| Author |
Message |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 91
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 8:30 am: | |
Thanks for that Chris, you have put my mind at rest. Agreed the gauge is in a very minor position within the car centre console next to fuel gauge, unlike the, quite understandably 'in yer face' oil pressure and water temperature gauges in the main console'
I think you hit the nail on the head with the fact that its low reading is probably due to sump location of sender with a dry sump engine.
BTW, just out of interest, is the oil T gauge in a different position on a non Euro F348? |
Chris A. (Asianbond)
New member
Username: Asianbond
Post Number: 28
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 8:24 am: | |
Dave- basically, my personal opinion is I wouldn't worry about it, I agree with your speculation that it's a faulty design by Ferrari, however, I'm puzzled by John's car reading of 190F because I remembered seeing the same 140F reading in another car I test drove here in hot Hong Kong. If your car is still under warranty then of course by all means get it fix, but something tells me that the dealer's going to give you the same line.
Look at it this way, the most important gauge to me is the water temperature gauge, that should be a reliable indicator of the operating temperature zone of the engine, if it's low on oil or for some reason the oil is running too hot I think it will be reflected in the water temp (because the engine will be running too hot also), or if the engine is still not warmed up it will also be reflected. I don't ever recalled suffering engine damage in a normally aspirated water cooled car because the oil is not hot enough (assuming the car is warmed up) or oil is running too hot, it's more a scenario where you're running low on oil, water or failure of cooling system or fan that will immediately cause the water temp gauge to rise. So I rather focus on the water temp. gauge (I guess that is why Ferrari put it dead center in the instrument cluster)
John-your points are very logical and makes alot of sense which I completely agree with on what the gauge SHOULD read, but I think this is just a case of Ferrari's quirky character on a specific car. Maybe the design flaw is because the temp sensor measures the oil from the dry sump and not in the engine (a guess).
Believe me the first thing I noticed and pointed out to the seller was why the oil temp. gauge "wasn't working", and both the seller and mechanic fed me the same line about it only raising off the minimum level when you run the engine hard.
And to avoid any confusion, the oil temp. gauge on european 348 is located in center console right in front of the shifter and next to the fuel gauge. |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 90
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 2:42 am: | |
You are all saying what I was thinking, believe me I dont see how a manufacturer could get it so wrong as to specify a monitoring system that operates under the range of the system its monitoring!
It was TALACREST - 'Europes leading Ferrari independant' that I bought the car from and that told me this yesterday. I have about 2 months of the three month warranty remaining so am keen to get problems sorted as much as possible within that period.
Seems I will have to speak to them again today! They did come across as being pretty convinced on this issue though, like the system was poorly designed such that it doesnt often indicate at all. |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 89
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 2:36 am: | |
Najib,
Talacrest is where the car and the advice came from! |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Junior Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 238
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 1:53 am: | |
I just have to say it again...there is no way that normal operating temp on this car is less than 140F. Out of the three 348s I have driven not one of them has, once driven for 5-10 miles, stayed that low. It gets warmer in Arizona than 140F that sometimes. :o) |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Junior Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 237
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 1:48 am: | |
Dave and Chris A. - I am sure that I am looking at the oil temp gauge. I agree with Ric that having your oil temp at 140F consistently is not good for your car, oil does not reach its optimial operating thinkness until at least 150 degrees when using 5W30. By optimial thinkness I mean it is able to flow freely through the pump and over all parts in the engine as well as flow back down into the oil pan and be recycled throught the sump in a quick manner. With 20W50 this temperature needs to be higher for the oil to reach its optimal operating range.
Dave I dont know which dealer gave you this line of crap but please let the rest of the people on the board know so we can know who to avoid at our next service. I cannot believe that a true mechanic would ever tell you that the oil temperature in a car is not to exceed 160F except in extreme conditions that is insane!! I have been working on car engines for a while now and I cannot think of one of the top of my head that I have built, that no matter what size oil cooler I have on it, has maintained less than 140F temp once the car is warmed up. I honestly dont think it is physically possibly given the temperature of the combustion chambers. Also remember that in a car oil carries away 60% of the heat from your engine, your water system carries away the other 40%, which pretty much means that your oil is always going to be near the same temp or greater than your water temp.
Another though is why in the hell would Ferrari even install a oil temp gauge that goes from 140F up if the temperature never gets that high dont you think they would have installed one that went from like 90 to 175? As your mechanic that just to see what his answer is.
Sorry if this post is getting long I dont mean to ••••• at either Dave or Chris but it just pisses me off when I hear of a Ferrari dealer spreading some •••• like this around.
More food for though....I live in Minnesota and have had my car out on a day that was -10F, my oil temp after a 2 hour drive was 190F about. Now if those conditions arent conductive to a low oil temp I dont know what is. :P |
Najib Amanullah (Najib)
Junior Member
Username: Najib
Post Number: 160
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 12:55 am: | |
I concur with Ric and Barry. If the temp guage does not move, how will you (a) Know it is working and (b) Ensure you are driving at the correct oil temperature which should be around 100C.
Otherwise what is the point of the guage. You will never know if it is working and will assume that it is running at correct (minimum) oil temperature until suddenly your car overheats and the engine ceases on you. I would definitely speak to another dealer or Ferrari Specialist if I were in your situation.
Why not talk to Talacrest or Kent High Performance Cars etc.? |
Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Junior Member
Username: 308gtb
Post Number: 140
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 5:57 pm: | |
Dave,
You mentioned that you're oil temperature guage needle never moves off the mechanical stop. Clearly there's something wrong with, as you said, the guage, the sender, or both.
Indicated oil temperature will vary based on the many factors mentioned in this thread, but will certainly be above the lowest mark which your guage has been indicating. |
Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member
Username: Ricrain
Post Number: 163
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 5:25 pm: | |
"they pretty well confirmed what you have said i.e. that the oil temperature gauge will invariably not go above the minimum level (140 degrees F) except under 'extreme' driving conditions! They suggested neither my gauge or sender is at fault."
I'm sorry, unless you live in very cold conditions, IMHO, that's just plain wrong. I don't know a nicer way to put it.
There's no way that the oil can stay constantly exposed to 190-200F degree water and not "warm up" past 140F. The factory oil cooler is not *that* large.
I've personally owned 4 Ferraris, and driven another two dozen various others, and I've never seen one that didn't get up to a decent oil temp (180F+). I make a habit of not pushing the car hard until the oil is up to at least 160F.
|
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 88
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 4:47 pm: | |
Thanks guys,
Chris A, thats interesting because I spoke to my suppling dealer today about this, they pretty well confirmed what you have said i.e. that the oil temperature gauge will invariably not go above the minimum level (140 degrees F) except under 'extreme' driving conditions! They suggested neither my gauge or sender is at fault.
The oil they use and is therefore in my engine is not AGIP, rather 'Magnatec'. Aparently I should run my car and then test the oil level, i.e. get it up to full operating temp, e.g. wait until fans come on. I was checking it 'before' a drive at about 70 degrees water temp, and was therefore not waiting until the fans switched in.
I'll check oil level after my next drive, hopefully it will the be just below the max mark rather than just above the min mark I noticed when I checked it erroneously.
|
Najib Amanullah (Najib)
Junior Member
Username: Najib
Post Number: 159
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 3:28 pm: | |
Dave
Sorry I misread your question and was talking about oil pressure. My owners manual is in Italian/English/French/German so in case of error in translation, I try to get someone to read it in Italian. The oil temperature at NORMAL driving conditions and speeds should stay constant at 100c i.e. 212F which is dead centre of the dial in the centre consol. On my car this is the case. The manual says if it exceeds 130c (266F) then slow down immediately till oil cools or show to qualified mechanic if it persists at these temperatures.
Section B page 9 of the manual shows a figure (fig. No.6) of the oil system including the reservoir, radiator , filter etc. Item 3 is marked as the Thermocontact, which I assume will measure the temperature. It is on the oil radiator near the pipe leading from the oil reservoir to the rad. Hope this helps. I am not a technical person. |
Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member
Username: Ricrain
Post Number: 157
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 1:15 pm: | |
Uh, no. The oil temp at or below 140F is not good for long term operation. The oil needs to be at least 190-200F for it to purge any water vapor (via evaporation). If your car never shows over 140F, then either the gauge or sender is failing, IMHO. If I start my 348, and let it idle, the oil will come up to 180-190F with no load on the engine at all. On the street 200-210F is not uncommon (70-85F ambient). After extended track time (15+ laps), it will reach 240F. |
Chris A. (Asianbond)
New member
Username: Asianbond
Post Number: 27
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 1:07 pm: | |
Sounds like you folks are confusing the oil and water temp gauges.
Dave, the oil temp gauge on the center console will rarely move from its minimum reading of 140F unless you are driving the car real hard. I had the same questions when I first bought the car suspecting the gauge was malfunctioning. I confirmed this fact with my f-car mechanic and previous owner.
John-I think you're referring to the water temp gauge in the dashboard instrument cluster. My needle is usually dead center under normal driving conditions with a/c on around 195F, when idling in traffic sometimes it hovers a little above 225F, I find it to be operating quite normal. |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Junior Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 236
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 12:54 pm: | |
P.S. I use Mobile 1 or Castrol 20/50 in my car with no ill effects. Mobile seems to like to burn up a little faster than the natural fossil oil. They both offer great lubrication....I dont think AGIP is that great at all I would switch if I was you. |
John J Stecher (Jjstecher)
Junior Member
Username: Jjstecher
Post Number: 235
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 12:49 pm: | |
Dave,
On my 348 the normal oil temp range is around the 210 area. Normally it is slightly below that figure when driving around town, and then dips to 185-195 when out on the highway in 5th gear. I usually burn about a quart every thousand miles on the car but I drive it hard once she is warmed up so depending on how hard you rev the engine and which RPM range you drive in you can expect similar results. |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 809
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 10:02 am: | |
Dave P. -- I think you've found a minor mis-translation that is not uncommon in F documentation. I believe "oil temperature should be about 140 degrees F under normal operation" is better said something like: "for normal operation wait for the oil temperature to be at least 140 deg F". My experience is that when motoring around town 180~190 deg F is typical steady-state.
PS My favorite F "translation":
"To avoid horrible mileage, upshift at low RPM."
|
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 84
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 9:16 am: | |
najib,
Thanks for that detail.
My oil 'pressure' is extremely good and in line with other threads read here (BTW its a 3K mile engine so it should be)
My problem is the normal reading for oil 'Temperature'. I checked my owners manual and it says something like oil temperature should be about 140 degrees F under normal operation. The 'minimum' marking on my oil temp gauge only starts at 140 degrees F, so the manual advice is a bit of a mystery to me? Having said that, my needle doesn't even move off the gauges mechanical bottom stop, so clearly either the gauge or sender or both are likely to be at fault.
Where is the oil 'temperature' sender located, I couldn't find this info in my owners manual? |
Najib Amanullah (Najib)
Junior Member
Username: Najib
Post Number: 158
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 8:11 am: | |
When you start the engine it should be around 6. Then as the oil warms up, when driving at 3000 -3500 rpm the reading should be between 2.5 and 6.
I think the normal capacity is around 12 litres. It will normally use 1/2 litre every 500 miles. Only check oil pressure after warming up engine for 5 minutes or so...immediately after switching off engine.
Shell Helix 0W/40 is also recommended if you cannot get hold of Agip. Helix is available in the UK. All this should be in your owners handbook. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1524
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 6:21 am: | |
You can mix another oil with it with no consequences. All major brand oils offer equal protection IMHO |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 80
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 5:08 am: | |
Thanks Edward, I guess it would be easier and less costly for me to get some from my nearest dealer. I dont think I'll risk mixing in anything else.
Regarding usage, the level was just above Min on the stick after running up to operating temp. I don't know how long its taken to get down to that level, have to top up and check it. |
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt
Post Number: 1519
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 4:39 pm: | |
I keep AGIP 20W/50 oil but the shipping is high. |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 79
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 3:11 am: | |
My gauge doesn't appear to be showing a reading, it just sits at its lowest level, what should I see on it under normal conditions. Is it likely to be the gauge or sender at fault and if the later, where exactly is it located (must get myself a workshop manual for this thing!
As a side question, if I can't get hold of AGIP fluids, what oil could I use to top up engine oil that will mix with the AGIP thats in there, or has it got to be the same? I will be asking the supplying dealer but just in case I forget I'm interested in your views. How much oil should a 348 use under normal use? Nearly new engine @ just under 3K miles? |