| Author | Message | ||
| Bill Pemberton (Fastoldman)
New member Username: Fastoldman Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes, I have been racing both, and I would be glad to talk to you about the Spec Miata. Babel is correct, but I thought I might impress someone on the board that living in Kneebrasky I even know what Chianti is, ha! I know we would open our arms to any Ferrari drivers, as Viper Days was started as a program to follow Porsche, Ferrari, BMW club instruction events. PS - We have alot more cold beer on hand than wine, hehe. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 296 Registered: 8-2001 |
Chuck, Pemberton is more cultured than me. I had to look up both terms on Google (don't drink wine). I would probably fit in more with the Vette and Viper crowd than you would imagine. A cooler full of beer suits me fine as long as it's not British and as long as it's not warm. Pemberton, noticed you have a Spec Miata. Great series, thinking about building one next year if I don't buy a Spec Racer Ford (or Spec Wreckers as we call them). Do you race the Viper or just the Miata? Anyway, I will check the calender at the beginning of the year and get back to you Chuck about a Viperdays event. I think it would be a lot of fun. I was on Route 28 today near Dulles International Airport and followed a guy what appeared to be a Hennesey Viper GTS coupe (Blue with the double white stripe). That car still looks good even 10 years later. Cheers, Jon | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
Junior Member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 119 Registered: 5-2002 |
Yep, I wanna ride too Jon. But don't let PIMPerton fool you with the wine request, he aint that cultured. Get TJ Swann, he won't know the difference. | ||
| Bill Pemberton (Fastoldman)
New member Username: Fastoldman Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2002 |
Why not check out www.viperdays.com, as I know we will all welcome Ferrari Club members to the events. I am sure you would find it a very congenial group of gearheads and we would love to have the Prancing Horse on track with the Snake --- gee, I am starting to sound like a Chinese Zodiac. PS - We usually have a great party before the events, so Jon please show up with a good bottle of Vallopicella and Chianti---- it will get us all in the right mood. Your car looks fantastic, and if I am Instructing, look me up, as I would be in for an E ticket ride with you!! PS - | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 273 Registered: 2-2001 |
Anybody interested in adding a Viper to the mix would do well talking with Bill Pemberton. Good guy who knows a thing or two of what he speaks. | ||
| Adam (Eldiablo_viper)
Junior Member Username: Eldiablo_viper Post Number: 52 Registered: 7-2002 |
There was red with yellow stripes and there was all red with some stickers. I don't recall if both were 355's onr one was 360. The guys were very nice, they helped me out when my friends car could not get started. | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
Junior Member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 118 Registered: 5-2002 |
Uh oh, Pemberton found this site. I�m gonna get kicked off here for bringing all my Viper buds over. C�mon Bill, spill the beans. What event(s) are going to marquee both Vipers and Ferraris? I need to know now so I can save up for the trip. Jon, it�s been a tough year financially so my racing was dramatically cut in 2002. I�m hoping for things to go smoother next year. We�ll meet at the track some time. Two Viperdays events I�m going to in 03 will be Mid America in Iowa. Make the trip if you can. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 289 Registered: 8-2001 |
Agree, Bill, well said! As for Archer, I am not a professional and was quite impressed with his driving though I have friends who have raced against him and some think that he only does well if he has mega hp over others. He ran in the Speedvision series a few years ago and won a hanbdful of races but some folks claimed he had at least 50 hp on the other cars and the following year they slapped some restictions on his car and he suddenly was running in the middle of the pack. I don't know if there is any validity to this or not. I know Bell is quite talented and he has done well in the Trans Am series this year. Thanks for the clarifications on the differences between the Vipers. Viperdays looks like a great bang for the buck event when you consider what it would cost to run a Viper in SCCA Speedvision or Grand Am. Adam, Darn, I was signed up with Todd S. (Tracquest) to do the Glen event at the end of October. It was not me as I had to prep my car that weekend for the Trackmasters event at Summit Point Raceway. Would have loved to run with you guys. What did the car look like (color) I know most of the 355 C's. If it looks like mine (red with yellow stripes) it's a guy that ran a few races in the Challenge Series in 2000. My paint scheme was copied off his car. I don't know his name but he looks like Michael Andretti with short black hair and a beard. Todd said there was supposed to be an F40 as well. Maybe next year. Regards, Jon | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1768 Registered: 9-2001 |
well said Bill | ||
| Adam (Eldiablo_viper)
Junior Member Username: Eldiablo_viper Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2002 |
Cool John, were you at Watkins in Oct with Tracquest or all F race cars have yellow stripes? | ||
| Bill Pemberton (Fastoldman)
New member Username: Fastoldman Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lot's of good thoughts, and since many of us love all the cars mentioned, I do believe a little clarification might be needed. Ferraris, Vipers, Porsches, and Vettes are often only as fast as the driver who is piloting them, as Jon mentioned.The other issue I didn't notice is track condition and temperature. This can often cause as much as a 3 second variance on the same track. I noticed a reference to Tom Lyon's time,and a T1 Viper is not allowed to run a larger tire than stock ( the Corvette Z0-6 is ,for instance ). It is also required to run a restrictor plate - plus this was a non-abs car. To illustrate this point, view the Mid-Ohio results of Viper Days, and you will see my 2000 Black GTS ran a 1:37 and in checking Bobby Archer's qualifying time for the SCCA Runoffs you will note it was a 1:38. I use this as a reference as we both agree that Archer is a very talented driver, and I have no pretense I am in his league,but........With only headers,factory cats, a catback exhaust, and Hoosiers I was able to run quicker. The car that would be closer to a Ferrari Challenge car currently is a Viper Racing League GT-1 , but again misconceptions exist with these cars. The engine internals are untouched ,they are running crate motors, and are only allowed headers with no cats. The speed they obtain is due to a weight reduction of about 250 lbs and suspension tweaks. They are no where near 600hp, and in fact most dyno'd out at near 550 max at the flywheel. The beauty of this whole discussion is that both cars would annihilate Trans Am cars of a generation ago, and there may be an opportunity for both marques to run together next year. There may be a Viper Racing League event that will also have the Ferrari Challenge Series at the same venue - boy would the fans flock out to see these two beasts?! Needless to say, the answer lies alot in driver ability and all of us knowing actually the true potential/competition of different brands. Since the lust factor is very high for Vettes, Ferraris, Porsches, and Vipers, with most anyway, a good healthy discussion is always good to get the constructors off their behinds to keep the hp war thriving. To that end I applaud this discourse and let it continue. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 288 Registered: 8-2001 |
Adam, No hard feelings. By the way if you can go that fast in a Viper and it's you first year (either with that car or at the track) you have potential. The Viper is not an easy car to drive fast with all that torque. I have driven them and they are not very forgiving at the limit. All that torque means you have to really learn to modulate the throttle. I remember a few years ago an interview with Christophe Bouchut about switching to the LeMans spec Viper from a Porsche Supercup car. He commented that compared to the Viper, the Porsche felt like it had a lawn mower engine in it in terms of torque. He also noted that it took him nearly a year in the Viper to feel confident as in the Porsche. He crashed at least three Vipers in the first half of the season. Not an easy car to drive fast and downright scary in the wet. Chuck and Adam, hope to make a Viperdays event one of these days. I have been to two of them as a spectator and it looks like a blast. Cheers, Jon | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 287 Registered: 8-2001 |
Hey Chuck, I was hoping you would chime in with your two cents worth. I have to agree with you. If you have to drive it home then you can't afford to put it in the wall. The Glen is the least forgiving track with blue armco lining more than 70% of the track. The joke is that the only place you can spin off at the Glen is in the paddock area. The street car thing makes sense if you have to drive it home and that doesn't bother me at all. What bothers me is the recent trend in the past two years for folks to show up in race preped machinery that can't drive at all. The number of people who now own Challenge cars and have no race experience or very minor track experience is getting alarming. We have had some FCA events where people were driving these things in the slower and slowest run groups. Last May at the FOC event at the Glen I had a guy in a 355 C brake in the middle of a turn and I had to lift and go into the grass. They moved him and two others down a group. For some reason folks think that because they have a Challenge/race car that they have some god-given right to be in the fast run group. I don't mind if you buy a race car but don't think you have a right to run in my group just because you have some cool stickers on your car. I stayed in the lower run groups for a long time and have always felt that people should check their egos at the front gate when arriving at the track but this never happens. I understand that many people go to the track once or twice a year in their Ferrari, Viper, Vette and are just there to have fun and are not concerned with lap times or how many cars they pass (or what they have passed). The flip side is that you have folks who want to impress people and this leads to a lot of "repair shop damage" because people won't accept that they belong in this or that group. Just check all the boasting on all the message boards (BMW, Viper, Mustang, Porsche, Ferrari etc.) about people getting all excited because their BMW passed a Porsche Turbo, or someone in Mustang passed a Viper. All this proves is that some people are faster than others. If you have a guy driving an F50 at 5 tenths and you pass him in you Vette driving at 10 tenths what the hell is ipressive about that and what does it prove in regards to Vette's and F50's. Only that one guy can drive better than the other. I have race experience in Skip Barber and SCCA at both the Regional and National (just got my pro license) and have done 50+ track events over the years and the first track event at the Glen I did in the middle run group. In fact the second event I did the first of three days in the middle run group. The first time I did Road America I stayed in the middle run group the first day until I learned the track. getting into a fast run group at a track you don't know or before you are ready is a recipe for disaster. Let's face it there are no trophies at track events (and very few pit babes) and in SCCA your racing for a $2 trophy. Hope to run with you sometime Chuck. Do you ever make the trip with your Vipers to the Northeast? Regards, Jon | ||
| Adam (Eldiablo_viper)
New member Username: Eldiablo_viper Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2002 |
Firs sorry for the BS thing. I know that I'm not the fastest guy but it is my first year with STOCK Viper and second year driving. I have a lot to learn. I'm sure that I was at 2:15-19 but I only had my hotlap timer on for 2 sessions then I lost powersteering and had to go home. There were 2 Ferraris race cars in the red group one had 2 yellow stripes. I was hoping to go with them after lunch but I had to go home. Once agian I would love to go against you in Watkins Glen. I'll post some dates and hope that I'll get invited to one of the F events. | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
Junior Member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 117 Registered: 5-2002 |
Jon, not trying to stir things up??? LOL Jon admits that there are F-car owners that choose not to push for whatever reason. I can�t blame anybody for that particularly if they drove to the track. Same with Adam. That�s a street Viper and it looks like The Glen aint very forgiving. I�m just happy to see Vipers, Vettes and Ferraris on a track! Gawd how I can�t stand posers. Not that anyone asked or that I know what I�m talking about but it looks like everyone was braking very very early. But I would have probably done the same in my street Viper.  Agree with Jon, teens look very respectable. Congrats Adam. Makes me wish even more that I could have been able to get on the track at Homestead with the Ferraris last month. Power steering leak failed tech. Oh well, next time. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 286 Registered: 8-2001 |
You were right on the money, Tom. Regards, Jon | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1754 Registered: 9-2001 |
hey Jon, I had a pretty good guess of 2:10 | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 285 Registered: 8-2001 |
The pole time record was a low 2:06 in 2000 and was broken and lowered to 2:04.9 in 2001 (last year the 355 C was eligble to run in the Challenge series. Regards, Jon | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 284 Registered: 8-2001 |
Not sure what ALMS series you are watching. Fastest times for 996 GT3's that compete in ALMS and also Grand Am do 1:55's and 1:53's at the Glen. The Ferrari of Washington 360GT that won at the Glen this summer did 1:52's and this is in GT class. The LMP 900 cars do nearly 1:40 flat. Matt Karson has done consistent 2:06's in his Challenge car and the pole time for a 355 C in the Challenge series is a 2:04.9. 360 C is a 1:59. Take a look at the lap times from this years SCCA Glen Nationals. These are T1 Corvette ZO6's and Vipers running 2:10's and above. Engines are stock, but suspension and brakes are upgraded and they race on real race rubber, NOT street tires. The second and third place finishers in this race also race in Grand Am in American GT class so I would hardly think they are slow. I have been to the Glen a grand total of 4 times and twice it rained and I can do 2:10's off the bat. If it were my home track I know I could knock a few more seconds off the time. Your Viper days post shows one lone guy under 2:10 and this is in unlimited where folks are getting 500-600 hp and showing up with full fledged race cars. Take a look at E production lap times from the same SCCA race weekend and you will see that some guys are getting 2:11'a with Honda CRX race cars. Doesn't say a whole lot for someone with a 600+ hp Viper in unlimited. Your post about "BS" is not surported by the facts I have shown you. E production lap times http://www.glen-scca.org/common/nat2002-6.htm T1 Laptimes for Vettes: http://www.glen-scca.org/common/nat2002-1.htm Here you can find the T1 lap record for a Viper which was set last year http://www.flr-scca.com/race/2001/national/ CLICK on results and scroll down two pages for the Viper T1 track record. It was set by Thomas Lyons at 2:09.678. Wow he is a whole half a second faster than my time and I am at a track event not a RACE. No trophy or spectators to impress. By the way my 2:10 was on worn slicks so I am sure that equals out your less than adequate track conditions. FYI: the ALSM cars that you claim cost 500K are LMP Prototype cars not GT and GTS cars, which are production based street cars. The Porsche 996 GT3's, Ferrari 360GT's, cost about 150-175K not 500K. I would love to run with you sometime. The Empire State region runs their events every May and August/September (Labor day weekend). You are welcome to attend. I did not post the URL for the ALMS and Gran Am times as they are easily accessible on the web however if you still don't believe those lap times I will be happy to post the links. As stated below don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to stereotype Ferrari owners as slow any more than it makes sense to do the same with Viper or Vette owners. By the way 2:19 with stock tires ain't bad at all. Race rubber might get you another 2-3 seconds especially if you can get on the gas early. From the video you definetally looked faster then the Vette. He is way too late on the throttle and that would account for his being 7-8 seconds slower. Regards, Jon P. Kofod | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1749 Registered: 9-2001 |
here is the thread http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/85800.html I am sure Jon/Matt will provide more details, I was just stepping in on his behalf - hopefully he does not mind | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1748 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think Jon said matt has the record. Let me see if I can find the post | ||
| Adam (Eldiablo_viper)
New member Username: Eldiablo_viper Post Number: 49 Registered: 7-2002 |
Here are results for Watkins Glen 2001 Viper days. http://viperdays.com/glen2001.html If he is in 2:06 then he is as fast as cars in ALMS that cost 500K. I would have to say BS to that. | ||
| Adam (Eldiablo_viper)
New member Username: Eldiablo_viper Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2002 |
One more thing, it rained before and was very cold so maybe we were not that fast on the video. But tell me what times are you getting in your race car? | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1745 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think Jon once said he went around the glen at low 2s maybe 2:10 I am sure he will confirm. I think matt does 2:06 | ||
| Adam (Eldiablo_viper)
New member Username: Eldiablo_viper Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2002 |
You are right the ss were not my best part because I was in 3rd and shifted in to 4th in the middle (you can seee the fire) later in a day I started going in to ss on 4th and that gave me more speed. The vette in the Video has 417RWHP and is not Z06. My lap time was 2:19 on tock tires, the Vette laped 7-8 sec slower. What were your times? I would love to run you. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 283 Registered: 8-2001 |
Adam, Nice video. Not trying to stir the pot here but I seem to recall you making some post (most likely in good humor)about us Ferrari owners not allowing other cars into our track days because we don't want to be the slowest cars on the track. Neither of you (the Viper or the ZO6) are going very fast through the corners in that video. The guy in the ZO6 is well off the throttle in turns 7, 8, 9, 10 and turn 11 until well after the apex and he is lifting after turn 2 going up the hill in the esses. Listen to the audio. I can't tell where you are lifting but you aren't pulling away that fast through the esses. FYI: The Empire State Region allows all cars. Last event we had two Porsche 962 Turbo Longtails, Corvette's, Mustangs etc. Don't get me wrong I love Vipers and the ZO6 is also a great car, but if that's is how fast most Viper/ZO6 owners run at the Glen they won't be running with most of us in the "Red" run group. No one I know who runs in the "Red" group at FCA events BRAKES in turn 10 (next to last turn before the front straight). Some lift but braking there kills your exit speed into turn 11. The ZO6 brakes before the 500 foot marker in turn 8 as well. Not trying to get into a "shooting" match just trying to point out that I am sure not all Viper/ZO6 owners drive that slow and not all Ferrari owners drive slow either. I am sure Chuck B. who also owns a pair of nice Vipers and is on this site wouldn't want to be lumped in with those two cars any more than I want to be lumped in with half the F car owners who choose not to push their cars for whatever reason. Could be that you are much faster than the video shows and maybe you both had passengers in the car or the track was not optimal or you were doing a video shoot. But judging from that video and assuming you were pushing it you wouldn't exactly be blowing the field away in the Red race group at an FCA event. I know you guys with American V8's have a boat load more torque than our little Italian screamers but I have been in a Viper with Bobby Archer and a ZO6 with Justin Bell at VIR and I can assure you neither of those guys ever wait for the apex to hit the gas. It ain't what you drive, BUT how you drive it. A 100 hp Spec Racer Ford is only 5 seconds slower than a SCCA T1 race prepped ZO6 or T1 prepared Viper at the Glen (long course). Horsepower isn't everything if you haven't got the balls to keep your foot in it. Not trying to cause a "ruckus" or a Viper vs. Ferrari spat. Just trying to point out that stereotype's can be misleading. There are plenty of fast folks in both Vipers and Ferrari cars. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 1988 BMW M5 Club Racer #44 1998 Spec Racer Ford #6 | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 453 Registered: 8-2001 |
Awesome video! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2904 Registered: 2-2001 |
Cool video Adam. | ||
| Adam (Eldiablo_viper)
New member Username: Eldiablo_viper Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2002 |
I'm driving the viper with the flames. This is the first time I was able to see how it looks. I like it. BTW the Vette with the camera is not stock and has 417RWHP. http://forum.rallyfreak.com/zerothread?id=585 |