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ross koller (Ross)
Intermediate Member
Username: Ross

Post Number: 1033
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 7:24 am:   

see what i mean....
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030410/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_arabs&cid=540&ncid=716
ross koller (Ross)
Intermediate Member
Username: Ross

Post Number: 1015
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 8:46 am:   

dave, i agree somewhat. my differences being that the internet and tv are not often uncensored in these countries, such that every news they get has an inherent slant or ommission.
the other problem is that the rulers of these various countries don't understand the connection between freedom of expression/movement/trade/information etc with prosperity. to keep themselves in power they restrict all of these things, and in turn their economies suffer. those with enough ambition and means just leave, and those who have to stay are left with limited choices on how to put food on the table or entertain themselves. their govt then promotes the vilification of the west to divert their focus. so that vicious circle has to change before we get ultimate breakthrough.

that is why i think we are all in agreement that the democratization of iraq must succeed and the palestinians must be given a homeland which they can control themselves in a democratic way. it will force the arab attention onto a success story and this will be the catalyst for true change throughout the region. a few years off though......
Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Maranelloman

Post Number: 1052
Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 8:27 am:   

Manu & Ross, thank you for your erudite comments. Manu, you raise an EXCELLENT point. And while I am poorly equipped to predict the future of this region, please allow me to pipe in with a few observations in general that may illuminate the way to the future, based on history, culture, and a past life of mine: (a) I think the general level of love/hate for the US among the youth of the Arab world will remain as it was before this war, since few see Hussein as a Muslim unifier, and most know him to be secular in the extreme; (b) above all, Arab rabble-rousers respect strength...they may talk a good game but they are historically conditioned to follow strong leaders (like Russians)...this is part of the reason for the imminent unrest in Saudi Arabia (just watch) which does NOT have strong rulers...and we are now very strong in that region, like it or not; (c) with the spread of the internet, and despite cruel Al Jazeera bias & gov't propaganda in many countries, Arab youth are realizing that there is a much better world beyond their borders, and they are getting itchy to bring that progress into their countries & their lives--witness the imminent youth rebellion in Iran that, if it happens, just may roll back 30 years of repressive "religious" rule.

That said, I truly do hope for some effective Israeli-Palestinian roadmap. Such a roadmap, leading to a Palestinian country, will not eliminate the crazed homicide bombers who are just anti-Semitic, a 3000 year old problem. But also, such a roadmap will REQUIRE other Arab countries to contribute land to Palestine; US strength in the region just may be enough to "persuade" these hypocrites to pitch in for the Palestinians thay profess to care so much about.
ross koller (Ross)
Intermediate Member
Username: Ross

Post Number: 1014
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 6:09 am:   

i think once the shooting stops, and the 14 million other iraqis who now have a little more hope for the future, start getting interviewed by al jazeera etc, then the message might get through.
the biggest risk is that the governments of these other countries don't allow that news to come in. syria for example will be getting very nervous about propogating democratic ideas.

the other hope is that we will actually come through on this roadmap for a palestinian homeland, and force the israelis to come into line. then get 'the street' focused on improving their lot in-country instead of suicide bombing.
Manu (Manu)
Member
Username: Manu

Post Number: 693
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2003 - 5:57 am:   

Dave - You know me (in an internet kinda way :-) ) and therefore you also know I'm not one to play devils advocate just to wind people up.....

My BIGGEST concern with this war was/is:

What are the teenagers in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Jordan thinking ?????. Whether we Americans/British are evil or NOT... that is of little consequence. We may have the best of intentions, but if the kids in these countries think we are EVIL, (after seeing endless Al-Jazeera footage of unfortunate civilian casualties) then this war could end up polarising East and West further.... resulting in more terrorism...more Bin Ladens and hence future bloodshed....

Evil Americans??? ermm...I THINK NOT...... but unfortunately, OUR opinion will not shape the future security of this planet.... the opinion of an orphaned Palestinian 17 year old from Jenin who is now watching bombs being dropped on Baghdad on Al-Jazeera.... that's FAR more important.

I hope people can see the honourable intentions in this war.. I hope.
Dan (Bobafett)
Member
Username: Bobafett

Post Number: 361
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 11:02 pm:   

Didn't they say the same of the priests in california? They came to do good and they did very well.

--Dan
Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member
Username: Timn88

Post Number: 2770
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 7:52 pm:   

We are doing more good over there than we will ever know. Probably doinbg more bad than we will ever know, but im sure it is far outweighed by the good!
Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Maranelloman

Post Number: 1045
Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 5:11 pm:   

"The children had been imprisoned because they had not joined the youth branch of the Baath party...Some of these kids had been in there for five years."

Substitute "Aryan Youth" for "youth branch of the Baath party". Notice any similarities, my apologist a$$clown friends?
Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Maranelloman

Post Number: 1043
Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2003 - 4:57 pm:   

Read the first line of the story after looking at the photo. Children....in prison....and WE'RE called the evil ones? Kiss my arse, you a$$clowns.

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/m-lounge/forum.php?postid=2999318&page=1

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