| Author | Message | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 146 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks Jon, Everything you said makes perfect sense and really does help. I'm so passionate about driving that I could read endless reams of this stuff, so thanks for taking the time to track it down for me. I think you're absolutely right about recognizing mistakes early before you get into trouble. The best example I can point to was my spin in the rain at Road Atlanta. As mentioned previously, I was testing my limits going deeper into each corner with more and more speed. I came off the front straight into turn 1 and hit the apex perfectly, but had way too much entry speed. I should have realised this WAY earlier, but as you said that comes with exprience. I quickly started running out of track going up the hill and the wise thing would have been to run off into the grass, but again with my relative inexperience that wasn't an option and my focus was on trying to save it. I gently tried to pinch the steering and gently lifted off the gas, knowing that these would lighten the rear end. I was praying it wouldn't happen, and within an instant before I even realized it I was suddenly flying backwards looking over my shoulder at the inside wall rushing towards me in a blur. As you said, both feet in and I just remember saying to myself, "This is going to hurt!" By some miracle, I suddenly spun back around and stayed on the track. A friend of mine was with one of the instructors at the nearest turn and the instructor said "that was a big one!" In discussing it afterward, the instructors said that in time I would have realized much earlier that I had made a mistake and would have plenty of time to correct it. BTW, one of our instructors, a terrific Brit named Chris Hall has raced just about every Ferrari out there (he used to race against Senna and Damon Hill early in his career). I think he said he'll be racing 360's this coming year, but I asked him which Ferrari was his favorite, and he said overall he preferred the 355 as the best of the bunch! Thanks again Jon and best of luck out on the track, ~Chris | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 799 Registered: 1-2002 |
"Hopefully something here will be useful." Yeah, "Heidi Klum...buck naked" !!! Just kidding. GREAT post, Jon. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 461 Registered: 8-2001 |
Do you guys have any advice or pointers about developing quick hands vs. the slower rhythm I was referring to earlier? Chris, I think in many cases folks have quick hands, but it's their brain that can't keep up. What I mean by this is that as you become more experienced you start to notice things quicker. Some of it by instinct and some of it by hours of experience. Below is a copy of an email I sent to a firend asking a similar question. Might want grab a cup of coffee, it's a long one. Bring a pillow too in case it puts you to sleep. AND no you can't sue me if you fall asleep and knock your coffee all over your lap. Copy of Email: There is a reason that nearly 90% of accidents at DE's and track events are one car incidents (meaning no other cars were involved)). In most cases students realize too late that something has gone wrong AND make the situation even worse by taking evasive action in a state of panic. This is where quick hands are a huge liability. I think everyone is different in how quickly they learn to be able to: a) feel or predict what is about to happen b) slow the entire event down I think a) is pretty self explanetory and is an important factor in being able to drive on and over the limit. F1 telemetry has shown that most F1 drivers sense the onset of loss of traction nearly instantaneously to when it is happening (within a few 10ths of a second). You either learn this through practice/experience or with God given talent. To some it takes years, others a few months. In my case I was an extremely slow learner and have a lot of body shop repair bills from my early Porsche and BMW days to prove it. Point b) is somewhat dependant on mastering point a). But in a nut shell, you get to the level where something going wrong, such as loosing the tail at over 100 mph in a fast turn, doesn't seem like a "fast" event. What I mean is that your mind is working at a much faster pace so that you can actually keep up with what is happening. With beginners and novices the car is travelling much faster than their brain can process information. this is why older drivers become slower. Inexperienced racers and drivers realize much too late that they have gone over the limit. In such cases most would be better off doing nothing (short of both feet in), but in almost every case the driver attempts to save a car that can no longer be saved and makes the entire event 10 times worse. Ever wonder why cars that are going through a turn and headed to the outside of the track end up hitting the wall on the inside of the track. They tried to correct an incorrectable event and made matters worse. I have been there and done that many times. For me the hardest thing to do was sensing what the car was doing before it actually did so or nearly the same time. Part of the problem is that when you working up to this level you are rarely on the limit. Most students at track events are convinced they are on the total limits of adheasion (I did) but are really driving at 7 or 8/10's. The car can't be giving you a whole lot of feedback unless you are on the limit and this is why most people crash or spin when they get to the limit. They have never been there before and don't know what to do. It would be nice if you could set up a few coners at your local track with a half mile of run off space and continually take the car over the limit to test your skill. At most tracks, trees, walls, hills and tires make this impossible. Next best bet is to get a go cart. Anyway, at this point I am probably confusing you more than helping you so here is what I think you need to remember. -do what you feel comfortable with and what works for you. -don't worry about how fast you are or how slow you are in relation to others. Work at your own pace. -remember that problems occur when you exceed the limits of YOUR driving ability NOT your car's limits. -If something works for you that is not of conventional thinking don't let others talk you out of it. -Lastly, you can always improve. I think the last two points are very important. Case in point, I used to think I was a terrible rain driver and was convinced I would never improve. I had a bad crash in the rain and was very hesitant to run in the rain afterwards. At track events I had a choice and for years packed up. At race weekends I had no choice and was forced to drive in the wet. It made me a better rain driver to the point that I now enjoy driving in the rain. Another point is doing something unconventional. All race schools and drivers schools teach you to look ahead to track out where you want the car to go. Never worked for me (believe me I've tried). Instructors tell you to pick a braking point, turn in point, and then look to track out and take the car where you want to go. I can't do it and for years thought I was just an inferrior driver. Two things changed my mind. One, I met an autocrosser who was my instructor in a skid pad excercise and he noticed that I was good at catching all my spins but that like him I tended to focus on the pavement in front of the car unstead of looking beyond to the trees. He said it was a habit he could also not break but that through superior seat of the pants feel he could catch the car, even though he was fixated on what was directly in front of him. Then he said some thing that made even more sense to me. He said, "..Jon, people ask me all the time where is my braking point, turn in point and such and I can't tell them." Which is exactly how I drive. Think of it this way. If you are on a skid pad and looking at a reference point far off in the distance, say a tree. You will notice that the tail end of the car is coming out based on the fact that the tree is moving in your field of vision from where it should be. If however you are looking at a much closer reference point, say a piece of pavement three feet in front of your car, you will never notice through eye sight that the car is changing it's course, because you are fixated on an object that is much to close. I can't tell you where my brake point is or my turn in point. I can give you some idea such as "..between the 200 and 100 foot marker or maybe at the 100 foot marker.." but there are folks who look for a spot of pavement or a piece of concrete as little as an inch or two. I can't do it that way. The minute I am nearing a turn I start looking and focusing on the apex. Everything else is a blur and totally dependant on how much speed I am carrying at the moment. You could have Heidi Klum standing buck naked at the edge of the track and I wouldn't see here. My focus is the apex and until I am certain I am going to hit it, I don't even begin to worry about track out. Usually about halfway between my turn in point and the apex I know I am going to hit it (or miss it) and at that point I look to track out and where I now want to go. I have tried ignoring the apex and looking to track out at turn in and it makes me slower. I saw a show on the BBC in the UK a few years back where the British Transport ministry did an extensive test of motorists by hooking them up with brain sensors (to monitor eye movement) to determine what they looked at and their level or periferal (sp?) vision on a race track. Out of 25 people, 2 were race car drivers, one of whom was Thomas Scheckter, then a Jaguar test driver, and son of F1 Ferrari World Champion Jody Scheckter. Most of the ordinary motorists did what we are taught not to do at DE's and race schools. Focus on one object too intensly. The other racer whom I had never heard of did things correctly looking ahead to where he wanted to go. But what made me happy was that Scheckter incorrectly focused on the apex (or cone in this case) and was fastest. Completely unconventional and theoretically incorrect but he admitted that he couldn't do it the correct way. If it works for you then do it. Ok, by now I have bored you to death to the point that you don't ever want to go near a track again right? Hopefully something here will be useful. Regards, Jon | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 145 Registered: 5-2001 |
Lol - I forwarded those vids to some friends who went through the racing schools with me, but made sure not to include my parents, and especially my girlfriend - that whole Jason Priestly thing scared them bad enough ha-ha. Best, ~C | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3697 Registered: 12-2000 |
No, I'm just really dumb, but thanks. The more you do it, the dumber you get too, now I want to get a $90k 355 Challenge, can't wait to tell my wife when I hit the tow truck with that one. ;) | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 144 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rob, If you're still checking in on this thread, I just watched a few of your heartstopping spins - unbelieveable!! When my friend and I were going through Bondurant, we laughed that he learned by going to far and bringing it back, and I learned by steady progression until I found the limit. I think his style works faster, but man is it ever scary! That must be how you drive the limit so well, because you've obviously raced on and beyond the limit for awhile! You must not show these to your wife. That collision with the tow truck, the 360's off track, and the near head-on collision after your 180 would've probably had me walking away for good. You have my respect, admiration, awe and disbelief! ~Chris | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 143 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jon, Those are great! Very nice driving. I can see that you're very smooth, but have to saw from time to time when on the limit. I thought from the earlier posts that you were constantly sawing the wheel like Rob was - a little more daunting. Very nice driving! I'm still going through all of them, but just saw the F40 vid and even just watching it vicariously got freaked out when you caught up to him so fast before the corner and had to really get on the brakes hard! Whew - can you imagine the repair bill!? Thanks again for sharing. Best, ~Chris | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 142 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hey Jon, Thanks for all the links! So glad they're in mpg form; I'm one of the minority who much prefers Macs but so many of these videos are often in PC formats that I can't view. Looking forward to watching more of you and Rob in action. Do you guys have any advice or pointers about developing quick hands vs. the slower rhythm I was referring to earlier? Thanks again, ~Chris | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3661 Registered: 12-2000 |
Don't let Jon fool you, he could of schooled Senna. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 456 Registered: 8-2001 |
I am no Senna, but here are some clips of in car video from my 355 Challenge. http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video13M.mpg Chasing a couple of 355 C's http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video12M.mpg getting passed by a Radical http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video11M.mpg getting passed by Ike's M3 http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video10M.mpg chasing Ike's M3 http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video9M.mpg chasing another 355 C http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video8M.mpg chasing Ike's M3 again http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video7M.mpg 333SP http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video6M.mpg 962 http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video5M.mpg F40 http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video4M.mpg 911 GT3R http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video3M.mpg 360 C and 911 GT3R http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video2M.mpg BMW snow http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Video1M.mpg BMW snow http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/videos/jon355c/Truck.mpg NASCAR Truck Regards, Jon | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 141 Registered: 5-2001 |
Just watched it....all I can say is WOW! ~C | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 140 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hey Jon, I truly have a passion for driving and like to practice these skills literally every time I'm behind the wheel. Thanks for enlightening me about the next level, I think it's fascinating. My next lesson is to develop quicker hands on skid recovery. I'm SO used to nice, slow controlled hands and looking far ahead that everything unfolds in a nice, slow, rhythmic fashion when I'm driving. When I'm pushing, and the car can unexpectedly (or even expectedly!) get loose, I'm not as quick on the recovery because I'm in a different ryhthm. I felt this way on the skid pad, trying to make nice smooth but quick inputs to correct oversteer and always felt "behind the curve" or too slow on the initial input. Understeer I'm much more comfortable with and on the instructor ride-alongs my coach said I was perfect. It's a bit counterintuitive to take some steering back slightly when understeering into the esses, but I just did what felt natural. Whenever and whatever I drive, I'm always trying to assess the vehicles balance and handling characteristics. We're on location on a film and I've been driving dozens of rental vehicles of all shapes and sizes and I love the process of adjusting to each one. Can't wait to see the Senna video - thanks so much for the link! It's funny, because I've got one of those old "Laps of the Gods" videos with Murray Walker. They do ride alongs with various drivers and when I saw Prost drive, I was convinced he was the smoothest driver I'd ever seen. It was poetry in motion. I've since come to discover more about Senna and even picked up his book on the Principles of Race Driving. Looking forward to it. In regard to the Z, I do love the car and it's been great to me. The only mod worth mentioning is some Stillen sway bars which really help the body roll. I started investigating all kinds of additional mods, but would rather put the money into my next car. I'm going to sell it when I get back and am in the market for a good 97/98 BMW M3 with low mileage. I've got a couple projects to produce & direct and if I can raise the financing, I'm going to reward myself by finally purchasing my long-awaited 308 GTSQV. Thanks again for the advice, and if you have anymore, please share! See you on the boards, ~Chris | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 455 Registered: 8-2001 |
Chris, Your idea of building speed up slowly is the right way to do it. At most track days the goal is to progressively get faster and smoother, be safe, and have fun. You instructors are indeed giving good advice about setting the wheel once and then using the throttle to steer. In most cases when you are learning this you are not anywhere near the limit so I was a bit incorrect is saying that this method is "baloney". It does teach you the correct turn in points and allow you to apply more throttle. The opposite is picking the wrong turn in points and constantly having to correct and not being able to be on the throttle or getting the car unstable because of weight transitions. There is a difference between corrections made due to improper lines and weight transitioning and the corrections made to keep the car from spinning off the track simply because the laws of physics are overcoming the grip, aerodynamics and such even after you pick the right line. At track events the line is of paramount importance in going fast and this is where you can learn to test the limits. That being said, in a race you rarely get to use the fastest line unless you are up front with no traffic (or at the back). This is where you really see folks sawing at the wheel as they take less than optimal lines and then have to correct the sudden weight transitions. The correct line is always faster and many times I will gladly let a racer by if he is offline and then try ot repass him. So being smooth initially is a good thing. However, once this is mastered you need to push beyond this level and get on the limit and that is where you see the car trying to get away from you on the limit. Those who try to be on the limit before learnig to do what you are being taught (and what I was taught) are the ones ending up in the wall or gravel trap. Also keep in mind that a great deal depends on what type of car you are driving and if it's properly set up. The greatest video I have ever seen that demonstrates being on the limit is a in car video of Senna at Suzuka doing qualifying back in the late 80's. Watch it and you will see how much he has to correct the steering, sometimes at speeds in excess of 140 mph in turns. It looks downright violent. After the race he was asked about a vibration problem and his response was, "..what vibration problem, I was simply correcting the car..." Video: http://www.a-senna.com/video_gallery/suz1989.mpg By the way noticed your 300 TT in the profile. I boguth a then new 1991 300 TT and loved it. Great car! Any Stillen or HKS mods on it? Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 139 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ooops you already did (real observant Chris!) Thanks again :-) | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 138 Registered: 5-2001 |
Don't you hate it when people ask how fast you go? They don't understand that it's not a drag race and going into a corner at 50 mph is a hell of a lot trickier than straight-line speed - I mean how hard is it to push a gas pedal and hold the wheel straight? Still, after my courses that's the only question people had for me - how fast did you go? You try and explain that it's a road course and you can only build up so much speed before the next corner, but I don't think they really get it. I only asked because compared to my videos you looked like you were going incredibly fast, but it's probably all the action going on in the vehicle that adds to the effect. It still kills me how it NEVER looks anywhere near as fast on video as it does in real life, and big elevation changes flatten out and look like little bunny slopes. Turn 12 at Road Atlanta is flat out and off camber. When you come out under the bridge it feels like you're dropping to a ski slope, then you just focus on the turn-in/apex and pray the car holds. It's scary as hell until you get used to it, but on video it looks like a walk in the park! Is that hairy part where you drop down from the bank onto the flat? That did look pretty scary, but fun. I haven't seen your other videos, but would love to. I'm assuming they are on the website, but if not send me the link(s). Thanks Rob and keep it up! ~C | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3651 Registered: 12-2000 |
At the end of the TWS oval you're only about 110 Mph in the Mazda, but you stay on the gas down into turn 1 off the oval, that's the hairy part. I have about 20 videos out there, have you seen them all? http://www.spec7.org/videos.htm | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 137 Registered: 5-2001 |
The "deathtrap" is probably great in terms of building and honing your driving skills. As you progress and fine-tune the RX7 and even move up to better cars in the future, things will likely only get easier. I was thinking about your videos often last night - compared to the ones of mine where I was so proud to be driving so smooth, and as Jon pointed out, holding the wheel still in the corners with the right amount of input and using throttle steer to make fine adjustments - I thought that's what great driving was! I never realized how dicey it can get being on the limit all the time. I would slowly and steadily keep pushing the limits as my confidence improved, going deeper into corners with more speed until I finally spun and nearly hit a wall. I did the same thing in the Formula Fords at Bondurant. Each time it took awhile to get my confidence back. It's pretty amazing to watch you drive the limit like that. How fast were you topping out on the straights? With that much sawing it's difficult to guage the speed. ~C | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3624 Registered: 12-2000 |
First lap of the race, it's racing, they have to pass me! I'm a gentleman driver, I don't block, but I don't make it easy either. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3870 Registered: 5-2001 |
the picture looks like you are holding up traffic. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3618 Registered: 12-2000 |
Here's the new paint job, a cold dark rainy day, I'll get better pics soon...  | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3617 Registered: 12-2000 |
My current car has a few "minor" issues. My teammate Greg and personal Skip Barber instructor Chris call my car a "death trap". I think they're exaggerating a little, can't wait until I get my new car built though. | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Junior Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 136 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rob, I've been so busy lately that I haven't been able to check-in as much as I used to, but I'm sure glad I didn't miss these! That was some great driving. Just as John mentioned, I always learned in racing schools (Bondurant & Panoz Road Atlanta) to be smooth. I've heard what you seemed to be experiencing as "kickback". I always notice a lot of this when watching races on Speedvision, but never to the level you were experiencing - that would scare the hell out of me at those speeds! You had a beautiful recovery from what looked to be a little power oversteer downshifting quickly into a corner - very quick hands! The Miata mud bath also would have freaked me out - going those speeds in the rain and then losing all visibility. Wow! It was bad enough just vicariously experiencing it through your video. When I was driving Road Atlanta, one of the days had a massive rainstorm. I thought we would have to cancel class, visibility was so bad, but away we went with the rain spitting in your face through the windows, doing 125 on the back straight with very little visibility. When we slammed on the brakes for turns 10a/b off the long straight, all the water built up in the interior would rush forward like a wave machine! Thanks again for sharing, and again, I'm really impressed! Best, ~Chris | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3336 Registered: 12-2000 |
Yes, some of it is my shot steering box and questionable front end, but I was "smooth" my rookie year and about 4 seconds a lap slower. To hustle these things around like we do it's really on the edge. It's not a power car that you can cover up most mistakes from the turns, these cars build momentum as you've talked about. This was one of my best races ever. Qualified 3rd behind last years champion and the 2000/2001 champion. Right behind me the winner of the last two races. I held my own for about 4 laps. In this video watch the silver RX7 loose it in my rear view coming out of turn 2. The white RX7 behind me was that winner of the last two races and he put major heat on me and there was actually some 100 MPH bump drafting going on. I finally lost just a little momentum in one corner and 2 corners later he was able to slip by on the inside. I stayed on his tail to the end for an overall 4th place in class. Better yet I got 8th in the heat with about 30 SM cars and a few IT's. The SM's should be about 1-2 seconds a lap faster than us. I'm really looking forward to the car I'm building now. Has a brand new engine and I'll put an all new suspension in it. Should be done by June. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 398 Registered: 8-2001 |
Great video Rob! I didn't realize that you had to saw the wheel so much in a spec RX7. You can tell on the video that you are trying to wring every last bit out of the car. I can remember in all my driver's ed schools and track events being told by instructors that you needed to be smooth and turn the wheel slowly and if you did it right just keep the wheel turned and then slowly open it up. Then I went racing and realized what a bunch of baloney that advice was. If you can hold the wheel in one position and not make any corrections you are indeed smooth.....and slow as sh*t too. Folks if you want to see how it's done watch this video. The fast folks are constantly shuffling the wheel as the car tries to break loose in the corners. Great video Rob. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3316 Registered: 12-2000 |
Chicks Dig It Racing has put two more in-car Spec. RX7 racing videos on the net... New PR for Rob Lay in the #6 SRX7 at the TWS 2.9 with a time of 2:04.5... http://www.spec7.org/videos/TWS2_04_5lap2003.mpg A Spec. Miata mud bath in a rain race on the TWS 1.8... http://www.spec7.org/videos/SM_Mudbath2003.mpg Regards, rob lay SRX7 #6 & #12 www.chicksdigitracing.com |