| Author |
Message |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 505
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 9:13 pm: | |
Philip,
Don't feel bad. 2x your time estimate I think is pretty good. Generally I try to worst case everything and still wind in the 2x-3x underestimation range. A lot of the extra time is spent in researching what needs to be done and trying to understand why you are doing it. The killer is when nut or bolt just won't come off in a reasonable manner or something is so shot you have to find and wait for a replacement. I'm getting ready to replace my carbs with new ones. I figure a day to remove them, a day to replace them, and a day to tune them. Wanna bet it'll be an additional 2-4 days before the're right? We'll see. |
Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member
Username: Pma1010
Post Number: 386
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 8:45 pm: | |
Bill, D J P,
It was a lot of labor to install the P6 cams. Lots of measurement to confirm the cam specs, lots of measurements to get them degreed. More time figuring out where to set the operating lash, what to time them at and so on. Overall, it was at least 2x what I had thought up front. |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Intermediate Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 1672
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 11:48 am: | |
FWIW, the early 240hp motors can pull 195-200 at the wheel on a chassis dyno, while the later carb cars are lucky to get 175, even with rejetting. |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 494
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 3:57 pm: | |
There would also be a lot time invested in reshimming the valve lash with new cams. |
Oldslow308 (Djparks)
Member
Username: Djparks
Post Number: 526
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 9:12 pm: | |
Thank You Mark,
It seems that for the same amount of labor (though more money)a set of P6 cams could be dropped in but then there would be another substantial amount of time spent rejetting and tinkering with the fuel delivery to accomodate the new profiles. Sounds like fun.
I better print all of this for future reference ;~) |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 654
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 4:12 pm: | |
I redegreed the cams in my QV, it shifted the torqure peak down 500 rpm and the hp stay where it was, just like the factory claims. |
dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 1688
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 3:17 pm: | |
DJ, better yet, I would like to see the dyno results of this conversion....before and after. |
Oldslow308 (Djparks)
Member
Username: Djparks
Post Number: 525
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 3:03 pm: | |
I guess the obvious question is, " Has anyone redegreed their camshafts to the specs in Teds article and what were the noticable results?"
DJ |
Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 1276
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 2:22 pm: | |
You need a magic wand, NOS, forced induction or open the engine to get another 100HP.
I agree that you can retime the engine but you cant time it to Euro specs because the exhaust cam is a different grind than the US and they never made the claimed 255HP ever, just on paper. |
Oldslow308 (Djparks)
Member
Username: Djparks
Post Number: 524
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 2:08 pm: | |
Thanks for the info Ted. Makes me look forward to the next belt service (almost). Sooooooo what else can we do on that road for another 100 HP?
Just can't leave well enough alone I guess.
DJ |
Ted Gage (Tedmac)
New member
Username: Tedmac
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 8:46 am: | |
They do not, but can be set to Euro standards. Some believe the cams are identical except for witness marks. It's hard to tell as the durations can be measured at different lifts. You can overcome that by computing the cam center and moving it to Euro specs. Here's what I did.
http://www.tedgage.net |
James Angle (Jimangle)
Junior Member
Username: Jimangle
Post Number: 73
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 12:36 am: | |
I think the only cars that had close to 255 hp were the euro cars with one distributor. I'm beginning to think that all the american carb cars (76-79) have the same set up (cam timing). |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 483
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 7:30 pm: | |
Paul,
Nope. I need to get the valence painted and see what it needs to fit it, and find the time. Job number 27 on the "to do" list. This is a good winter job. The weather is too good right now.
Bill |
dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 1672
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 7:23 pm: | |
I LOVE Canada, it's like another country... :-) |
Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 1275
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 7:20 pm: | |
Thanks Bill, got the valance on yet? |
Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 1274
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
Very good Dave. |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 482
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 7:16 pm: | |
Dave,
Thanks for the translation. Got it.
Bill |
dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 1670
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 7:13 pm: | |
Bill,
I'm dating a Canuck, so here is your translation key:
zip code = postal code
check = cheque
expiration date = expiry date
labor = labour
center = centre
one dollar = looney
two dollars = tooney
huh? = eh?
color = colour
Got it, eh? :-)
|
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 480
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 7:02 pm: | |
Hey Paul,
It's spelled check, not cheque. Love your GTB.
|
Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 5:54 pm: | |
Bill, I havent cashed your cheque yet, I will this week.(we spell differently in Canada) |
Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member
Username: Bill308
Post Number: 479
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 4:49 pm: | |
In addition to replacable jetting and air corrector changes on the carbs, I believe the progression holes and float levels are also different. Progression hole sizes are not given in the OM for the 40DCNF57/58/59/60 euro carbs. Their float heights are set to 50 mm. The 78/79 US spec carb float heights are set to 48 mm and the progression holes are 150,115,150,160, and 160. |
Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 1264
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 8:31 pm: | |
The intake cam duration on my 79 US spec 308 is the same as the Early Euros and can be timed to have the same opening and closing times but the exhaust cam is different. You can mess with the timing but you wont get it the same as the Euro by using US cams. |
Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member
Username: Snj5
Post Number: 379
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 3:55 pm: | |
Or just go here for the Philip Airey P-6 road test and development (along with a lot of other stuff).
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/112/300846.html?1061239304
|
Oldslow308 (Djparks)
Member
Username: Djparks
Post Number: 506
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 3:53 pm: | |
Thanks Russ |
Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member
Username: Snj5
Post Number: 378
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 3:48 pm: | |
Yes - Philip Airey just put in P-6s and went over jetting. Check the recent '3.2 with carbs' thread for road report from last week. Really cool.
Many 308 people do report a dramatic increase when going to 140 main jets, also usually accompanied by an idle jet bump still using the stock 34mm venturi. It's cheap and easy to do.....
Check the archives for LOADS of discussion on 308 jetting.
Hope this helps
rt |
Oldslow308 (Djparks)
Member
Username: Djparks
Post Number: 505
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 3:40 pm: | |
So a simple re-indexing of the cams and a rejet just isn't going to cut it.(yeah,like somebody hasn't thought of it already!).
I also read in the archives a while back of somebody installing P6 cams but I never saw a road test. There was speculation that too much bottom end would be lost and the cams would do poorly on the street. Anybody hear the results yet?
Thanks everyone, DJ
|
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 2040
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 3:12 pm: | |
DJ -- I believe the 240 (or 255) HP rating is a (possibly optimistic) "gross" rating; whereas, the 205 HP rating is a more realistic "net" rating. Eight things I can recall on the later 205 HP carbed US 308 vs a "standard" 255 HP version:
1. intake camshaft duration reduced and retarded
2*. exhaust camshaft retarded
3. intake and exhaust camshaft lift reduced
4*. air injector nozzles restricting exhaust ports
5*. few HP need to run air pump
6. smaller (125) main jets
7. catalytic converters
8*. wet sump vs dry sump
* also applies to 240 HP US version
See this post for the camshaft difference details:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/256120/251131.html |
Oldslow308 (Djparks)
Member
Username: Djparks
Post Number: 504
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 3:00 pm: | |
I have read many times that the European and pre 1978 carburetted 308's were rated at 240 HP with the '78 and later carbs rated at 205 HP. I have have also heard of re-indexing the camshafts to European specs during a belt service to bring the horse power back up. What else is involved to put the engine back in European trim?
Could somebody list the differences between the 240 HP spec engine and the 205 HP Carb engine?
Enquiring minds want to know!
Thank you, DJ |