348 hot start, problem?? Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

FerrariChat.com » Technical Q&A Archives » Archive through July 15, 2003 » 348 hot start, problem?? « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through June 03, 2003Vincent75 6-03-03  12:35 am
  ClosedClosed: New threads not accepted on this page        

Author Message
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
Junior Member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 63
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 9:54 am:   

Just for the record,

After repacking the FW my hot start problem really seems to be gone the engine seems to have less problems to turn around and starts just as good as it is cold.

Luuk

Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member
Username: Miltonian

Post Number: 431
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:27 am:   

Thank you, glad I could help!

Just want to mention, in case anyone is confused, that we are talking about two separate problems here:

1) The engine cranks over fine, but does not want to start. This is the flywheel issue discussed in detail on this thread.

2) The engine does not want to crank over at all, independent of temperature. This is the problem that I "corrected" with the new starter button.
todd montandon (Sllade)
Junior Member
Username: Sllade

Post Number: 59
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:09 am:   

jeff told me how to fix my sensor problem my seatbelt lights is there anything he doesn't know?
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 804
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:02 am:   

he sure is.
todd montandon (Sllade)
Junior Member
Username: Sllade

Post Number: 56
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:00 am:   

damn that jeff is the shi-
Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member
Username: Miltonian

Post Number: 430
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 1:51 am:   

Hi, guys: This is the starter button that I installed in my 348 in place of the cigarette lighter. It's a heavy-duty, high amperage switch from a hotrod shop. It fit exactly into the opening vacated by the lighter. It has a rubber pushbutton cover that says "PUSH" on it.

Whenever the engine fails to crank over with the key (about 50% of the time), I just pop open the ashtray lid and start the car with the button. It has a 100% success rate. All I had to do was route some 12gauge wires from the battery terminal on the starter, to the new pushbutton switch, then back to the start signal wire next to the solenoid. It gives the same effect as bridging the terminals on the starter with a screwdriver. Easier and cheaper than actually fixing the problem. The new pushbutton switch was about $10, if I remember correctly. Upload
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 803
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 1:28 am:   

JRK,

Sorry, I haven't done it myself. My problem seems to have been solved by repacking the FW.

Vincent.
J R K (Kenyon)
Member
Username: Kenyon

Post Number: 489
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 1:04 am:   

Vincent,

Have you any pictures of your starter mod. Most interesting to look it if possible.
Thanks...
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 792
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 7:37 pm:   

Rob,

Earlier in this thread, Jeff B. (who had a similar problem) solved this by direct wiring to the starter via a starter button. Which, if I remember correctly, he very ingenuously placed where the cigarette lighter is. You still need the ignition to be on, but the starter turns over with this direct power feed.

Vincent.
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 5540
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 4:01 pm:   

Just talked to James and he says most of the time as we were talking about, it's a drop in voltage between the ignition switch and starter. The fix is either find where it's getting resistance or to tie in a relay so it always gets full power.

Car started fine all day yesterday, but temp was down a few degrees from 95.
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member
Username: Euro308guy

Post Number: 393
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 - 8:57 am:   

Rob,
This is the problem that I found to be the case. Just exactly as Mike explained. I'll add something though: The load increase normally reaches the limits in the PLUGS first. That's right, any sensor plugs or other ignition system plugs triggering the system to spark or provide info to your ECU's to trigger the spark. I solved my LONG STANDING hot start problem by ENDLESS diagnostics and found a bad plug connection from my cam position sensor and the wiring harness that transmitted the signal to the MoTeC. Obviously this won't be the case with your non- MoTeC 328, but I'd check all plugs first. You can do this easily by running a temporary ciruit from point to point, one at a time and leaving it unplugged. Then wait for the car to act up. When it is not starting, hook up your pre-placed wires to the suspecting bad circuit. If the car starts. WALA! If the car still fails to start, suspect another circuit. I'd start by checking resistence and voltage during problem starts, with my digital multimeter. Let me know what you discover and GOOD LUCK. You have my home #.
Jeff
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 5526
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 1:26 pm:   

Just talked to Mike at Norwoods and James will call me later, but they say a common problem is when the wires are hot it changes the load. They fix that by changing the relay. Not sure if that's the problem I have, but I'll keep everyone updated.

All I know is that after 2+ hours of cooling down it starts again. When warm, 1st gear and having the rear bonnet open helps it start. The 1st gear could be related to the flywheel, but the bonnet sounds like it would be more related to vapor lock or hot wiring.
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member
Username: Airbarton

Post Number: 663
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 8:03 am:   

Luuk, the T/O bearing can be purchased seperately but make sure you get the type that fits your housing. Ferrari came out with an updated version of the whole assymbly that is like the one in the 355. My understanding is that they are not interchangable.
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 44
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 1:56 am:   

Thanks J R K,

Iím wandering is the TO bearing replaceable or do I have to order a complete set with the house on it ?

I took the car for a ride and it runs just fine no hot start problem sofar.

Luuk
J R K (Kenyon)
Member
Username: Kenyon

Post Number: 478
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 12:57 am:   

Luuk,
Yours is a double clutch.
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 764
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 4:14 pm:   

Rob,

Apparently the hot start problem on the 348 is often related to the phase sensor. The problem either being caused by excessive vibartion from the FW, or a poor connection from the phase sensor.

The other issue we have looked into is a possible loss of fuel pressure in the hot fuel lines after shutdown. Most likely due to a bad check valve.

Note, I have yet to experience any hot start problems since I repacked my FW.
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member
Username: Euro308guy

Post Number: 384
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 2:45 pm:   

Rob,
I'd first suggest to look for a poor connection somewhere. I've fixed many problems this way. I normally start at the fuse panel and look for signs of corrosion. After that, I'd check connections betweeen ignition components and the wiring harness at the plugs. Best of luck and let me know what you find out.
Jeff
Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member
Username: Miltonian

Post Number: 417
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 1:00 pm:   

Rob: I don't have any personal experience with the 328, but I think that the 348 was the first Ferrari to use the "Voith bi-mass flywheel" that is being dissected in this thread. There have been many 348 owners, myself included, who have had their hot start problems directly caused by the flywheel, but on the 328 I think you have to look elsewhere (fuel pressure?).
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 5492
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 7:45 am:   

I need someone that's been following this entire thread to give a little summary.

Thursday with the temps here in Texas up above 95 degrees the hot start problem returned in my 328. Doesn't matter if it's 85 or 90 degrees, but above about 95 degrees air temp and using the A/C I will have the hot start problem.

I would have the problem at lower temps, but starting in first gear and leaving the rear bonnet open will allow it to start. However, like Thursday, you would have to let it cool 2+ hours before it would start again.

What are all the final list of possible root causes? I'm hearing alot about the Fw/clutch?
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 43
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 5:06 am:   

My 348 TB was made 1990, I donít know if the clutch is a singe or dual plate if have some pictureís of the complete clutch but they are not so clear so I wouldnít no if you can see on them watt it is, Iíll be gone this weekend so next week I will remove the clutch again to see in what shape the bearing is,

Thanks for your input so far,

Luuk

Upload
Upload
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 763
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 11:50 am:   

Luuk here is a pic of the TO seen from the side. There is a bearing with a raised and beveled inner race. It sits inside this cast housing. You can see the inner race of the bearing on the left side of the housing.

Upload
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 762
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 11:47 am:   

Luuk,

you're right about the plastic pieces, but the FW are the same. Mine does not have plastic pieces.

Here is a picture of the trow out bearing and a picture of the end of the clutch which faces it. The TO bearing presses on those fingers in the center in order ot release the pressure plates.

To change the TO you need to remove your clutch again. It is rather pricey at around $700. I checked mine while I had the clutch out and it spun fine, so I left it in. I also believe there was a TO bearing upgrade. The old TO was in a black casting, the new one is in a blue casting. If you look through one of the side holes in the clutch housing and shine a flashlight in there, with the car off, you should be able to see the TO bearing (though not well) and if you have someoone press on the clutch pedal you will see it move towards the clutch and back upon release.


What year 348 do you have? Is is a single or dual plate clutch?

Upload
Upload

Vincent.
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 42
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 9:52 am:   

Vincent ,

If you look closer it seems to me that there is a different between our FWís the plastic parts of yours are smaller and only holding the large springs on one side, and the spider looking parts have something at the edges like plastic or rubber on them.

The rattling is only occurring after a few minutes when I start the engine so not right away.
I am wandering is the FW turning around when I hold the clutch down or doesnít that make any different and is it turning always, if that is so maybe something else is causing the rattling and is J.R.K. right and do I have to take a look at my Clutch thrust bearing, some help here would be very welcome because I donít know where to find this bearing .It seems the rattling is only occurring with no throttle (1100 RPM) when I push it a little (1200 RPM) the rattling is gone, regardless of the position from the clutch.


Upload

Upload


Luuk
J R K (Kenyon)
Member
Username: Kenyon

Post Number: 476
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 12:39 am:   

Luuk,
Tha noise you talk about, which goes away after you put the clutch down is the Clutch thrust bearing, its got play in it. I have had this noise on several cars in the past. I have needed to replace the thrust bearing and noise has gone.
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 759
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 1:54 pm:   

Luuk,

If you look closely I think they are the same. You are noticing a difference because of the shadow being cast by the light behind the FW. Notice the shadows coming off the plastic pieces on the springs. Our FW look similar. Do you have a dual plate clutch?

Vincent.
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 41
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 12:06 pm:   

Vincent,

It looks like your FW is a little bit different as mine because there is a plastic top on the outer end of the spider looking metal and so yours must be in one piece. Mine has two plates and no plastic top on them, or me bay mineís should have the plastic top but because it has run bad they totally disappeared and thatís the reason what is causing the rattling. Also the plastic that holds the large springs on their place looks different then mine.

Some pictures to explain,

Upload

Upload

Luuk
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 758
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 10:17 am:   

Luuk,

post a picture of it reassembled so we can see inside.

Vincent.
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 7:11 am:   

Vincent ,

Iím pist of it isnít working as I hoped for when the engine runs stationary I still hear a rattle in fact it seems to be worse then before after I put the clutch down the rateling is gone, I think I might need a new FW after all. Or maybe the parts arenít at their place as they should be Iíll think I have to take it apart again and check if everything is ok. FÖ.

The clutch assembly slide into place after I had lifted one of the wheels, put it in gear and turned the wheel around a bit so it could find the right position that was no problem at all.

Disappointed Luuk
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 757
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 1:50 am:   

Luuk,

Great, can't wait to hear how it works out for you. Did the clutch assembly just slide into place no problem, or was it a bit of a struggle?

Vincent.
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 1:44 am:   

It's a complete car again everything went fine can't wait to try it, but it's raining for two days now. When the weather cleared up Iíll take it for a ride.

Luuk

Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 746
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 1:39 pm:   

Luuk,

We're on the same page. I was asking about the small metal pieces that hold the orings.

Vincent.
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 38
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 4:18 am:   

Vincent,

Excuse me for my crappy English, but what do you mean with "washers".
The o-rings and the small metal pieces should be here today or tomorrow.

Luuk
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 735
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 1:51 am:   

Luuk,

All those parts look ok. When are you getting the washers back?
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 37
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:22 am:   

More pictures,

Upload
Upload
Upload


Luuk
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 36
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 10:23 am:   

Billy bob,

I think the problem started when the large o-ring broke and all the grease came out, the FW went dry and the metal plates ho where holding the inner ring (watt is sliding across them) started to go bad. The plastic parts seem ok by me and all the other parts to. I will post some pictures of them tomorrow.

Luuk

billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member
Username: Fatbillybob

Post Number: 290
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 9:58 am:   

on Luk's car the problem is not a grease problem. The problem is the lock ring from the spider looking thing that holds the springs to the bumpy hub looking thing has broken. This allowed more twisting than designed i.e. trashing parts. You need new lock rings, cover plate, spider thingy, and outer spacers. I can't see the condition of springs or plastic parts.
steve coleby (Ferraridriver)
Junior Member
Username: Ferraridriver

Post Number: 62
Registered: 6-2003
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 7:44 am:   

I have this problem every now and again with my Mondial T. I had a relay fitted so the starter gets full voltage from the battery. This has helped a little. It has skipped once when warm and not started very well. So it is the flywheel that may be the problem. I will try the, in 1st gear and put the clutch down and try starting her method.
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 35
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 2:19 am:   

The metal pieces with springs between them seem to be ok. O-ringís and the metal plates are being made next week (should be here Wednesday).
I also have received the grease so Iíll hope I will be on the road end next week.

All I can do is give it a try and save me the 1900 euros ,

Luuk


Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member
Username: Miltonian

Post Number: 392
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 10:56 pm:   

Hard to say, but this flywheel looks like "toast" to me. I would think that it is still going to rattle when reassembled, but it may cure the hot start problem, at least temporarily.

It would be interesting to use this as an experiment in attempting to make a "solid" 348 flywheel, by balancing it and pinning the hub in place, without the springs/shoes/etc. It would be a lot of effort wasted if it didn't work, but considering the cost of a new flywheel.....

Glad yours is still starting well, Vincent!
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 708
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 2:38 pm:   

THose small plates you reffered to with a yellow arrow were fine. I don't think they do much other than provide a positive seal between the Flywheel housing and O-rings. I would think that if they are flat they should still accomplish their job irregardless of some scratches.



Vincent
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 707
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 2:35 pm:   

Luuk,

Apart from the scratches, it doesnt look too bad to me. Keep in mind I haven't seen many of these.

My inner flywheel damper (not sure of term for part which holds springs and plastic pieces) had no clearance problems within its housing, and when all pieces are in place it does not completely revolve around. How did you get those circular scratches? Are the metal pieces with springs between them on either edge broken, or missing? I wouldn't think those scratches would be a factor once you have everything greased up and put back together.

Anyone else?

Vincent.
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 34
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:26 pm:   

Some pictures to compare,

Upload

Upload

Upload


Luuk
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:00 pm:   

Vincent,

I have seen your before/after pictures but I canít see if your plates are ok because the damage is done on the backside of them. It looks like yours are just fine and that you caught it in time and that Iím a bit late.

Upload
Upload

Thanks for your input,

Luuk
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 706
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:56 am:   

Luuk,

if you look earlier in the thread there are pictures of my FW before and after a good cleaning. They looked fine. You will also find a picture with the new grease, old grease, and how the springs and plastic pieces are laid out.
Post a picture of yours after the cleaning and I can compare it to mine.

Vincent.
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 32
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 5:45 am:   

Vincent,

In what shape where the metal plates of your FW in just as bad are where they ok ?

Luuk
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 693
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 4:35 pm:   

Luuk,

Keep us posted. Definitely looks like your FW needs a little TLC.

Vincent.
Luuk Uiterwijk (Luuk__annet)
New member
Username: Luuk__annet

Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 1:43 pm:   

Hello,

After reading this post I decided to do the FW job on my 348 to mostly because I heard a rattling after shutting down the engine and also having a poor hot start.

When I took the FW of I saw it had to be don much earlier because some parts where broken and al the grease in the FW was almost gone. The 2 pieces ho where holding the FW together is sealed with a large o-ring that was broken so all the grease came out there. After cleaning the last bits of grease I saw that the small plates that was holding de metal parts at their place where almost gone so that must be the cause of the rattling. The grease good be ordered by the local Ferrari dealer but the single parts could not be ordered because they could only deliver a complete FW. Almost 1900 euros made it worth it to try and fix it by my self. It was not to hard to take the FW apart and I donít think it will be a problem to put it back together again.

Some picture will explain the shape the FW was in,
Upload
Upload
Upload
Upload








Thank you all to get me started,
I hope this will work out and I will be back when itís all put together again.

Luuk




Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 679
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 7:32 pm:   

Three more hot starts today, no problem. I am getting some chatter in first coming off the line, but I've been told that due to clutch break in?

V
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 669
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 12:18 am:   

Jeff B.

I am convinced that the rattle is exhaust related. Perhaps the outside covering is resonating at a certain rpm. I beat on it with a rubber mallet and could reproduce some of the noise. But it's nothing big. There is a low rattle but it is definitely is not engine related, most likely just need to tighten up the exhaust a little more, I hear this when going over bumbs. Neither are a big deal, just looking for more things to do.

Now for some driving and clutch seating.

Vincent.
Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member
Username: Miltonian

Post Number: 374
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 11:23 pm:   

Vincent: Great to hear that it's all back together and working well! Your experiences and pictures will be a valuable source of information for others attempting this job.

What about the rattles? Flywheel? Exhaust? Other?
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 668
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 10:21 pm:   

Well,


Put it back together, and it works! It took a little longer to put back together. Went out for 35 miles, easy on the clutch but spirited, got the car good and hot. Went to Safeway for some dogfood. Came out five minutes later, started right up. :-)

The new clutch is grabby, and i need to break it in, but what a difference. Pedal travel is now easier, shorter, and very positive! Still engages and disengages at top of travel, I don't need to push the pedal in very far at all to disengage/engage.

Jeff B.,

It feels awesome (to have done it on my own, well with a little help from you and others)! Thank You.

Vincent.
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 647
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 10:09 pm:   

It's here,

My rebuilt clutch and FW are back, safe and sound on my garage bench. I should be back on the road Sat. for a test drive and hot start. Will post info following.

Jeff,

I haven't had the time to take a closer look but if this doesn't do it, you bet I'll be in there looking for that connector.

Vincent.
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member
Username: Euro308guy

Post Number: 378
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:41 pm:   

has anyone else replaced their plug pins? I've been through over a dozen heat cycles now; no start problem.
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member
Username: Euro308guy

Post Number: 376
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 7:14 am:   

I actually have a friend that was out in California and knew some obscure warehouse that had the female pins for this plug. I have no idea, (but I am suspect), that these plugs are available from an auto eletronics shop. I just sniped the female side of the plug off, (after making note of the wire position) and r&r'd the female pins. I've been through 2 more heat cycles now with no start problems whatsoever. I'll gain more confidence that this is the fix after a month of so. We shall see. I'd recommend every 348 woner check this plug.
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 592
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 9:02 pm:   

Wow!!

Where have I been? :-)

Jeff,

Thanks for the pic I'll have to check it out on my own car. When you rewired the plug, what was the procedure, or is it fairly self evident?

Charles,

I'm glad to hear the FoA alluded to the flywheel grease problem we've been trying to solve. The mechanic I talked to at FoSF didn't think that the FW could be the problem. He thought most likely it was fuel related. But then again he didn't see the inside of my FW.

BTW. I'm hoping to be back on the road Thurs., maybe even Wed. night. Clutch and FW should be in tomorrow (I hope).

Thanks for the great posts everyone!!

Vincent.
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member
Username: Euro308guy

Post Number: 373
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 12:16 pm:   

How about everyone who is experiencing this problem re-wire this plug and see if the problem stops, universally. If it does, well then, we have something! If not, it was the cause of my problem, and mine only. I'll let you all know if it returns.
Paul Hill (348paul)
Member
Username: 348paul

Post Number: 292
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 11:31 am:   

Great stuff! - This is what its all about!


Jeff,

That pipe doesnít look stock!! :-) :-) -

Great to hear that it look like we are finally getting to the bottom of this problem!


Paul
J R K (Kenyon)
Member
Username: Kenyon

Post Number: 392
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 10:14 am:   

I would love to do it, sadley I live in the UK.
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member
Username: Airbarton

Post Number: 650
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 9:40 am:   

Great! I'll try to find out who else wants to attend and set it up. He did a similar seminar for a group of 360 guys. He put together a great book for them filled with technical info on the car and handed out copies to everyone. He said he would do the same for us if we get enough interested people. I'll keep you posted.
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member
Username: Euro308guy

Post Number: 372
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 9:28 am:   

Charles,
Great post! I am aware of the crank trigger sensor to which you refer. I've been all over this. There is some evidence to the validity of this expanation. I'd love to be there when he comes over. BTW- Since my twin turbo car is Motec controlled, it does work ever so slightly different. My crank trigger wheel only has one sensor! I am familiar with the timing sequence of the crank trigger gap and the hall effect cam sensor to establish TDC of #1 cylinder. You gave a fine explanation. As I stated, this MIGHT be the culprit, or maybe it is JUST on my problem. I do need to state though, this is the first time since the weather got hot that I've had this many successful hot starts in a row with no problems at all. All disclaimers apply. Lets all follow the thread to a sound conclusion for the group.
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member
Username: Euro308guy

Post Number: 371
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 9:21 am:   

OK,
I loaded up my digital camera for you and went to the garage.
Here's a pic of the offending plug:

Upload
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member
Username: Airbarton

Post Number: 648
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 9:11 am:   

Jeff, thanks for that. I would like to add though that I just had a long chat with one of my bud's down at FOA. My engine was still out so while I had the chance I asked him to show me how this whole thing works. As it turns out there is a small wheel attached to the other end of the crankshaft that looks like a harmonic balancer. It is on the front of the engine where you can't see it. It has a bunch of teeth around the edge with one spot that is notched out. There are two sensors adjacent to this wheel that help the Motronic unit sense where TDC is. According to my friend, the Motronic compares the signal it gets from these two sensors against the ones on the camshafts so they are both needed for proper ignition. He also explained how this hot start problem works. He said the lack of grease in the flywheel causes vibrations that are transmitted through the crank to the little wheel I just mentioned. The vibrations effect the two sensors I mentioned which in turn throws the Motronic off. I am on my way down there again today so I will try to get some pictures of the front of the engine so you can see what I am refering to. If any of this has been explained before or if my explaination is poor, please excuse me. I am only trying to relate my experience as best I can. BTW my friend said he would be happy to do a question and answer session at my house complete with factory documentation if anyone was interested. He said he would cover any topic on the 348.
J R K (Kenyon)
Member
Username: Kenyon

Post Number: 389
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 9:00 am:   

I have looked ansd stil not sure if I have the right one. Sorry - photo pleaseeeeeeee!!!!!!!
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member
Username: Euro308guy

Post Number: 369
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 7:53 am:   

the plug is directly below the cam position sensor located on the aft end of the right side intake cam. You'll need to look BELOW the housing to see it. When cold, you should easily be able to reach down there and grab it, no problem. Give it a try and if you still can't find it, let me know and I'll snap a photo.
Jeff
J R K (Kenyon)
Member
Username: Kenyon

Post Number: 386
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 7:07 am:   

Jeff.

I am not sure which plug you mean. Please send photo are some more instructions. Thanks. A few mechanics I have spoken to have their doubts about the grease causing vibration... Touch wood I have not had this problem...
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member
Username: Euro308guy

Post Number: 367
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 6:58 am:   

ok possibly a new developement here.
I received a sugguestion from a good friend of mine who is not only a certified master mechanic, but also holds an airframe and powerplant certification about my hot start problem. He is quite smart really.
Shad, (that's his name), stopped by to browse the problem with me. I explained the clutch theory to him and he expressed his doubts about this but said that the additional vibration could be aggrivating the situation, but to him, not likely the sole cause. We had just started tracing the harness in a reverse fashion when we found something:
The PLUG between the harness and the cam position hall effect type sensor. This plug, (on the harness side) had the female pins spread to an unacceptable limit. He demonstrated the test. He guessed that this COULD be the cause, based on two aggrivating conditions:
1. When hot resistence increases, over an already poor connection, could cause an unacceptable signal to the motec, (or in other cases the factory ecu's).
2. Perhaps the additional vibration from a "drier" than specified clutch, caused this connection to inhibit an acceptable signal to the ecu's.
We rebuilt the plug with new pins. I've been through about 8 heat cycles now with NO PROBLEMS at all! This doesn't mean it's fixed, but I'll post the group in a month or so to let you know if this was it.
I'd suggest all 348 owners check the gap in these female pins. If you can see any gap at all, I'd replace the plug.
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member
Username: Airbarton

Post Number: 642
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 9:54 am:   

Billy, if I misunderstood you fine I can accept that. The guys down at FOA were not trying to razzle dazzle me as you put it, they were trying to help me out. The reason I flipped you off is because it sounded like you were trying to say I did not know what I was talking about. That may actually be true. I am sure you have a much greater knowledge of these cars than I do but certainly the methods I described were not going to harm anyone. Even if your methods are superior why try to discredit mine, it serves no purpose. Instead of trying to make me look stupid you could have just acknowledge that those methods would work and offer an alternative. All I was trying to do was share my personal experience with a fellow F-car owner. Because it is possible that I misread you, I will appologise for flipping you off. BTW I also think it is a good idea to dispell the myths about these cars. That is why I am doing everything I can to learn as much as possible about them.
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 572
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Friday, June 13, 2003 - 12:07 am:   

This thread is making me ask a lot of questions about the 348: What is the hydraulic pressure exerted by the clutch pedal on the throwout bearing?

Thanks

vincent
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member
Username: Fatbillybob

Post Number: 287
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 11:59 pm:   

Charles,

Email is a crappy medium. Re-read my post. There is no slam on you. I called you no names but thanks for flipping me off. The facts stand. What readers really need to know is that Ferraris are not mystical beasts for FNA to tame but simple machines. FOA basically tried to impress you with razzle dazzle. I just popped the ballon and told all the readers some secrets for free. So I am an ass for doing that? Sorry to hurt your feelings.
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 570
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 11:55 pm:   

Jeff,

Good question. It's confusing me as well. But assuming only some of the grease does creep down, perhaps when it cools the increased viscosity of what is remaining on the upper springs in enough to dampen. This also explains why I don't have this problem on a quick hot restart, since the grease hasn't had time to creep down. But it's just a theory, of course assuming that you have fuel pressure.

Has anyone taken the temperature of a flywheel right after a good run? Does anybody know the apparently unique special Modena Flywheel Elixir aka Kluber grease. Where does this stuff come from? I use a lot of different types of greases in many different applications, and I've never heard of a grease like this.



Vincent.
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member
Username: Airbarton

Post Number: 640
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 9:25 am:   

Vince, I think I pumped it up to about 15psi or so.
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member
Username: Airbarton

Post Number: 639
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 9:22 am:   

Wow Billy Bob I don't understand why you are slamming me like that! I have never claimed to be an expert on these cars, infact I am a novice at best. I was simply trying to help out a fellow Ferrari owner. I never said these things could not be done in other ways. My lack of knowledge on the car is the very reason I consult the guys down at FOA. They have been a tremendous help to me and have allowed me to use these tools. I think you should take your over inflated sense of self importance and stick it were the sun don't shine! Upload
Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member
Username: Euro308guy

Post Number: 364
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 6:03 am:   

I am lurking here; watching the thread.
I've spoken with Tilton, they seem very knowledgeable. The application would require a custom flywheel to use their carbon clutch discs. They can provide the custom flywheel.
I look forward to hearing the end of this thread.
I STILL don't understand WHY after the grease viscosity changes, do you get accessive vibration, due to it seeping to the bottom of the flywheel when hot. This seems logical, but when it cools, does it "creep" back up the flywheel? Can someone explain to me this?
billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member
Username: Fatbillybob

Post Number: 285
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 11:55 pm:   

Charles wrote,

"" The guys down @ FOA had a neat little tool made just for that purpose. It attaches to the 4 studs on the back of the housing and requires only a box wrench to remove the flywheel.""

FWIW, This is a waste of time. They have air tools it is faster to blast the nut off with the impact gun. You don't even have to hold the FW. I don't know why anyone would use such a tool.

""They also have another tool for replacing the output shaft seals which slides over the shaft allowing you to put each seal on from back to front.""

Try a piece of thin copper pipe. I forget the size but thats what I use.

"" bleeding the clutch master is much easier if you can get a positive pressure system. I used one that the guys down at FOA fabricated themselves out of a radiator pressure tester they attached an old filler cap to, it worked great""

You don't need this tool either. If you lift the rear of teh car on your jacks about 1 ft off the ground ,then bleed, all the air comes out just fine.

Don't let them fool you into thinking you need special tools.

Also you are comparing an old dual disc to new single disc? Anyway I have driven both and personally go with multidiscs. That's what racers do too.

Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 558
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 8:36 pm:   

Thanks Charles, good to hear your problems went away.

I dropped the FW out by using the appropriate size punch to tape out the flywheel and left the bearing in the housing. I protected the FW by folding up a piece of paper and setting the punch on top of that. Worked great.

I'll see if I can make something similar for some positive pressure. How much pressure are we talking about? +/- 10 psi is that enough or too much?

Vincent.
Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member
Username: Airbarton

Post Number: 617
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 12:45 pm:   

I heard a lot of confussion about removing the flywheel from the housing. It can be done without a press. I just got finished doing a complete clutch and flywheel swap on my 348. The guys down @ FOA had a neat little tool made just for that purpose. It attaches to the 4 studs on the back of the housing and requires only a box wrench to remove the flywheel. They also have another tool for replacing the output shaft seals which slides over the shaft allowing you to put each seal on from back to front. I had this same hot start issue before I replaced the clutch and flywheel. The problem has since gone away. One other note. bleeding the clutch master is much easier if you can get a positive pressure system. I used one that the guys down at FOA fabricated themselves out of a radiator pressure tester they attached an old filler cap to, it worked great. BTW now that I have driven the car with the dual disc and the single disc, I can say without reservation that the single disc is way better. It was well worth the investment.
Vincent (Vincent348)
Member
Username: Vincent348

Post Number: 553
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 12:24 am:   

Well, getting the clutch and Fly wheel assembly back on Thurs. of Fri. The clutch has been relined with carbon Kevlar and the springs have all been replaced.

I'll let you know what happens.

Once again, thanks everybody.

Vincent.
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 630
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 7:29 am:   


quote:

I have know idea why Ferrari changes the amount of grease


According to FNA technical, increased volume improved the vibration damping characteristics.

Jeff,

Call Mike at Tilton and discuss what your needs are. Tilton is great to work with. I posted contact info in a new thread.
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member
Username: Rexrcr

Post Number: 629
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 7:24 am:   

I think I may have posted this information before.

Here are the PN's for 348 o-rings and seals for the clutch:

Quan PN
3 137249
1 143178
1 144989
1 139438
2 121813
1 131651
1 101044

T.O. bearing is 132979

I have determined by experimentation that 230 grams (latest specification) of flywheel grease is equivalent to 262 ml volume.
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member
Username: Dapper

Post Number: 700
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 4:28 am:   

Nice job Vincent, you are great encouragement to those of us who have yet to get into any 'real' mechanical work on our F cars.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration