| Author | Message | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 867 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thanks for all the posts guys. Here is what I have come up with... I am going to focus on music. I figure I have such a love for music which is dying in todays culture so I may as well do my best to support it. So Ill be heading twoards becomming a professional musician. However, I love flying so much and I cant pass that up. So to compromise, Ill continue flight training throughout college and see where that leads me; either as a hobby (just flying on weekends for fun), or instructing or corperate aviation as a second job. So basically Im going to study both --yet focus more on music, and see where I go from there. Something will work itself out! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1478 Registered: 6-2001 |
Bob Callahan: Got your email. Tried to reply, but it isn't going through. Please call me on my cell: 415-699-1128 Art | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 477 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jordan corporate is a bit more difficult to get into than the airlines as you really need to network your butt off to find a corporate position. I had to fly with this companies former chief pilot for over a year without pay before I finally got the job. I was working as a flight instructor at my local airport like most pilots in civil aviation do. During my off time I would go out to the various airports in the area and talk to as many people as I could. I got lucky one day and met the chief pilot of the company I work for now, Tim. He was flying single pilot and agreed to let me tag along on flights to keep him company. I did that for just over a year during which time I got to know just about everyone in the company including the CEO. I got a call one day from Tim and he told me that he had been hired by Airtran Airlines. He said he would be leaving in 2 weeks and that the CEO was interviewing pilots for the position. I waisted no time in calling him and he agreed to see me about the job. The fact that he already knew me landed me the job. At the time I only had about 800hrs which was at least 2K hours less than the lowest time applicant he had and I had absoloutely no tubine experience. He just liked me better than the other guys. He agreed to send me to school on the airplane in exchange for a smaller salary in the beginning. Once I had the experience he brought my pay up to industry standard. I have been with the company now almost six years and love it. I don't know if this is typical but I would guess that just about anyone could do what I did. Corporate is a who you know, not what you know game. It is not about ratings, log books, or anything else. All you need to do is be in the right place at the right time and sell yourself. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1476 Registered: 6-2001 |
The flight instructor I had apparently couldn't get past the oral interview for the major airlines in the early 80s. He ended up with UPS. He's now a captain on their large freight planes, makes very good money, and hasn't been layed off. Corporate aviation is ok, but from what I've heard if its part 135, the feds have their nose up your butt, and its a real pain. If the operation is part 91, it may be a bit more bearable, but, companies go up and down the general aviation ladder, and layoffs are sometimes common, the flight department is usually the first thing cut in a recession. Freight companies on the other hand, continue to operate. Art | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 97 Registered: 3-2002 |
1 May 03 To: Robert Callahan: Greetings. I am a sport pilot that has but 200 hours. WOW 200 hours ~ I know everything there is to know. I just fly for fun. I missed passing the USAF pilot physical by one ailment. I hope to get a T-28B/C (within the next ten years) as my next toy. I loved the comment about "young" flight attendants. I am 39 now. I can only imagine the 60's and 70's before womens lib. I heard that in the late 50's and 60's some flight attendants used to (tease sexually) poor scope dopes who were looking for inbound ICBM's at the DEW line. In those days it was only men at bases like Thule etc.... These poor young guys had not seen a women in months. I also remember flying Southwest Airlines when they only flew in Texas. I was a teenager. This was the only airline that I acutually wanted an aisle seat in lieu of the window. The views on the "early" Southwest flights were always better from the aisle than the window. Tight Hot pants! Ahhhh. Those were the days when women wore panties ( and loved to flaunt it ) and men flew jets instead of fans !! Ralph | ||
| Eric Jones (Tweetfaip)
New member Username: Tweetfaip Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2002 |
I think Charles Barton is very correct about corporate aviation being on the rise. Post 9-11 with the security hassle's and all the fees that the airlines are adding for changing schedules having a corporate aircraft makes sense. From the guys that I have talked to while waiting for fuel at FBO's (airplane gas stations more or less) there seems to be a huge variation in the quality of life in corporate aviation. If you can find a good one like Charles has it can be a good way of life. Jordan -- the ironic thing for me right now is that I chose years ago to pursue flying at the expense of music. But right now, while I am furloughed, trumpet playing is helping pay the bills. I seem to have come a full circle :-) Let me know if there is anything I can do. Eric | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 823 Registered: 12-2002 |
Corperate Aviation seems interesting as well. I dont know much about that field, so how is it different than commercial aviation to get into if at all? Do the benefits come to all corperate pilots or just ones flying for a larger company like the one you work for? | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 475 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jordan, what about corporate aviation! I too thought I wanted to be an airline pilot until I got a job as a corporate chief pilot. I love it and would not trade it for any airline job except mabey CEO. I only fly about 30hrs a week, I am home almost every night by 6 or 7, I am off most weekends and holidays, and the job is a salaried position so I get payed even when I am out playing in my Ferrari! The job also comes with full benifits including a dollar for dollar match 401k and use of the company airplane for my own trips. Corporate does not pay as well as the airlines but when you consider quality of life issues IMO it is much nicer. I hate to say it but the events of 9/11 actually helped corporate. No one in there right mind would sell thier airplane right now unless they had to. Since then I have noticed a considerable increase in the number of charter flights at the airport I fly out of. It is understandable when it has become such a hassle to fly on the airlines. Most bussiness people are realizing that the extra money they spend on private aviation equates directly into productivity so they are now much more willing to pay for it. I have been flying for this company now for almost 6 years and plan to retire from this job, it's awsome! | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 182 Registered: 7-2002 |
No, but it can be. Do the girls know the def? | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 821 Registered: 12-2002 |
LOL tough bargain! I know a few young, beautiful flutists but they are taken by me...in my dreams! Next year for Prom Ill see if I can go with one (or all) of them  BTW, is your 355 a Fiorano? | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 180 Registered: 7-2002 |
Jordan, I'll talk aviation if you bring a young flutest BTW, did I spell it corectly? | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 816 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thats a good idea peter. Ill think about instructing in my spare time. Robert, at the next FDC drive, we should get together and chat aviation. I missed the last one unfortunately but Ill be there on the next one! | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 176 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hey Jordan, If you want more advice, call me 805-969-9321. Peter, yes those where the parties. Sex, drugs, and rock & roll! | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 288 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jordan It sounds like the best thing for you is to play your music and instruct new pilots in your spare time. The great thing about going after your music career is that wherever you are, there will be an FBO close by. You have something that not a lot of people have, thats two career options. Whichever one you choose, you can fall back on the other.....Do what you love to do, the money will follow. | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 813 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thanks for the information guys. Exactly what im looking for. Ive got a hard choice to make. I love classical Music and I love flying. Id fly for the love of flying not for teh money, but being able to have a 308 in the garage eventually would be nice. If I was lucky and talented enough out of college (+a few years) I could get about 80k right off the batt with a Symphony like Seattle or San Fran. Thats not bad at all, but it is highly competitive and many many talented musicians fail to accomplish that. It seems both jobs have the same drawbacks and yet the same feeling of satisfaction. Ive got a lot of thinking to do. | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 287 Registered: 1-2003 |
Robert...Were the parties you mentioned the 'interline' parties that were monthly events? In the late eighties, a room mate I had was a mechanic at American. He would invite me to these events and they were nuts!..Never had more fun at any party!..Are these events toast? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 3700 Registered: 8-2002 |
It's my understanding (correct me if i'm wrong) that a pilot's startng salary is something between 14-16k - is that right...? & if it is, is that right...? Jordan, keep us posted on what you decide to do... | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 171 Registered: 7-2002 |
Jordan, I have been in the aviation business for almost 30 years. I flew as a captain on large heavy jets all over the world for many companies. Some of the companies - Overseas National (ONA) Trans International (TIA) Eastern Air Lines, and lots of others. That's the problem. Not only do you have to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get your ratings (and years of time) you must then start to build hours (I would say at least 2,000-3,000) by flying as an instructor or commuter pilot for VERY LITTLE PAY then you start at an airline (again for very little pay) and hope you can move up in senority to make more money while not getting layed off. As a capt at a major airline you can expect to make a decent living, but the days of $200,000 to $300,000 per year is over. You will be away from home and family for 50 percent of the time. You will miss most holidays (Christmas at the Holiday Inn is not fun). In the old days (up until about 1985), it was a great time. Partys, young flight attendants, long layovers it was lots of fun. Now it's like working in an office. You must be very lucky in todays aviation market. Major airlines go out of business leaving longtime employees with nowhere to go. OK, that was the bad stuff. If you like to fly there is a tremendous satisfaction to take a large jet half way around the world, in all kinds of weather safely. I've got to go to maybe 80 different countries and had the oportunity to get to know people and cultures that I would not have had if I did not become a pilot (I've been to Iraq and it's not so bad!). You'll find airline pilots are generally great guys with a great sense of humor. You'll make (eventually)good money (but not what they made in the past) and you'll have an interesting life. Hope this helps, Bob | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 282 Registered: 1-2003 |
Eric Thanks for the sanity check. I really look up to pilots that go this route. Its tough! | ||
| Eric Jones (Tweetfaip)
New member Username: Tweetfaip Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2002 |
Peter, Yes, I agree with your post. It is certainly a long road to the cockpit of a major airline. When you get there the pay will eventually be good. The lifestyle isn't what it used to be, but still beats going in to the office every day. The big question is: is it worth it to you? If you love flying and can deal with the bumps in the road you will have a rewarding career. If you think it will be the path to glamour and riches, think again. For me it has been great, despite being fuloughed right now. Eric | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 281 Registered: 1-2003 |
Eric With your current job capacity, do you agree with my post? | ||
| Eric Jones (Tweetfaip)
New member Username: Tweetfaip Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jordan, I don't know if I can do justice to this question in a forum type post, but here goes... I was hired by Delta in Jul 02. So with all the post 9-11 fallout I was furloughed in Nov 02. I was taking my final MD88 checkride on the morning of 9-11 so I can't tell you much about the lifestyle since I never flew a trip. But, here is how I got there. Like you I am also a musician (trumpet). For me the choice between flying and music came down to the fact that an airplane flying over during a concert would ALWAYS make me look up. My music teachers connected me with some of the better players in NY and LA and it came down to this, I could give it a shot, but there are a bunch of incredible but starving musicians in LA/NY. Flying on the other hand seemed to have a bit more of a draw and was a more stable life (I thought). So I went the Air Force ROTC route and was off to pilot training. My first assignment was to stick around as a T-37 Instructor Pilot. When my base (Reese AFB) closed I moved on to fly the E-3. After two years I moved to San Antonio to teach prospective T-37 Instructor Pilots. It was while there that I was hired by Delta. My hours breakdown is approx: 2400 total, 2300 turbojet, 2000 PIC, 110 night, 600 instrument, 1500 instructor. So, not a lot compared to most civilian only airline hires with the exception of jet PIC. The military route I don't think is any better than the civilian route. Just different. You won't be poor or rich. You will get very good training. You might get to fly modern airplanes, or 1950 vintage :-) These days, you WILL be deployed allot. That is the biggest thing that drove me out of the Air Force. When I signed up, the cold war was still on and you were deployed much less. Today is just different. As for getting hired by the airlines, I don't think it matters which route you will take. In years past military pilots probably had an advantage due to much more jet time. Now with the spread of Regional Jets, not too much difference. My class at Delta was pretty evenly split between military and civilian. As for the shortage of airline pilots in 5-10 years, I don't believe it. If you think about it, if the average pilot gets hired at 30 and flies until 60, a third of all pilots will always retire every 10 years. Air Inc. loves to say there is a upcoming shortage so they can sell their product (yes, I used them, they were great). Salary wise, who knows? It all depends on how things shake out in the next few years. Last note - as a Instructor Pilot I loved having musicans as students and hated having engineers. This is because flying, and especially things like formation and aerobatics demands and ability to quickly improvise and adapt. Musicians were great at being creative and adaptable, but engineers tended to want everything to stay in the order they planned on. Sorry for the length. If I can help let me know. Eric | ||
| Peter Sedlak (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 275 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jordan Tough call here. I assume you have some hours, maybe even your commercial rating. Lets say you are to that point and you have a great number of instruction hours behind you. With the backlog of pilots that were in the queue for airline jobs prior to 911, you will need to wait in line.Granted there are thousands of older pilots that have to retire, but there is a neverending backlog of young pilots that have the hours to get these low paying, right seat jobs. Please note that I am only a private pilot, but I have many friends in commercial aviation. One of my best friends has a typical story, as follows..He instructed for three years and got lucky with a small company that contracted a UPS route from Redding to the gold country (CA) each day. He flew small, trashed twins in all sorts of weather for about ten dollars an hour just to build more hours. With seven years into his entire program (school to instructing to the UPS job), he was luck enough to get on flying at a regional commercial airline out of St. Louis. Now he makes about $14.00 an hour. He feels that a captain's position should come up in one to two years. While based in St. Louis, he shares a small apartment with six pilots that come and go. If the airline he works for goes under, he is at the bottom again at the next airline he may get a job at. Its not all doom and gloom. Sr. captains at Northwest make a decent six-figure income. The same for Southwest also. There are no rich young pilots, but there are not many poor older ones either! For me, its a long road of hard work with little pay. I bow to any one that gets into this field of work!..Best of luck | ||
| David S (Djs308)
Junior Member Username: Djs308 Post Number: 139 Registered: 9-2002 |
Jordan, you've got mail... | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 802 Registered: 12-2002 |
Hey David, im an FS2002 nut as well...E-mail me at [email protected]. Thanks for the information. 9/11 is what changed my focus from flying to music...and it seems im switching back now | ||
| David S (Djs308)
Junior Member Username: Djs308 Post Number: 136 Registered: 9-2002 |
Sorry, I'm not in the biz myself but I do follow the industry closely (and I'm a FS2002 nut). I have a neighbor who works for AA (non-pilot) who formerly worked for TWA before the merge. From what he tells me, this is really a bad time for ALL airlines and job prospects are poor (overall). Travel, as you know, since 9/11 has plummeted and many people, including pilots, are scrambling to find new jobs if they can. Will this change, too tough to say. If you do go for commercial aviation as a career, you might do better at a regional airline, rather than a major. Of course you need to build a lot of hours as PIC before you can get there (I'm sure you already knew that | ||
| Eric (Vette)
New member Username: Vette Post Number: 35 Registered: 3-2003 |
id be interested in this also | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 800 Registered: 12-2002 |
I just have a couple questions since I am at that point where I have to decide on a career in classical music or commercial aviation. I love both equally so Im having a hard time debating in my mind which I would prefer as a career. If you dont feel like answering on the forum, you can e-mail me at [email protected] Anyway, the first question is concerning job openings. Ive been hearing from flight instructors and commercial aviation enthusiasts that there will be a shortage of airline pilots in 5-10 years as many of the older fellows retire. Is there any truth to this? If it is true, how much would salaries be effected for all levels of pilots (commuter - major international)? Next, is there any preference the airlines have over hiring guys from different backgrounds? Would they prefer a military guy with the same hours over a cilvian route pilot? Also, I figure music is my ticket to college with scholarships and so on. Would studying and majoring in music be acceptable for an aspiring pilot? Does college major matter at all? If you guys could just list the route you took to get to the airlines Id appreciate it to compare with other paths. Any advice at all? |