| Author | Message | ||
| Jonathan (Birdman)
Junior Member Username: Birdman Post Number: 111 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hi Tom, It was great meeting you down there at BSC the other day. Seems like there is almost always an FChatter there from what I hear! Did you get your 328 finished that day? Well, the guys at BSC seem great and they come highly recommended...I just wanted to be sure it wasn't going to be one of those "You spent HOW much for WHAT?" after the work was done! Now I have looked into this and I'm confident that everything is reasonable, more importantly my wife is satisfied that we aren't getting hosed. (Remember, the $$ had to be approved by her!) I have no doubts of their technical expertise. Let's just say that I'll be driving the car gently on the clutch when I get it back! Jonathan | ||
| Alan Ing (Alan)
New member Username: Alan Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2002 |
As an alternative to a new flywheel for a 308, if you are adventurous, you can have a custom aluminum flywheel made up with a replaceable insert that uses a stock clutch. I have not done business with these guys before, but I did talk to them. They can make a 12 pound or 9 pound flywheel if you send in your old one (They need to reuse your ring gear). I think the last time I checked, they were charging $650 or so. Their website is www.paeco.com/fly1.html . I didn't use them because I went with Mueller Fabricators (Now defunct company) because they also offered to make me a custom dual disc clutch set up with an aluminum clutch cover. Came out pretty nice but its been a few years and I have yet to install it. Mueller Fabricators products were used in all sorts of imports and were in many magazine articles. Anyway, I just thought that for less than the cost of a new flywheel you could have a custom built aluminum one with a wearable insert. I forgot, they also seem to have reasonable prices for rebuilding 308 motors and will even offset weld to increase the stroke. Again, I have no experience other than ordering their catalog. You guys might want to check them out. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1035 Registered: 8-2001 |
Newman: I would agree with you......just did my Boxer clutch, with re-surfacing the flywheel. The MINIMUM thickness should STILL be within the range of being able to see the marks. I think this is an example of an owner that couldn't afford to replace the flywheel, when needed......hence, he just kept grinding away......to a VERY unsafe condition. | ||
| Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1231 Registered: 12-2001 |
Gerrit, what is happening is the amount of material removed over time from many resurfacing passes makes the flywheel so thin the numbers and marks have no edge to be stamped on. The surface is getting closer and closer to the ring gear eliminating the edge with the marks. | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member Username: Verell Post Number: 1043 Registered: 5-2001 |
JWise, I'll help if I can, caveat: I've done many a clutch, but have NOT done an 3x8 clutch. I have the ring nut tool if you need it. Also have shop & parts manuals for reference. I'll eMAIL you phone #s & times. | ||
| Gerrit Visser (Gerritv)
Junior Member Username: Gerritv Post Number: 206 Registered: 6-2001 |
Hi A picture to illustrate what I meant by 'timing marks on the outside'. I can't imagine a reason to machine this to resurface a flywheel for clutch repairs.  | ||
| Thomas Saupe (Tom_s)
Junior Member Username: Tom_s Post Number: 59 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jonathan, Just my 2 cents. I was at BSC when you brought your car in. If I remember our conversation, you said you had no repair history on the car when you bought it. If that's the case, who knows what work was done and by whom. It's perfectly feasable that it has had several clutches in it by now. I had a clutch put in my GT4 (work done at BSC) around 31000 miles and if memory seves me, it was the second replacement, and the car certainly hadn't been abused. That's the same engine and running gear as your car. For what it's worth, I have complete trust and confidence in BSC. They have serviced both my cars over the past few years. I've never felt taken advantage of or ever had second thoughts regarding any repair bill I have received from them. I truly think you are in good hands. Personally, I'd be reticent to let any one else work on my cars. Good Luck, hope to see that GTB back on the road soon. Tom | ||
| Jonathan (Birdman)
Junior Member Username: Birdman Post Number: 110 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hi Everyone, I'm glad this has stirred up a lively discussion. I just got off the phone with BSC and they gave me the estimate ($2,600) to do the clutch and flywheel. They are giving me a small break on the labor and the parts to help keep the whole thing a little more affordable and I certainly appreciate it. Granted, I was planning on a $500 do-it-myself clutch job, but once you throw a flywheel into the mix, etc. I don't think this is an unreasonable price. I was really looking forward to doing it myself to learn more about the car, but my wife didn't want me doing that until fall, so unless I wanted the car sitting in the garage for the whole summer, it was pay to play! Interestingly, in order to meet my low-budget requirement, they ordered an aftermarket flywheel that they will have to add the timing marks to. They couldn't find a decent used one and I couldn't afford a Ferrari brand spankin new flywheel. Well, I'll let you know how it works out. Oh yeah, and this is still without the TUNE UP that I went there for in the first place. (Uuuughhhh!) Verell, when I go down to pick the car up, maybe you can drive me! You can meet all the dudes down there and we can drive back together! It's a mini FChat drive! Jonathan | ||
| John Wise (Jwise)
New member Username: Jwise Post Number: 48 Registered: 4-2003 |
I'm starting my clutch replacement this week and have been following this flywheel discussion closely. I hope mine is in decent shape. I have had nothing but good dealings with BSC- very professional and a spotless shop. So far, they only did an inspection for me, but I've gotten many words of advice as I've been doing minor work on my car. Always helpful on the phone. If a shop was doing my clutch, they would be the ones- but I want to do it myself and learn a little more about this car. Verell- I live in Maine and would love to get together sometime once the car is back on the road. I also would like to contact you during this clutch change if I run into problems, if that's o.k.? | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member Username: Verell Post Number: 1042 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jonathan, When are you planning to go to BSC? I would be happy to go along for whatever support you think I'm worth. I've never been to BSC, & would be interested in seeing their operation. My work schedule is fairly flexible, given a day or so's notice. BTW, I've been trying to puzzle out the difference between the various flywheels. I doubt that the crank keyway locations vary from model to model. Thus the TDC markings are going to be in the same place on all of them. I think the clue is in the different ignition timing specs for the different varients. The flywheel has marks for timing advance for each bank, and the timing specs vary from model to model, especially between the mechanical & electronic ignition models(sigh). For example, the 308 GTB flywheel has marks for 6, 16, & 34 degrees of timing advance for each bank. Assuming this to be the case, it's certainly possible, if a bit of a hack, to re-mark a flywheel to match your engine. It would mean that whoever's setting/checking your cars timing would have to recognize the appropriate set of marks. | ||
| Jeff Howe (Ferrari_uk)
Member Username: Ferrari_uk Post Number: 475 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hi. Unfortunately we do not have the USA flywheel for the carb 308, but we do have the injected version, #115641 at $1172. I have no idea what the difference is.... Anyway, sounds like you need a cheaper option. Thought I'd look anyway. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2978 Registered: 12-2000 |
Gerrit, The grinding process of resurfacing shaves off the material, from edge to edge. The numbers get shaved off too (they are not purposely cut off, they just happen to be in the way...). | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2977 Registered: 12-2000 |
Mitchell: "Peter, I think Ed was the last known person to have bought a brand-new flywheel and supplied the measured number 0.632" (which you promise to write down on your WSM)." I did write it down in my WSM. I cherish it dearly...  | ||
| Gerrit Visser (Gerritv)
Junior Member Username: Gerritv Post Number: 205 Registered: 6-2001 |
Take a look at a 308 flywheel, the timing marks are on the outer edge, not the surface. Seems a very strange place to be machining. Check it yourself. While they aren't the clearest things to find, they are visible through the port hole on top of the clutch housing. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1027 Registered: 8-2001 |
I have had a 308 2-valve, a 308 QV, and a 328. The reason the clutches go so fast, especially on the 308s is because of the ONLY 205 HP. These buyers are usually first time buyers for a Ferrari, and, because it is a Ferrari, they expect it to go fast. One way to go faster is to give it more gas at the start, and hence, use up the clutch faster. The 308 2-valve is a VERY slow car off the line. Granted it is fast in the higher speeds, but this is not considered by the first time buyer. These cars are SLOW, SLOW, SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!...off the line. This is why you read about SO many more clutch changes in the 308s vs the 12 cylinder models. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1627 Registered: 4-2002 |
Dave: I think city life is probably even worse for the F1 cars. Recently I was at a few events in Portland, and I noticed the F1 cars were slipping their clutches severely in the parking lots getting around. If you drive them at, say, 10mph (which you can be forced to do in some situations), the clutch slips continuously. You can smell it. I'd guess that an F1 car that 'lives' out in the country like a proper race horse should would probably have decent clutch life. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 1626 Registered: 4-2002 |
The 308's lack of low end torque *can* cause clutch problems: I've always wondered about the clutch life issue, as I usually leave stop lights w/o even touching the gas, and carefully rev matching shifts. However, a recent trip to Portland gave me a hint at why these clutches could wear prematurely. Parts of western Portland are a little hilly, and it DOES take some clutch slippage with heavy throttle application to get things rolling. Carefull use of the parking brake helps, but add to this the steep ramps in some parking garages, and city life with a 308 could require a lot of clutch maintenance. I'd bet someone living in downtown San Fran has no clutch life........... | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1482 Registered: 5-2001 |
Steve, That's what you would think...but shop around for 308/328's or any Ferrari for that matter, and you'd be surprised how many cars get new clutches before 20k miles. Now I would doubt that Ferrari owners are THAT much worse drivers than the average Honda driver, and Honda clutches go forever, as we all know. I saw a 355B F1 with 17k getting a clutch last week. Now, supposedly it is difficult for the owner to "abuse" that clutch (electronics to think for you)...but here it was getting replaced. | ||
| Steve (Steve)
Member Username: Steve Post Number: 451 Registered: 2-2001 |
2 or 3 clutch jobs in 43k you've got to be either tracking the car or you don't know how to drive. I expect at least 70k on mine which has the orign. clutch with 44k on and nosign of major wear. I checked with the previous owners and they never horsed the car nor did they replace the clutch. Granted my Corvette days took a clutch out every 50k along with 2 sets of tires but if you leave the light with a few strips then you deserve to blow it up. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1480 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jonathan, Ferrari clutches are not considered the most stout. Consider your situation for a moment; your car is 26 years old with 43k miles, that's roughly 1650 miles per year and you can be sure that some of those years the car sat in a garage, in unknown conditions. All that with the general sucky nature of Ferrari clutches and you have the recipe for why they are often replaced at 15k intervals... BTW, BSC may be refering to the many other "aftermarket" clutches, rather than the known eom suppliers as Don previously mentioned. You should again, discuss this with them directly, and name brands and ask their opinion. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 823 Registered: 8-2002 |
T. Rutlands | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 6237 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jonathan, 90% of the parts in a 308 are "aftermarket" When shops refer to "aftermarket" they are usually referring to the oddball ones like Carquest or something like that. | ||
| Jonathan (Birdman)
Junior Member Username: Birdman Post Number: 109 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hi David, I'm always suspicious of repair places I have not yet dealt with. The people at BSC seem excellent so far. They come highly recommended and the place is certainly clean and professional looking. Still, I like to know what the hell I'm talking about when I get into the discussion with them about cost and what exactly they are going to do and charge me for. I have to be that way because I'm not made out of money. We're talking about a repair bill for a clutch that is going to end up being 1/6 of the value of the car, so I want to be sure that I'm checking out all the options. I am a little suspicious of BSC because they told me that the "aftermarket" clutches are no good and they will only install Ferrari clutches. With more research I discovered that the two big companies that make the "aftermarket" clutches are the same ones that OEM them for Ferrari. So, I'm wondering what's up with that. Mike, where did you get that flywheel? Why can't one paint new timing marks on the edge of the flywheel? Is the flywheel really so thin that it's dangerous once the timing marks have been machined off of it? If replacing the clutch twice means that the flywheel needs to be replaced, I would say the damned flywheel is a bad design or the clutch is...one or the other!! You can be sure that the car's new owner is going to be treating the clutch with a bit more respect! I don't get it because my Honda Civic has 198,000 miles on it and the original clutch! What the hell do you have to do to a clutch to fry 2-3 of them in 43,000 miles? I don't think I could destroy a Honda clutch in that many miles if I tried! (OK, well maybe if I TRIED....) ;-) Jonathan | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 820 Registered: 8-2002 |
The $800 repro flywheel I put in a few months ago with my clutch job went in with no problems, and the clutch has been working great. | ||
| dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1466 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jonathan, BSC's is supposed to be a very respected repair facility, so I doubt that they would lead you astray. Consider two clutches in 43k miles to be very likely, and three to not be out of the realm of possibilities. All it would take is one "heavy handed" resurfacing operation to get you to where you are now. I'm not sure why you are being so suspicious, but really think you need to consult with the folks at BSC again to discuss your options. They are the experts. | ||
| Jonathan (Birdman)
Junior Member Username: Birdman Post Number: 107 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hi Verell, I saw your post and the F-UK prices on flywheels. Lets just say that $1700 is WAYYYYYYYY more than congress is going to approve in this household. On top of the clutch and the labor, that would put this clutch job in the price range of a 30K major! Not gonna happen. At that point, I'll have to jack the thing up in my back yard and do it myself under a tarp to afford it! I'm still not convinced that these guys aren't yanking my chain about the flywheel needing to be replaced. I want to see it with my own two eyes first. It would need to have been machined at least twice to completely remove the timing marks and the car can't possibly have had three clutches (going on #4) in 43K miles. If I buy a flywheel, I'm certainly not going to be able to afford a brand new one, this much is obvious, unless F-UK has more of those reproductions that David mentioned. Thanks everyone for your help. I'm hoping Mark from F-UK will chime in here.... Jonathan | ||
| Verell Boaen (Verell)
Intermediate Member Username: Verell Post Number: 1041 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jonathan, Sit down, then see: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/296011.html?1059960496 I was trying to help w/this. So far I think your best bet is a good used one, IF you can find one, & IF the price is reasonable, & IF the wear is well within spec. (you want to be able to get at least one more resurface out of it. | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 263 Registered: 4-2002 |
Gents, I was the one who recently purchased a new flywheel, and posted the OE thickness spec. Orginally, I purchased a new repro one from Rutland's...OK quality, but came without a ring gear for $750. I returned it and purchased another repro one, of much higher quality from Ferrari-UK. This one came complete with a ring gear and was 500 pounds...Note that I'm quoted a flywheel for a BB. The 308 variant I believe is less... Regards, David | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 339 Registered: 7-2002 |
Obvious -- but do the Ferrari UK boys not have this? | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 561 Registered: 2-2001 |
Paid $1000 for a repro......no OEM anywhere when we looked a couple of years ago | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 618 Registered: 11-2001 |
I saw a new one on Ebay some time ago, and the starting bid was $1200. No taker, maybe it is still there. George Evans, I think had it. Peter, I think Ed was the last known person to have bought a brand-new flywheel and supplied the measured number 0.632" (which you promise to write down on your WSM). Used ones are around, I suppose. Try calling GT Car parts, but they cannot be cheap. $500 each, I guess. As far as yours are concerned, if you can't even see the timing marks then you probably do need a fly wheel. Can't really replace the timing marks on the flywheel because they are scribed at the edge of the flywheel which gets thinner and thinner as the thing wears down. My timing marks now are at the front of the engine, scribed on the damper pulley. Easy to read while you are spinning the engine by hand. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Advanced Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2972 Registered: 12-2000 |
Jon, they're pretty pricey (I've seen four-figures for a virgin one), so it'll be up to you and your mechanic whether it'll be worth it to re-surface. Take this into account: new wheels measure out to 0.632" (or 16.05mm) thickness - these measurements were supplied by a fellow F'Chatter or F'Lister (can't remember which or who), when he bought a brand-new one. The 308 WSM calls for maxium wear on the plate to be 0.8mm. Others have stated its safe to shave off until you cut half-way through the timing numbers. If the numbers are illegible on yours, it is probably time for a new one... Maybe your next bet is to find a used one with meat still left on it  . Cheaper than a new one. | ||
| Jonathan (Birdman)
Junior Member Username: Birdman Post Number: 106 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hi Everyone, First a short story....then the exciting conclusion with question! As you all know by my many questions and posts, I bought a 308 about a month ago, in drivable condition. The dealer believed the clutch needed to be replaced. After an adjustment with Verell's help, it was still slipping a tad. I have been driving it VERY gently so the clutch wouldn't slip. My plan was to do the clutch in the fall myself. I took the car down to Boston Sports Car Co. in Weston, MA last week for a tune up (timing, carb check) because it was running rough at low RPMs. They called me back and said they couldn't even check the timing because the timing marks had been removed from the flywheel during a previous resurfacing. Now I need to do something with the flywheel (and therefore the clutch) before I can even get it tuned up, so my schedule of repairs has changed. My wife prefers that I have the work done by the shop rather than attempting to do it myself because we have a new baby and she doesn't want me spending days on end working on the car (at Verell's house, no less!). Now the question: Do I really need a NEW flywheel or is it likely that mine can be resurfaced and the timing marks somehow replaced? I know the flywheels are notoriously thin but this seems kinda stupid. If in fact I need a new flywheel, how much can I expect to pay for one? Thanks.... Jonathan |