is the cost to perform the task. The OEM Koni's are relatively inexpensive dampers, $135 each or so. They do not have adjustable lower spring perches like the later Bilstein's on 348's/ 355's 512's, etc. The spring is a "non-standard" size in that typical "race" springs are somewhat smaller in I.D. and do not directly interchange.

So, back to cost, the least expensive way to lower properly is new springs with a slightly higher spring rate and shorter free length. This way you have the properly designed ground-flat ends and the proper metallurgy. Immensely important is to retain the factory roll couple distribution by calculating suspension ride and roll frequency so not to upset the balance of the handling. I've cut and heated springs...when I was a teenager, no more. With the 308 you're looking at a custom wound spring, which someone here probably knows a source for. I personally have not looked for a supplier for this application in a while, I'm sure there may be one. I do know that we can run a batch if the demand is large enough to go into production, say 100 sets. Any takers?

When making this type of modification, lowering static ride height, you also reduce bump travel in the damper. An inch usually makes no practical difference. Though if you also track the car, keeping the suspension factory soft puts you much closer to running on the bump rubbers in certain corners, especially if you go for the sticky tires which make track driving so much more fun. The OEM bump rubbers are (unlike a proper race application) not there to "tune" the suspension. They just protect the suspension from hard bottoming blowing out parts. We just rebuilt a set of Koni's for a 1990 TR with two dead shocks due to bottoming backing out the adjuster and breaking the retaining nut internal to the shock. Fortunately, we were able to repair and all is well. This customer tracks the TR, and recently upgraded to Hoosiers. We set him up with slightly higher damping rates only, he wanted to retain the OEM springs in spite of my recommendations.

My recommendation, other than investing in a production run of 400 custom wound springs, is either a replacement lower spring perch (next cheapest solution), or upgrade to the Bilstein's. The Bilstein is a superior shock for track driving compared to the Koni. It can be set for street use, not too agressive. Easier to set suspension ride height due to threaded spring collars, easier for us to tune the base valving characteristics, easier for us to convert to user adjustability.

Best solution, if you desire total control over your suspension's behavior, is our double independently adjustable, remote reservoir dampers. With a huge range of adjustment, this system gives you the ability to have a nice ride on the street, then easily adjust damping to suit your needs at the track for the day, reset for the drive home. We also have an electronic version which allows adjustments to be made from the driver's seat. This is similar to the F355/360 adjustable systems, just less expensive with no computer. We do have a computer controlled system, not ready for open market. Race only currently.

If there is enough interest, I can work on volume pricing for a specific solution (spring only, lower perch, Bilstein conversion, Bilstein adjustable conversion, and Moriss Dampers Quad-Tube double adjustable system).

Like I stated at the top, I'm sure someone already manufactures either a lowering spring and/or lowering spring collar for the 308 application. I just don't have that information in front of me. Yes, I have seen the lower perch modification in another thread a month or so ago.
Verell Boaen (Verell)
Member
Username: Verell

Post Number: 508
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 7:10 am:   

Didn't I see converting the Konis to adjustable spring perches as an acceptable option for tuning a 308's ride height in a couple of threads last year? I believe a member had his done & posted the results.

Seems like a much more reasonable approach.

Search the archives for prior threads.
stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member
Username: Balataboy

Post Number: 380
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 8:49 pm:   

This issue has been discussed many times and it seems each time it comes up I read with much anticipation waiting for someone to tell me the "best" way to lower my 308, but yet I never seem to get a clear answer. (maybe I'm just not getting it!!)

Anyway - Rob it sounds like you have a strong opinion about this subject so please tell us
(I'll ask here, as it might benefit others who are thinking the same question); what would you suggest for the "boulvard driver" who want's to lower his/her 308 a bit (inch or so) simply for cosmetic improvments?

Thanks in advance & sorry Jerry if I'm jackin' your thread!!
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 170
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 5:13 pm:   

ps, don't cut factory springs. Many reasons why.
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 169
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 5:12 pm:   

Greg is right, most Ferrari's are sprung very soft (a TR's rear wheel rate with dual springs is around 100 lb/in), though compensate with slightly more aggressive damping than the typical car manufacturer. Ferrari (and I) believes this is the best compromise for the wide variety of reasons people purchase a Ferrari.

I don't always make generalizations, but IMO it's safe to say, most every Ferrari's suspension system can be improved upon if you (the owner) are willing to sacrifice one facet of performance for another. If you love track days, and rarely boulevard cruise, big improvements can be made. Depending on which model, better compromise settings exist for combination street/track.

If you're the average owner, stay with the factory equipment. If you're interested in improvements, send me an email, tell me what you're looking to improve, and I'll give you an option or suggestion.
Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member
Username: Tork1966

Post Number: 397
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 4:15 pm:   

I am more than willing to purchase new springs, but this local shop made it sound so easy to just hack them. I'll check with True Choice. Thanks guys.
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: 91tr

Post Number: 1374
Registered: 1-2001
Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 1:07 pm:   

Jerry -- The 308 spring ends are squared and ground (to match the corresponding flat surfaces they contact on the Koni) so simple cutting isn't a great option IMO -- unlike cars using springs with an unfinished end (i.e., the natural helix shape) where the end shape of the spring is not changed by cutting so it still fits the mount well after cutting -- perhaps the alignment shop wasn't aware of this design difference.
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member
Username: Joechristmas

Post Number: 650
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 12:44 pm:   

Jerry is it possible to go with a different type of spring that would already be the correct size? I always thought that the 308 seemed to have springs close to a Lincoln. Anyway, I just thought that maybe getting a set of new springs maybe better. Then if you want to go back to stock you can always put the stock springs back on.
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Intermediate Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 1604
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 12:42 pm:   

CUT THE SPRING?? It's not a honda. Drop some cash and get new ones. Buy cutting the springs, you are not only endangering your life, but the lives of those around you.
Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member
Username: Tork1966

Post Number: 396
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 12:37 pm:   

Yes I know this has been discussed, but I currently have my springs off and am wondering if I can just reduce the spring length (to lower the ride height) by simply cutting half a coil off each of the 4 springs? This is the advice given me by a local spring and alignment center. Would I need to cut more off the fronts since there is less weight on them in order to get the car to sit level? I asked True Choice and they quoted me $125.00 per corner to cut the springs. What do they do to the springs other than taking a chop saw to them? Any help will of course be greatly appreciated! Jerry

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