| Author | Message | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 252 Registered: 5-2003 |
Paul I agree. The stigma that the 90's attached to all thiings not liberal gave us a decade of PC. As others here have added the education system is very flawed.. but you can trace that back to million different factors. What is the answer? Busing did not work. Lower standards did not work. AA in colege enrollment does not work. I almost hate to admit that China had a good answer... IT was decided early on what you would become.. College material or not. This way you have a path to follow. I don't agree with it.. but as long as their is a question of whom is owed what we will never have equality | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 780 Registered: 9-2002 |
The Martian kids who have to drive 2 lightyears from home and ended up walking in in their tattered old space-boots are the ones get the real breaks... (don't ask me where that came from) --Dan | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 362 Registered: 7-2002 |
Jeff, I have been boxed out too by colleges...I am a white male, middle class background, card carrying RNC member...and I am not bitter about it. Like Social Security and healthcare...AA is another broken system. I believe that the college admissions process is flawed not because of AA, but because of the liberal agenda that exists at many universities in this country and the need to be PC at all times (I know, my wife works at one). These 5 students I make mention are ones that actually came to class, worked hard and deserve the opportunity to go to college. They deserve the opportunity because they do not have the means...not because they are black,white,yellow or green.. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 246 Registered: 5-2003 |
"Consider this, of aproximately 300 graduating high school students at Franklin K. Lane school (a school in the top 3 worst NYC schools) maybe 5 will go on to college...and these 5 truley need the opportunity." Paul... with no malice intended I ask a question... Why do they need the opportunity more than any other student? The way to get from the bottm is not by being pulled up... it is done by pulling yourself up. Looking at your example, would those five be as qualified as five middle class students that had the extra access to technology . Education should not be wasted. Let the students that have the best chance of excelling get the breaks. Another advantage of the older days... Not everyone felt they deserved a break. Give those five from the innercity vocational trainning.. they are not leaders.. their upbringing alone would assure a bias. How often have we heard black "leaders" start a sentance with " I was raised in the Ghetto and I remember..." That alone has to bias their thinking. They go into life with the feeling that they got the short end so how can they ever be fair. Same with students that get cheated out of a spot by AA.. you ahve read the posts and, hopefully read the news, College students that feel cheated are sure to have some bias caused by this. It is great to think that we can all forgive and forget... but it is not so. Mankind has proven that it can hold a grudge for centuries. Let's ask the Serb's.. or the arab's. | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 361 Registered: 7-2002 |
"The basic thought of AA is wrong: In order to get rid of discrimination we discriminate!" Isn't it more like leveling the playing field? Listen, I'm not crazy about many of the side effects of AA...but my friends, the playing field most certainly is not level for everyone. "At my school, they received a grant a few years back for "technology". Hey, it was the big thing, and they wanted students to start learning with technology. Ok, so they go and buy 20 digital video cameras and probably 100 laptops." Laptops? Video Cameras? Have you been to an inner-city school lately? You will be lucky to find one Radio Shack TRS-80....and Books? Several editions old. The fact is the most middle to uppermiddle class primarily white schools have a 12-15k budget per student...inner-city schools don't have anything close to that. Consider this, of aproximately 300 graduating high school students at Franklin K. Lane school (a school in the top 3 worst NYC schools) maybe 5 will go on to college...and these 5 truley need the opportunity. | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
Junior Member Username: Agracer Post Number: 236 Registered: 2-2003 |
Martin, One thing to remember when dealing with the government and contruction and A&E services, you have to jump through A LOT of red tape in order to get a project done that you don't have to deal with in the private sector. Their are so many rules regarding percent of contracts that HAVE to go to minority or small disadvantaged business's, 3-bidders for every contract, use the GOVT. specification system (which is usually out of date with the latest technology). Meetings, meetings, meetings,....it all adds up. The bad thing about the meeing is that EVERYONE has to be present, even if they're not required, which=more labor charges for sitting in useless meetings... While the cost would not go up 50x, I would not have trouble believing that a govt. funded construction project would be easily 2x as much as a private sector job. You can take a lot of short cuts in the private sector that govt. red tape simply will not allow and adds $$ to the cost of a project. | ||
| Crusing (Crusing)
Junior Member Username: Crusing Post Number: 97 Registered: 10-2002 |
AA should be used but it should be changed to help admissions based on economic status and never based on race. If any person living in a ghetto who went to an underfunded school they should be given the leg-up. But for any governmental entity such as a state funded university to use race to decide anything -- well that absolutely unconstitutional! Read the 14th Amendment. And those who argue that race should be used piss on minorities. They are not good enough to succeed based on their skin color? It is the person's economic status that matters. And to say that blacks should be helped because they are the ones who are poor is also inherently racist. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4962 Registered: 5-2001 |
The basic thought of AA is wrong: In order to get rid of discrimination we discriminate! | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4961 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jon, we totally agree here. I also do not think the German school system is great. In fact it has quite a bit of flaws but it is well structured in comparison to the US system. Here is where I see the problems: Money! Money! Money! and it is not that they do not have it but that it is misappropriated. The school board is some elected clowns that have a say over 5BILLION DOLLARS! per year in Miami Dade County alone!!!! 5 BILLION!!!!! No wonder that money disappears, that building a school costs 50 times more than a similar building built by the private sector. Money is squandered in favorable contracts. While our Super Intendent has a 1 Million Dollar salary (1 MILLION) he is asking teachers to take a pay cust last year for 4 paid days at the end of last years term. He said there was a shortfall on cash for their budget. The mayor of our town sits on the oversight board of the School system now, newly appointed and has uncovered Millions, potentially billions of mismanaged money in a short period of time. This is only Miami! As for affirmative action: as I said I am not a fan, neither do I tink it is right. Two reasons: 1. it gives minorities the feeling they have to do less to get the same which is truely counterproductive to the intent. 2. it is pure discrimination to others, no matter how you see it and want to justify it. With the same token, it will be necessary until you level the playing field. I too do not think these AA should be based on race either! It should be based on the school you visited prior (in FL we have a school ranking system which gives graded to schools). F-grade school participants should have more points to help them no matter if they are black, white or green. Problems in the education system are responsible for a lot of things. It makes an economy unstable. Most of the educated elite is imported from other countries (how does that sound, imported  ) It is responsible for low income and low minimum wage. $5.25 minimum wage is a joke. A student jobbing after school in Germany makes at least $8/h otherwise he will not even think about taking the job. It is the cause for crime, robbery, homocite as well as over agerage drug use. If you think this even further, the money we spend today incarserating people for these crimes could be used for school education because an educated society will have less people in prison for these related crimes. You would be saving Billions or even Trillions of Dollars a year. What it takes is one president and a House and a Congress that will see where the problem is and take action although they will never win a re-election based on the results, since there is a 2 term limit and the result comes in the 3rd or 4th term. You have Laura Bush sitting in the White House today reading to kids. Expressing how important it is for parents to read to their kids! Well, what if the parents can not read? Laura, your husband needs to make a choice how he is going to tackle this problem. Touching it up like his brother Jeb is doing here in FL is not the answer! The reason why this debate is so heated is because we all agree on the basics, but we all know nothing is being done and l;ikely will not be anytime soon so the problems will continue. We are frustrated! | ||
| Randall (Randall)
Member Username: Randall Post Number: 571 Registered: 1-2003 |
AA is great because it reinforces the fact that some people are less than others. So we take the people that are of lower standards, and give them a little boost. It's similar to handicap parking spaces. Those people have a handicap, so we help them out a little. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1942 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jon: As you know, I just got back from a trip to Alaska. I was visiting some of my highschool classmates (we had our 40th reunion just a few years ago). One of them is a very successful African American Doctor, who came from a very privileged family (I won't name names). He was our class President, a football star, you name it, he was it. We were talking about the reunion and he said something interesting: "Soinso, said he always thought I was white and that bothered me a lot, he didn't know what I had to go through." That statement is from someone who is literally at the top of our society, regardless of color. It does define the difficulties that someone of color has to deal with, and hopefully overcome. Starts with attitudes of those not of color, Driving while black is always a risk, being told that the lady you want to date can't date you because of her parents, you name it, and there are barriers. Those types of issues are generally something that the majority doesn't know of, doesn't care about, and most certainly isn't interested in correcting. AA, or affirmative action isn't about equal results, its about equal access. No one grants the folks a degree, no one grants them success in their profession or business, its about access. We seem to forget that school doesn't define whose a success. If that were the case, I'd be shoving snow for a living (except for law school where, when I finally made my mind up, I was successful). School is access. We seem to forget that. We haven't been providing decent schools to our minorities, and we've forgotten that we promised them equal access, which is what schools are. Art | ||
| DamonB (Prova7)
Junior Member Username: Prova7 Post Number: 72 Registered: 7-2002 |
"Your problem lies in 1st Grade to College. If you do not educate properly and have school districts with good and bad schools you will never break the cycle. You will never be able to get rid of a need for AA." -Martin Martin speaks the truth. I will not argue that minorities have poorer education, I agree that they do. But you don't fix this problem with AA in the college years, that's absurd. How is a student who in fact cannot meet the admission standards supposed to succeed??? | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 189 Registered: 5-2003 |
May I stop this thread for one sec.... I started this out of my own anger at a system that was twisted. All of you have given back something much more... Proof of intelligent ability to converse outside of Ferrari ownership. Thank you all for keeping conversation,abet very slow conversation, alive. Thanks again. Jeff | ||
| DamonB (Prova7)
Junior Member Username: Prova7 Post Number: 71 Registered: 7-2002 |
Affirmitive action is a terrible thing. Why? I will allow (after taking a huge gulp) that you can artificially allow admission to (insert any oppressed group here) so they can get into college because they were underpriveleged. But doing that and at the same time turning away others who in fact meet or surpass the admission criteria is unforgivable. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 732 Registered: 8-2001 |
If you can't read the entire article from Dr. Williams below consider this small part: Attempts by affirmative action programs to increase the percent of blacks admitted to top schools, regardless of whether blacks match the academic characteristics of the general student body, often produce disastrous results. In order to meet affirmative action guidelines, leading colleges and universities recruit and admit black students whose academic qualifications are well below the norm for other students. For example, of the 317 black students admitted to UC Berkeley in 1985, all were admitted under affirmative action criteria rather than academic qualifications. Those students had an average SAT score of 952 compared to the national average of 900 among all students. However, their SAT scores were well below UC Berkeley's average of nearly 1200. More than 70 percent of the black students failed to graduate from UC Berkeley (Sowell 1993: 144). Not far from UC Berkeley is San Jose State University, not one of the top-tier colleges, but nonetheless respectable. More than 70 percent of its black students fail to graduate. The black students who might have been successful at San Jose State University have been recruited to UC Berkeley and elsewhere where they have been made artificial failures. This pattern is one of the consequences of trying to use racial preferences to make a student body reflect the relative importance of different ethnic groups in the general population. There is a mismatch between black student qualifications and those of other students when the wrong students are recruited to the wrong universities. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 731 Registered: 8-2001 |
Art, I don't disagree that other factors should be looked at in making a decision. One's academic career can include looking at "after school" activities such as sports, drama school, charity programs, honor roll and such. Possibly even things done outside the school such as community work. But race should never be considered. In fact it shouldn't even be on the application. Sean, Thank you for the info on the Japanese and Chinese school systems. I had no idea how these work despite spending time in Japan for a summer. Maybe Martin can comment on the German school system about how much they spend since I am not sure. I believe they spend about what we do per capita. I attended a German school up until grade 4 when my parents moved to the US. The American public school system was a joke. The things I learned in 3rd grade in terms of math weren't offered in the US until 5 or 6th grade. In first grade in Germany I was taught to write in cursive (sp?) with an ink pen. We got in trouble if we didn't load the ink cartridge properly and spilled the ink. I see my little cousin drawing with crayons in first grade and trying to read "See Spot Run". Well behind the ability of a German school kid's proficiency at reading a writing. I learned nothing for two and half years but was having a hell of a good time at it. It was only when we got a Danish exchange student that the school asked my mother to help out. She was mortified to find me throwing paper airplanes in a large class room (open classroom) with 59 students and two teachers yelling across the room. I was yanked that day and sent to a private German school here in DC. My fun was over. I won't hold the German school system up as being perfect but they do a decent job. In some areas of Germany (Martin can elaborate) a decision is made by 4th grade or so, if that student is college material. If not he or she is steered to vocational schools and apprenticeships. Much too early in my opinion. Getting back to affirmative action...read the following article written by Dr. Walter Williams, who is a nationally syndicated columnist, and my economics professor in under grad. He is also black! http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj17n1-1.html My biggest problem is that AA looks at race as a whole and not at the individual. Should a disadvantaged coal miner�s son from West Virginia lose out to an African American surgeons son in New York City. We aren't looking at disadvantaged people but races. | ||
| Scott Larmer (Larmer)
New member Username: Larmer Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2003 |
"scott, my point is that AA is about fighting discrimination, racism and segregation and not about promoting someone unqualified to fill the position. AA is not equality, but where in this country is equality? once you get past race, you then have discrimination from gender, religion, and ethnic background." What kind of equality do you want? Do you want equality in opportunity, or equality in results? In my opinion, AA is trying to achieve an equality in results...and I don't think that's possible or even ideal. Just because you let x% of minority applicants to various programs does not necessarily mean that they will pan out and deliver. The goal, in my opinion, should be an equality in opportunity. That being the case, a system where preferences/points/ additional weight being given to someone based on skin color reeks of unfairness. Middle class white students who may be first generation college students (as I was) get lost at sea. Why? We aren't a minority. We don't live in a trailer or in the hood. Our parents can't give money to build a library and thus guarantee acceptance. more importantly, we can't afford to just have dad write a check and send us off to private school. In many instances, they also make too much for scholarships but not enough to just pay for school. Good luck finding a scholarship. if you want equality of opportunity, then applicants should be evaluated based on their ability to meet the educational requirements of entrance to the university. If your grades, test scores, and extracurriculars meet the admissions committee standards, congratulations. If not, apply elsewhere. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 193 Registered: 5-2002 |
Art - I agree that looking at more than grades in test scores is a great idea, although I don't think that race, religion, etc. should be one of the things college admission officers take into account. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 192 Registered: 5-2002 |
I totally agree with you Jon. More money definitely does not need to be thrown at the schools - at this point at least. Where we are now, more money will just go down the drain faster than it already does. This is not a very general example, that can be applied everywhere, but I'm sure things like this go on all the time... At my school, they received a grant a few years back for "technology". Hey, it was the big thing, and they wanted students to start learning with technology. Ok, so they go and buy 20 digital video cameras and probably 100 laptops. 4 or so years later, around 4 of these cameras work. Many of the laptops are broken, and they are outdated and definitely not taken care of well. Even when this material did work, it was not used well. Mainly general level classes and tech-level kids used this stuff for essentially screw off projects that really taught them nothing. Money is be ing wasted in education all the time. Personally, I think that it would help a district immensely if for example a retired CEO was the superintendant rather than a teacher who was in the system for 20 years prior to being chosen superintendent. I am actually pretty lucky, and have a lot of good teachers, but at the same time there are many BAD teachers that should not be teaching. I understand that it is not always possible to get the best/smartest teachers, but in higher level classes it would be nice if 90% of the class was not smarter than the teacher or correcting them all of the time. General level classes are a joke as well. It is basically babysitting. The kids in these classes usually have no motivation and are not the best behaved, and the teachers usually just try their best to push them through school so that they can graduate. Very rarely is an effort made to improve their reading/writing/math skills beyond basic levels. They are viewed mainly as failures or "not cut out for school" and pushed along. It is quite sad, really. I think that allowing competition (vouchers) between schools would actually be helpful. New administrators with business backgrounds who could be financially responsible and spend money on things that were actually useful would be great as well. This is also from a personal standpoint, but I think that we (as a country) are seriously limiting ourselves with the educations of the top caliber students. For me, no advanced classes were available until 6-8th grade. Even then, only "fast math" and advanced English/Literature courses were available. Even these opportunities, as well as the one's with advanced classes in high school, really limit a lot of people. Think how much smarter the best and future leaders of our nation could be if we started testing and challenging (really challenging, not just offering "advanced" or "accelerated" courses) from 1st grade on? I truly believe that students have no limits to their potential, and that algebra could be taught and understood in for example the 3rd or 5th grade if the students and teachers had the desire to make it work. Sorry for the rant at the end, and hope that I didn't come off sounding too egotistical or anything, but I am in the system now, and have my complaints. It also seems like nothing is being done, but hopefully we as a generation will have an affect on this when we get older. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1940 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jon: You answer my own concerns with your post. We don't provide certain minorities with an equal opportunity. We refuse to provide that opportunity, and then we piss and moan when we then attempt to correct it with affirmative action. Bottom line, since we won't do the former, we do the latter. End result of about the same, with a few abreations (Cosby's kid is a prime example of that), but the end result of appropriate. As to the argument that the best record should define who gets into a good school: BS. I was fortunate enough to get a great LSAT score. I had average grades in college. I was able to start at a great school because of the LSAT scores. People aren't their paper record. If they were: no boys will be in college by 2060 (apparently there are studies which proof this idea), the enrollment will be all female. While I like women a lot, I don't think that would be a good idea for our country. The idea of looking at more than just grades and test scores is a good one, and shouldn't in my humble opinion cause this big stir. Art | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
Junior Member Username: Agracer Post Number: 234 Registered: 2-2003 |
Yet some 14 year old kid from Xuikou who grew up in a grass hut wins a national math competition and kicks our #$%. How do you explain that! While this is true to an extent, many poeple don't realize that only the top 10% of asians (Japan, Korea, China) go on to higher education, while 90% or more of American's qualify for college (from a local Juco to Harvard). While the American education system may not be perfect, the Asian model is no better. Read some history about successful Japanese business men. The competition to be #1 starts in pre-school, and carries all the way through college. Only the BEST of each level go on to the next level. Let's take grade school. Virtually all students who get through the 6th grade will move on to 7th grade in the US. In Asia, this does not happen. Only the top 10-20% move up to the next level. The rest go to trade school, or lesser schools and become the worker bee's. HS to college, same thing. The Asian education system only seems better because only the top move up to higher education. Think how much better a school would look on standarize testing if only the honors students were allowed to take the test? Jon, great posts I couldn't agree more with everything else you've written. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 211 Registered: 4-2001 |
This decision really says, descrimination is Ok just don't be obvious about it. Who decides and by what process what group gets the extra now invisible but real points? All blacks, even those who just got off the boat from Haiti? All Hispanics even rich kids from Madrid? Is is racial or ethnic diversity that is now required? Why Hispanics and not Asians, Jews, Poles, Italians etc etc. What about mixed races and ethicnicity? Would my white daughter have a better chance at Harvard if she married an Hispanic and use his legal name? Does racial diversity apply to the NBA? Collage faculty? conservatives balanced with the lefties? What a mess! | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 730 Registered: 8-2001 |
Anthony, It's not the amount of money we spend but the areas we spend it on ($2 billion a year goes to DC to the Deparment of Education and never leaves that building). We spend ten times the per capita income the Chinese do on education. Yet some 14 year old kid from Xuikou who grew up in a grass hut wins a national math competition and kicks our #$%. How do you explain that! I am not trying to promote the virtues of a communist governement but where you spend it matters more than how you spend it. The other problem is that there is no competition among schools. Parents have no choice where their kids go to school unless they have money. Teachers are under no motivation to teach and fare no threat of being fired for not doing their job. If you could choose your school (public) then schools and teachers would compete for your child. School budgets in many states are set by the number of children attending. More children more money so hence competition would exist for your child. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 729 Registered: 8-2001 |
Not true at all. Allowing unqualified students into a university sets them up for failure because they can't handle the curiculum. There was a noted study done by Harvard in conjunction with several other noted universities including Michigan and UCLA a few years back that came to the conclusion that black students who would not have otherwise gained admissions struggled in greater numbers and dropped out. Harvard itself did another study that looked only at it's minority popluation and found the same. Students who would have come up short, but were admitted because of their minority status had lower grades, higher drop out rates and took longer to graduate. All you are doing Martin is setting these poor kids up for more failure when tjhey enter the workforce. Then we will have to solve the problem of them struggling to get a job. What's next? Are we going to devise a point system that allows an unqualified Harvard graduate to get an extra 20 points at Goldman Sachs on his emplyment app because he failed several advanced calculus courses due to his poorly funded grade school years. Makes no sense at all. The problem needs to be eliminated at it's root or it will always exist and we always have to have a system in place that adds brownie points for the disadvantaged. If you want to get rid of the disadvantaged there is no "quick" fix. Again....you are trying to get an equal outcome and this is not only wrong but impossible. You can give a Harvard grad any little piece of paper you want saying he got a degree but if he didn't understand the work or got poor grades he ain't gonna stay at Goldman Sachs too long. | ||
| Anthony Griffin (Redjeeper)
New member Username: Redjeeper Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2002 |
The biggest problem I see in our country is the disproportionate (sp) amount of money that is spent on the military and how little is spent on education. A good education is the cornerstone of being a successful adult. You will still have lazy people that won't work or act right no matter what race they are. My mother was a teacher in the the public school system and yet I send my son to a private christian school. That goes to show you how much faith I have in our schools. The fact that some black people choose to sell crack or play sports is indicative of the surroundings that they were brought up in. I was fortunate enough to be brought up in a middle class home and saw other avenues for my personal success. Afirmative Action may be an unfair practice for some people but in some instances it is the only way for a minority to get a good education. Some people can't afford to pay tuition at the top schools in the country while others can. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4938 Registered: 5-2001 |
JOn, I would like to know how you realy feel about this subject | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4937 Registered: 5-2001 |
Affirmative Action is a necessary tool to bridge the gap between minorities. I agree with this statement. Affirmative Action is racism the other way around. I agree with this statement as well. Your problem lies in 1st Grade to College. If you do not educate properly and have school districts with good and bad schools you will never break the cycle. You will never be able to get rid of a need for AA. If you manage to give the same education to ALL students of ALL colors and races and backgrounds there will be no need for AA. Sicne the school system in the US is substandard and you hear nothing but excuses for the poor system from Washington (no matter what party) this will not change and you better get used to AA. AA is a quick fix solution to a problem that none of the politicians want to tackle since they all think in 4 year terms and revising the education system will not bear fruits till 12 years later and cost a tremendous amount of money. | ||
| Anthony Griffin (Redjeeper)
New member Username: Redjeeper Post Number: 24 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thank you Jon. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 728 Registered: 8-2001 |
DES and ART, I would love to get into a nice long debate on this one but haven't the time. Many of the claims made here are totally inaccurate. The bottom line is that ones entrance into a University should be based SOLEY on your academic achievements and your ability to do well in college. PERIOD! If you want to claim that blacks and minorities come from disadvantaged backgrounds (poor social conditions, underfunded schools, etc) than redress those issue to make a level playing field. You don't redress discrimination against one group by discriminating against another, even when the other group caused that discrimination. Discrimination against anyone based on the color of his or her skin is wrong. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. DES, do you agree with the above statement or NOT? By your line of thinking then we should allow slavery of white people in order to redress the inequities of blacks who were enslaved. Too many of you like to read one side of the story and take it as fact. Liberals only like to read liberal or leftists stuff that supports their belief and the right won't read anything but conservative stuff to support their viewpoints. DES, you and others need to read both sides of the debate and then make an educated decision based on FACTS, not your liberal (or conservative) dribble that comes from blatantly biased sources. You have to be joking. Is this the same Dr. Welsing who has stated on the record that Gangsta Rap was invented by the Jews as a way to destroy the black community and to brain wash the white community into thinking blacks are "trash" so that one day we whites can use the same argument to gas a few million blacks like Hitler did with the Jews. Read something a little less biased than the work of a person who has publicly stated her admiration of Louis Farrakhan. Who is a black version of Hitler! The argument that we should allow discrimination against a race to resolve inequities of the past or present is totally STUPID idea. Also some of you continually blast big corporations and business people in general as only being concerned with making money. Well if that is true (and I won't deny this) than why in the hell would a business have an anti diversity program in place to discriminate against hiring minorities. Art, you claim diversity helps the work place and has many benefits. Why would a business owner want to discriminate against hiring minorities when there is clearly a benefit from doing so? Some of you are talking out of both sides of your mouth! You argue that hiring minorities and creating a diverse workforce is good for business BUT then you blast businesses for only caring about making money. If a diverse workforce makes a business more profitable than why would they discriminate? You arguments are contradictory. Lastly, and I will tread very lightly on this subject, why in the hell is ok to say one race is athletically superior to another. Why is ok to say that white folks who play in the NBA are slow, can't jump and athletically inferior to black athletes? Is this right? Is it ok to make this statement about a particular race's intellectual superiority or inferiority? Lastly, some of you need to stop making stupid stereotype remarks. Statements such as associating all black people as crack dealing felons whose only chance in life is the NBA or calling them a bunch of gansta rappers doesn't have any place in an educated debate. Even if all that were true (and it's not) and 99% of blacks fit your stereotype it is still wrong for a college admissions officer to deny that 1% entry into university if they are academically qualified. Affirmative action, when it was first devised, was a noble effort to ensure everyone had equal access to succeed in life without being hampered by their skin color. However the program evolved from being an equal access and opportunity booster to an equal outcome program. Under this line of thinking maybe we should allow white people to take growth hormones and steroids so they can achieve parity in professional sports like the NBA so that no team has more black players than white ones. Pretty stupid isn't it? I don't deny that discrimination takes place every day and that some classes of people are hurt by it. Nor do I think it's ok to turn a blind eye to it. But the left continually wants to address (or redress) the symptom not the problem causing the symptom. If you believe that blacks and other minorities aren't given the opportunities to attend decent schools before college than fight for that cause. Allowing them to get favorable admission becasue of this is never going to get rid of the problem only the symptom. This is turn will continue to foster even more hate and bais from people. Equal opportunity and equal OUTCOME are not the same. DON'T CONFUSE THE TWO!!! Regards, Jon P. Kofod | ||
| JT (Mightymagician)
Junior Member Username: Mightymagician Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2002 |
scott, my point is that AA is about fighting discrimination, racism and segregation and not about promoting someone unqualified to fill the position. AA is not equality, but where in this country is equality? once you get past race, you then have discrimination from gender, religion, and ethnic background. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 658 Registered: 11-2002 |
Anthony, I see we are actually on the same page. Glad to see there are people of all races that understand what the real problem is. I agree there is still much work that needs to be done to make our society equal. I am of the belief that these sort of problems can only be remedied by changing the way people think. AA will not accomplish this. IMO it will only serve to further divide us. The only way we can change peoples thinking is by doing the right thing which is to act as truely equal people. I think if we do that it will eventually become a part of our collective thinking. | ||
| Anthony Griffin (Redjeeper)
New member Username: Redjeeper Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2002 |
Charles, it would be nice to see a world where race didn't matter and everyone would have a fair shot in life. I really hate to see people make generalizations about black people. My wife and I live in a predominately white area because I want my son to avoid the some of the things that you guys spoke about. I want him to go to a good college where he will be around people of all cultures, instead of just blacks. The world does not revolve around just one culture. At his preschool, the kids are learning different languages at the age of three. You can rest assured that if he beats a white student for a spot in college, it will be because he is qualified, not because he is Black. By the way, I am also half Sicilian. If race were not an issue in this society, then we wouldn't need AA, but since it is then some things may never change. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 4769 Registered: 8-2002 |
Anthony, these comments aren't representative of most owners - there is barely a considerable amount of replies here considering how many users are registered for this site... Taek, my point was that, even if affirmative action seems unfair to some, the whole rest of the world is unfair to those who 'benefit' from affirmative action, so yeah, if it really is unfair, i don't care; non-whites will continue to face unjust circumstances and situations in almost every corner of the world... Let freedom ring... ...yeah, sure, as long as it's for middle and upper class american white guys. They put affirmative action in place just to make minorities "feel better" and they hold it over non-whites when they begin to get "uppity"... Oh, man, i need to stop now before i go into a Dennis Miller-like rant... i always tell myself i won't get involved in these threads... Sigh... | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 656 Registered: 11-2002 |
Anthony, I don't think anyone here is agaist black people. This is not an attack on any one race, it is an attack on unfair policies. I suspect you also see that AA is not true equality. I certainly understand why some people think it is a good idea but the fact is at some point we will have to actually be equal. At what point do we decide we no longer need AA and let everyone be judged on thier own merits? If the roles were reversed I think you would probably have a different view as to when that is. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 655 Registered: 11-2002 |
Scott, well said! Faisal I would like to respond to this "The suggestion that colleges accept all applications blind is perfect--in an ideal world. But it's flawed here. Not everyt neighborhood offers the same level of education in the public school system. Those at the bottom are unlikely to get in without AA, hurting their chances in life and their children's chances, and costing society a lot more in the long run." That statement identifies the real problem here which is the public school system. AA is not the way to solve this problem. Also keep in mind that the last part of your statement also applies to the middle class white student that is refused entry to college. I am sure thier's and thier childrens chances in life are equally as important as the minorities you defend. The fact is we will never become equal until we start thinking equal and that means biased policies like AA need to go! IMO AA can only create more divisions between the races. | ||
| Anthony Griffin (Redjeeper)
New member Username: Redjeeper Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2002 |
As a black man in America, I am glad that someone used common sense and let Afirmative Action remain in place. As a side note, I am also from Mississippi and all of us are not a bunch of beer swilling hilbillies. I went to a historically black university not because I wanted to, but my father refused to let me go to Mississippi State University because of the same type of thinking about minorities that exist on this board. I am Black and I can't play basketball or throw a football, but I play a mean round of golf. I am a business owner and well educated, I have never seen crack or any other type of drug for that matter. I am not low classed or stupid in any form or fashion. So I guess your theories about Black people are all wrong. DES, I have more respect for you than any other person on this board after listening to these comments. If you guys are representitive of how most Ferrari owners think. I will gladly remove myself from this board. Coming down from my soapbox. | ||
| John A (Jarends)
Member Username: Jarends Post Number: 260 Registered: 7-2001 |
It's a sad day for normal people in this country. Now the Supreme Court is making law not interpeting. Anyway, living in NJ give me an idea of where this liberal front is taking all of us. | ||
| Scott Larmer (Larmer)
New member Username: Larmer Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2003 |
"the problem that needs to be rectified is racism, not slavery. about your law school, i understand that is a problem, as i have heard that about some other schools too. what i dont understand is where the students you mention come from. grad school is for people that want to be there, even in an AA program it seems you can weed the ones that lack the desire out." Someone earlier mentioned something about AA being used to rectify the 400 years of slavery, racism, yadda yadda yadda. I didn't say it was the sole purpose for AA, but simply made reference to it as it always comes up as a justification. As for your comment about desire, I don't see your point. I never claimed that the people I went to school with were forced to go to law school. Yeah, they want to go to law school. The problem is that they can't get into the law schools of their choice without the crutch of being black. So the desire is clearly there, it's the ability to jump the relevant hurdles that is the problem. Now you may say that once they are there, they will get weeded out by the academically superior. Unfortunately, that will not/does not happen. As I mentioned earlier, the black students didn't make journals and their grades were not outstanding. But you know what? You can bet your ass that each and every one of them had plenty of callbacks and offers. Why? Because it's smoke and mirrors. Nothing backs up the stated "commitment to diversity" than snatching up whatever you can. So you get some minority law students who will eventually get offers for roughly the same reason. Then what do you do? Fire them when they don't perform? You've got a lawsuit coming then. Get on their ass for not putting out? Then you get more of the "white people treat me differently than the other associates because I'm black." I'm sure people will disagree, but that's what I and many of my peers have witnessed while we were in school...I wonder how many of the people on here who will claim otherwise are involved in the hiring decisions of their firm at a substantive level. | ||
| JT (Mightymagician)
Junior Member Username: Mightymagician Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeff, The few black people in pro sports are supposed to balance a population of millions? How many black people do you know in a professional setting talk to you in ebonics? Ricky, disadvantaged? for some yes. dumb? no. I agree that all applications should be "blind", but in reality, i dont think that will ever be the case. Scott, the problem that needs to be rectified is racism, not slavery. about your law school, i understand that is a problem, as i have heard that about some other schools too. what i dont understand is where the students you mention come from. grad school is for people that want to be there, even in an AA program it seems you can weed the ones that lack the desire out. and to those that think that you are losing your spot in college to a "football tossing, basketbal-dribbling" black person, the school has a number of alotted athletic scholarships. i dont think that has anything to do with the general student body, unless it is a limited space competitive program like architecture, Law, medicine, etc. so unless you are also a "football tossing, basketball dribbling" whatever you are, athletics has little to do with it. you are stereotyping black people to a sad degree. the vast majority of african americans do not run, jump, or shoot into that seat in the classroom. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 180 Registered: 5-2003 |
Assimilation... What a great word. Perhaps you are correct in using the "melting pot" anology. I know that I have more respect for Mr. Powell because of the manner in which he speaks. No ebonics or slang. I notice that the booming RAP music only offends most of the middle class when exposed to it. I agree that if a minority culture would make more of an effort to "assimilate" into the mainstream American culture there would be less resistance. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 406 Registered: 2-2001 |
Melting pot? While pretty much all of the food groups are represented, the US couldn't be less homogenous in a number of respects. Many people celebrate their cultural differences while simultaneously becoming offended when these differences are acknowledged by those not of the same culture. This can often lead to a form of segregation. Intended or otherwise. Further, there is a relatively universal language and way of speaking in the US business world (for which a college education can come in handy when attempting to gain entry) that has existed for many years. Unfortunately, or not, this doesn't coincide with various ethnic colloquialisms. Visit Canada and people (black, brown, white, yellow ...) say "oot and aboot" just as Lord Stanley intended. Experience w/UK, while limited, seems to offer a similar level of assimilation. At the expense of simplicity (as certainly there are other inequities to remedy), would suggest that if this were the case in the US, AA may be rendered obsolete. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 179 Registered: 5-2003 |
DAMM Scott.. I am speechless... BRAVO !!!! well said and concise. Let me add that I am so happy to see Ferrari owners that can speak on matters other than brand of Spark plug or where you golf. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 178 Registered: 5-2003 |
JT.. I guess that part of my point. Unless all schools are equal then there should be a form of AA for every race inculding white. I went to the most average high school in my city. The Catholic high school ( St. Xavier) was much higher rated and better funded. So should I have gotten some form of break when going against a St X. student for college admin? Of course not. Rich kids get breaks and that fine with me. I beleive in the class system. I miss the 50's where the class system made you want to work your way up to a better life. Today everyone thinks we should be equal from birth.... the legacy of the Liberals. I started out Very middle class and worked my way to success. My career path ended up having nothing to do with my college education. I was studying to be a music teacher. I ended up in electronics..LOL. | ||
| Scott Larmer (Larmer)
New member Username: Larmer Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2003 |
there are plenty of middle class black people applying to professional school who wouldn't have a snowball's chance in Hell at getting admitted if they were white. case in point- my law school. Top 20 school with roughly 20% of the class being a minority (read that as black as we hardly had any other kind of minority). Not a single one was able to successfully write on to a journal. Only 1 was able to make Dean's List. And from what some of them told me about their application numbers (lsat and gpa), you knew the fix was in. More evidence: upper middle class black kid from northern va, went to UVA for college (and I knew her when I was there), had a 3.0 in the total jock major (sociology), and average a 150 on the lsat (148 and 152). Not only did she get into Vanderbilt for law school, but she got in to Duke with a partial scholarship. I on the other hand, had a 3.6 in a difficult major at UVA and a 160+ on my lsat and got dinged in about 3 weeks. I'm sure you'll say that none of this matters because I got in somewhere. Whatever. The fact is that more capable white students are routinely denied opportunities to less qualified black applicants. It is ridiculous to think that letting academically subpar middle-class blacks into grad school can rectify the problem of slavery...which ended IIRC some 138 yrs ago. There needs to be a change in the minority communities from the athlete/entertainer/drug route to education, and handouts to kids who will not cut it in school without extraordinary special programs not available to other students is an insulting way to accomplish that result in my opinion...and even then, they still barely get by. In the end, the true middle-class white students get the shaft. They don't have the money to buy their way into school. They don't come from legacies. They can't run a 4.2 40 yard dash or dunk from the free throw line. And they can't get any redress from the courts. | ||
| Robert Callahan (Rcallahan)
Junior Member Username: Rcallahan Post Number: 222 Registered: 7-2002 |
hey you guys, with out AA who would be our president?? | ||
| JT (Mightymagician)
Junior Member Username: Mightymagician Post Number: 89 Registered: 11-2002 |
true. alot of them did succeed without AA. They do want to acheive on their own merits, and need that opportunity to do so. a 3.5 GPA from the "ghetto" school is going to be looked at differently than the 3.5 from another, because some colleges look at the quality of education of the schools, or their 'scores'. the student has little control over what high school they attend, and even less control on the scores used to ration the funding for a better education. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 300 Registered: 3-2003 |
No, we are saying that they need help because despite being born equally intelligent and capable, they are crapped upon by society and given less of an education and deprived of the ability to compete on an equal footing. So we give them a leg up and hope that in a generation's time, there is parity. AA will not help those who lack desire. It will help those who have the desire and the motivation, but would still be denied otherwise because they are born into a vicious circle of poverty and discrimination. Each individual is indeed different. But there are common base levels for everything. From going on fair rides to driving a car to conducting open-heart surgery. General policies may indeed benefit some more than others, but it's the best solution so far, IMO. In an ideal world, yes, every single teeny weeny factor including the lack of some AP classes should indeed be factored into the decision making process. Until we get to this point, though, the best we have are broad-stroke policies. This is one of the good ones IMO. The suggestion that colleges accept all applications blind is perfect--in an ideal world. But it's flawed here. Not everyt neighborhood offers the same level of education in the public school system. Those at the bottom are unlikely to get in without AA, hurting their chances in life and their children's chances, and costing society a lot more in the long run. Hopefully, socio-economic levels will soon reach parity and AA and the pain it causes to those glossed over will soon end. I like wm hart's post the best. If anything would make me change my opinion on AA, it would be his reasoning. But so far, inasmuch as we do have abominable schooling, it only reinforces my conviction of the need for AA. | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 158 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think AA just creates division and resentment. If everyone wants to be treated as equals, this surely won't help. People should be judged on there own merits. Who cares what the ethnic make up of your class is, it should be the most qualified people that applied, same goes for getting a job. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 191 Registered: 5-2002 |
Please? It is simple, we (white middle-America) ARE at a disadvantage. We are passed over for less-qualified minority applicants. You say: "its saddens me to know that some of you guys think african americans in general are dumb and should stay" But by saying this and making the argument you are making, you are just furthering this assumption. You are saying that they need help because they are dumb and disadvantaged. The truth is 99% of people in this country have the opportunity to compete for spots at the top colleges in the country. Just because someone's desire is lacking does not mean they should get a spot in place of someone else actually cared and worked hard. People living in poor areas with undefunded public schools may have to jump higher hurdles to get where they want to be, but we can not try to create an equalizer for this with affirmative action policies because that quite simply would not work. Each individual case is different and adopting a general policy such as points systems or even preferential selection for minority or any other applicant or candidate is inadequate and unfair as it benefits the person who is not at a disadvantage just as much as the person who is at a disadvantage. On the whole, it would be much more fair to let everything be equal, the way it is, without trying to create artificial processes to equalize everything. Why do minorities get these, but not middle class America? If you are going to start trying to make everything equal, should I get some points for not having as many AP classes offered as rich-town school #4? Or for having worse teachers than school Z in the town 30 minutes down the road? This process is unrealistic and shouldn't be enacted for only one small section of the populace. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 176 Registered: 5-2003 |
This thread has strayed from the point. All the courts did today was close one door for AA and open another. Nothing was gained for the students that will be trying to get an education in a few months time. It's funny that the best idea came from a high school aged poster. Make college apps "blind". No race or background. Just how you scored and what you achieved up to that point. How is that for equal? I am sure that Art will say the Black students are not given a chance to achieve in high school. Perhaps it is all balanced out by the Millions of dollars that hundreds of black athletes make in professional sports each year. As a young white man I was not as good at basket ball as most of my black peers. Should the NBA put me on a team just to make it equal? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 949 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jeff- I bled so much I've run out of tupperware to catch the dribble; I won't inundate you with some belabored diatribe about my own hardships, the times I've offered academic help/tutoring, etc. to others in my community b/c I know, first hand, what a •••• hole the public school system is, and I won't bore you, hopefully to tears of hysterical laughter, about the finincial burdon that is the pursuit of a contemporary education. It's apparent to me that you've carved your niche in your piece of woodwork, and maybe it's bordom, or plain maliase that made you creak out of it, but oyur comments are beyond visceral, and if you mean them, illustrate graphically your assuations; political, social, and personal. Like I said at the begining of this thread, Affirmative action is a clever bandaid to mask the pussing infected sore that is public education. We can rattle of figures all day long, but in my working class experience, if I wanted contemporary texts for my AP classes in high school (i.e., publisehd w/in the last 5 years) I had to pay for them, out of pocket. Further, in the classes that were only offered in the regular curriculum, the newest books dated from the 60's. We all owe our children, every one of them, an equal education, and here in CA, school districts get monies by way of property tax; do the math, and it's simple to see who gets the better end of the bargain. I lived in the inner city, both here and in NYC, and the only reason I didn't get into some serious •••• is b/c white boys weren't welcome, and that was luck. The pressure today, and then, is tremendous and at 12, 13, 14 you limited sense of self bodes to that constricting pressure. Pardon me, my triage nurse is calling... | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 157 Registered: 9-2002 |
Doesn't accepting a degree from a school that let you in even though you are less qualified than others seem a little tainted? Kind of like graduating an athlete because he is great at his sport, but should never have gotten in to the school much less graduate from it.In the real world after school, this may have an affect on who hires this person. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 175 Registered: 5-2003 |
JT.. I don't think African Americans are dumb. I Have great respect for an educated, successful black man. But for the rest that scream about how much is owed to them I have nothing but contempt. Perhaps Mr.Powell is only a white man in makeup? There are many african Americans that have proven you can succeed without AA or by placing blame on the white race. | ||
| JT (Mightymagician)
Junior Member Username: Mightymagician Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2002 |
its saddens me to know that some of you guys think african americans in general are dumb and should stay that way. you want keep them in underfunded public schools and not give them a chance to attend a decent college so they can have an opportunity to change the situation they were born into, of which they have no control? and you think you are disadvantaged because one school in the country told you to try again next year? please.. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 174 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hubert.. My Heart does not bleed as much as some liberals. I worked in the Ghetto of Cincinnati during my College days at a furniture store. I also lived in South Florida during the Cuban Boatlift. Boy what a difference. The Cubans were rough, uneducated and unwelcome. Now, 15 years later, they have built a sociey and expect only the best from themselves.The Vine Street area of Cincy is still a ghetto. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 947 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>AS for the underfunding of Ghetto schools.. Funds are usually decided by ratio of benifit. Should we spend more money on schools that would show lower results? Why..? Guilt.? Thats not a good business plan for the Future<< Wow, you're a class act, pal. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 173 Registered: 5-2003 |
AS for the underfunding of Ghetto schools.. Funds are usually decided by ratio of benifit. Should we spend more money on schools that would show lower results? Why..? Guilt.? Thats not a good business plan for the Future | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 172 Registered: 5-2003 |
Art.. we do not owe the Blacks nor the Jews anything in life. They were sold into slavery by their own kind and we have carried the Jewish burden for way to many years at the expense of more than a few American lives. We are hated in the middle East for our support of a nation we have no use for. And the Black culture has been more of a drain on our social programs than any other single race. Living in South Florida I can say from first hand experience that even the Cubans that came here took less than a Decade to clean up their act and build a society that you can be proud of. I don't feel guilt for what went on in the past and I believe that one of our most basic freedoms should be the right to choose whom we interact with. If a culture or a race is willing to follow the rules of society Then I welcome them.. but we owe no one race anything. let's not forget that the Jews were given a chance to leave Germany.. they chose not to or were not welcome in the places many tried to enter | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1933 Registered: 6-2001 |
You can find the actual decisions on Findlaw.com. As to those who feel that because they didn't do anything that they personally shouldn't be punished, remember that in a zero sum game someone has to lose. My question is this: Since we generally under fund ghetto schools, we have kept, though various governmental policies, certain minorities from gaining as much as the majority, who should bear the risk? If indeed, those admitted to good schools are underserving, the talent will out, and after a few years, time will take care of matters. If on the other hand, what we are arguing over is admission to the upper middle class, why not give to those who we've •••• on? Art | ||
| K. Wesley DeLoach (Wesleyd)
New member Username: Wesleyd Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2002 |
Just to show more about what the decision actually was: ***** From Yahoo News: The nation's highest court upheld the University of Michigan's affirmative action policy that favors minorities who apply to its law school, but struck down the program for its undergraduate college because it went too far in providing an advantage to blacks, Hispanics and Native Americans. In upholding the law school's policy, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said for the majority in the 5-4 ruling that student body diversity is a compelling state interest that can justify use of race in admissions decisions ***** In the undergraduate case, Chief Justice William Rehnquist (news - web sites) declared for the majority in the 6-3 ruling that the manner in which the university considered the race of applicants violated the constitutional equal protection provisions. In the undergraduate case, black, Hispanic and Native American applicants get 20 extra points out of a possible 150 points under a selection index that considers academics, test scores and other factors, including race. Rehnquist said the use of race was not "narrowly tailored" to achieve the university's asserted interest in diversity. He specifically criticized the 20 points given to minority applications. In the law school case, the admissions process does not involve a point system, but the university seeks the enrollment of a "critical mass" of minority students, which has ranged between 10 percent and 17 percent of each class. ***** Note, the undergraduate policy, which contained the points mentioned in the first post, was actually ruled against. Here is the link to the news item: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20030624/ts_nm/court_race_dc | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 170 Registered: 5-2003 |
Bill.. My remarks were a bit rough. But since the AA is aimed at mostly Blk students It did seem correct. I am not saying that they are evil I am saying that if we promote them due only to althletic ability and being lowerclass incomes then youa re not going to get the best. What you will get are students that are riding on Foorball and Basketball. And that is often a dead end. Sorry If I seemed too rough | ||
| K. Wesley DeLoach (Wesleyd)
New member Username: Wesleyd Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2002 |
"The Liberals on the Supreme Court screwed us all again" OK, so I took a look over a the Supreme Court website since I believed this was pretty much a republican based court. http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/about.html Let's see.......... Rehnquist - nominated by Reagan Stevens - Ford O'Connor - Reagan Scalia - Reagan Kennedy - Reagan Souter - Bush Thomas - Bush Ginsburg - Clinton Breyer - Clinton Sure doesn't look to be a very liberal court to me. I do not know the particulars of the case, and cannot state whether UM deserves the actions taken. However, I'm leaning towards the Art and DES side in this discussion of the issue. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 762 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bill, I completely agree that AA at the UG level really is late. Public schooling in this country is generally apalling, and that's where the biggest changes need to be. Provide common levels of education from the start, and AA wouldn't be in place, as it would be unnecessary. --Dan | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1307 Registered: 12-2001 |
I thought a little more about this, and some of your remarks, Jeff, like "basketball bouncing uneducated people" and grads "selling the crack... in the hood" do smack of, well, yes indeedy, a bit of hostility against blacks. Tell you this, i've seen a huge change in black youth in the past 20 years in NYC; where once there was hostility, and distrust, there is a certain common ground in understanding the importance of education and self-improvement. The kids themselves understand that being the baddest dude is bullshit, and that the drug dealers and cool guys are all pretty much losers in the end. The problem i have with affirmative action at the college level is that it is far too late. By the time someone is 18, "equalizing" past inequality is pretty much what others have said, just another form of racism. Our public schools are appalling, and there seems to be nothing that will change that. I am not a bleeding heart liberal, don't want my tax money spent on the dole for others, but at the same time, my heart goes out to these kids, black or white, that are in schools which function as little more than holding pens. I spend a day or two every once in a while visiting these schools and there seems to be so little hope of anything different. (Every once i a while you see a kid who is just outstanding in every way, despite his surroundings but that is truly the exception, and not what affirmative action really responds to). If we could do something to change that, i don't think we would have to compensate by punishing otherwise eligible candidates later in the process. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
Junior Member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 190 Registered: 5-2002 |
You clamor for equality, yet you want to enact policies that go completely against this principle to get there? Give me a break, folks. Equality breeds equality, and racism breeds racism, it is that simple. Affirmative Action is a RACIST, SEXIST, CLASSIST policy, and it should have no part in the United States. I will be a senior in high school next year, and this will directly affect me. Why should I be at a disadvantage when applying to top tier institutions because I am a white, middle class American from the Midwest? I propose that all college applications be blind to everything. They should look at grades, writings, scores, and recommendations, and any other relevant statistics and/or information. Even names must be kept secret during this process for obvious reasons. I also agree with Art on the basis that people's parents should not be taken into account. Again, why should I be at a disadvantage because my dad did not go to Harvard? It will be interesting to see what happens to me next year, with my applications and where I am accepted/rejected. All I can say is that it will be hard to take a rejection to a school knowing that there are people less qualified than me applying that will get in because of factors that I cannot control. | ||
| will h (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 118 Registered: 3-2003 |
"@#$% the white guy" Would you consider buying me dinner and a movie first? As Dustin Hoffman said in Dog Day Afternoon, "Kiss me ..." "The trojan-horse-television-&-other-media-outlet stereotypes are always backwards, though..." Speaking of stereotypes, IMO, the most tired stereotypes in the US media are "The Evil Business Guy Who Will Sacrifice Everything for Money," "The Insane Military Guy" and the ever popular "Evil Government Guy Perpetrating a Conspiracy." The Guys usually are white fellas. I bet these Guys even turn up in pornos. Regards, Will (White Guy/Evil Businessman) PS - Art, I appreciate & respect your post & personal experience, though I disagree with you. Your experience seems not unlike the sad reports I have received from Jewish friends over the years. One once told me, "you can never understand what it's like not to be part of the cultural majority." I have been turning that one over in my mind for years. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1216 Registered: 11-2002 |
Errr... >>This AA ruling only applies to undergrad too<< On my previous post I meant to say that the ruling affects undergrad, not grad school. That particular line came out kind of weird. Cheers | ||
| Kyle Madan (Kmadan)
New member Username: Kmadan Post Number: 44 Registered: 1-2002 |
As a recent grad school applicant who will be attending U of M in the fall, I have also experienced AA first hand. Being of East Indian descent, I am not considered an under-represented minority. Like Hubert, I was told that I would be disadvantaged and not allowed to apply for certain scholarships. One admissions person even told me not to enter my race if applying to law school for the MBA/JD program due to the fact that "whites, Jews, and Indians are about the only people that are considered well represented in law." Like wm hart and Jeffrey stated, universities are becoming liberal through faculty and administrators. This is however, resulting in liberal policies regarding student admissions and curriculum. The result is a very liberally biased educational community that is not opening the world up to people, but giving them a one-sided view. Policies like AA only bring in more liberal minded students, and the colleges of the country become that much more liberal and biased. The cycle has perpetuated to the point where universities do not accurately represent the feelings of the general public or provide a fair and balanced education. I am all for diversity, but not at the cost of equality. Everyone should get a fair shake at education, regardless of race or skin color. AA only segregates minorities more by making their race such a big issue and turns off other races from minorities. For example, as an undergraduate engineering student at UCLA, there was a minority engineering program. All the "minority" engineers would study together and get special treatment like extra tutors, a special study area, etc. Companies even had special recruiting events for them! No one else was made aware of this and I stumbled upon it by accident through some friends. Here in the year 2000, people were being educated and given job opportunities based strictly on their race. Clearly, this program was only reinforcing segregation by race - the minorities stuck together and told no one of their advantages, while everyone else (whites and Asians) studied and worked hard together to get through classes. The program in no way promoted integration and diversity, in fact, it had quite the opposite effect. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1214 Registered: 11-2002 |
What's a minority though? Most schools don't consider Asians (Indians are considered Asians) as part of the AA minority. As a matter of fact some schools have extremely stringent requirements for Asians (again, Indians inclusive). If you ask me, that's BS. This AA ruling only applies to undergrad too. Also seeing this because it's a state funded school. DES, as for your example of that crass prick who wouldn't hire a PR girl because of his prejudices... AA or not, that girl won't get hired by that guy so the point is moot. There are stupid people all over the world. Cheers | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 298 Registered: 3-2003 |
Art, DES behind you 1001%. Rgds, Faisal. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 944 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jeffrey, BTW: those cites I promised a la pub med: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Search&DB=PubMed Search using: "effects of chronic MDMA use" There's abstracts there that relay up to a 15 year case study and empirical research on MDMA. If you need help with finding the full lengths, I can get them to you, just point out the abstract that you'd like to read. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 4767 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jeffrey - i know lots of business men and women and business owners, of all different backgrounds, etc. The white ones aren't doing a whole helluva lot to 'build our future'... The non-whites, however, well... they seem to have things in order... The trojan-horse-television-&-other-media-outlet stereotypes are always backwards, though... | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 169 Registered: 5-2003 |
OMG.. Wm we agree again. Seems that many of the staff of most colleges are very pro socialist in their beliefs. The "one world" metality being spread to the youth.And Hugh... I have a clue. Given the extra points for being an athlete and points for coming from lower income backgrounds will not fill our colleges with the best people. Only lots of ethnic football tossing, basketball bouncing uneducated people that once they miss thier ride to the NBA will be doing nothing for the world. Let's give the education to those that will build our future. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 4765 Registered: 8-2002 |
True, Tim, i'll just continue to listen to employers laugh as they tell me about "the black guy" that came in their office and applied for a job, today and, even though he's fully qualified for the job, the employer will find some reason not to hire him... Or the employer that won't hire the Puerto Rican girl 'cause "you know how those Puerto Ricans are"... Or the employer who'll hire the woman rather than the man, because, "hey, i can pay her less - she's a woman, right...!?" Yeah, two wrongs don't make a right; let's get rid of any program we have in place for minorities so white society can continue to 'legally' shun minorities forever... White america is so much smarter now, than before the civil war; so much more oppressive... White america is the in-your-face racist, all the time, without ever breaking a law or bending a rule... Oppression is now, a hundred fold of what it was, before the civil war, because white america doesn't look brutish as they do it... Go read The Isis Papers, The Keys To The Colors, by Dr. Frances Cress Welsing - i read it a few years ago and it changed my life forever... i'm reading it again, now. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1931 Registered: 6-2001 |
Rpb: I beg to differ. There is a need to establish a basis for providing for those of color to get into the A schools. The Supreme Court held in their decision that the school cannot set up a two tier system for school, i.e., one for whites and Asian, and another for other minorities. The court did hold that you can take race into account in determining who you want to admit to that school. In my humble opinion, it was the right decision at the right time. Minorities in the professions provide diversity and another view point, something that is clearly needed in a world like ours. Professionals, who are minorities, that come to mind are John Cochran, John Burris who hold totally different points of view than the mainstream, but who have contributed substantially to their professions (I know many would disagree with what they've done, but the fact is that they've made law, done things which affected our society). I believe this is shear hyproacy, I hear no complaints about the legends, i.e., those who get special exemptions because their parents went to those schools, I hear no complaints about receipt of special benefits denied minorities in the middle of this century. LIfe is a balance, the court got it right. Affirmative act is redressing prior inequities. Is there any dispute that we as a nation, screwed with those of african heritage throughout the last century? An example: After world war 2, as a country we provided federally backed home loans. That program allowed many people of minor means to acquire real property at reduced interest rates. That program discriminated against those of African decent until 1970! If you resided in a neighborhood with more than two black families, the plan refused to guarantee the loans, causing higher interest rates. Net effect, low appreciation in black neighborhoods, higher appreciation in white or asian neighborhoods. We also allowed various southern states to maintain segerated schools through the 70s. The people that such illegal, immoral behavior effected are still alive, and its their kids who are now attempting to better themselves. Harvard excluded a certain number of jews through the 60s because it didn't want too many jews. That worked to the benefits of exactly those who are complaining today of this "discrimination". There has been a cultural refusal to admit what we've done and a refusal to see things set right. When I was growing up, with an anglo name, and non-religious attitude, I saw what prejudice looked like up close and personal: My army drill instructor at Ford Ord in 1968, gave a 1 hour tirade against the jewish kids respecting their sabboth. No one took the time to turn him in, no one told him that he was a racist, no one bothered to comment about how wrong it was to behave like that. I wish I'd called him on it then, but didn't. White Christain males are still getting some benefits: A good many of our schools impose higher standards upon Asians who want to get into schools than they do whites, a good many schools impose higher standards on females than they do on males. They do that to ensure a good balance. I hear no one complaining about those forms of "discrimination" . I wonder why? Prejudice is still here, and we still have to provide assistance to those who continue to suffer from it. These two decisions are such that while they don't allow quotas, they do allow additional effort to solicit, to enrole and help those who have very well end up with a productive life in our society. By the way, the court did strike the automatic 20 points given to minorities. Sorry for the rant. Art | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3192 Registered: 6-2001 |
DES, two wrongs dont make a right. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1306 Registered: 12-2001 |
The real "liberal" problem with colleges and universities seems to be the faculty, not the students. In my field, almost all of them are preaching a form of communism, free intellectual property for the masses. They haven't a clue, and i feel like a Fox commentator whenever i do battle with them. Fair and balanced education indeed. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 943 Registered: 1-2002 |
I went through the AA nightmare not to long ago -- and will again as Grad school is coming up--, and must say that I'm at best disgusted with the fact that as a kid coming from a white, working class background I was essentially alone when it came to getting assitance, and was even barred from applying to certain internships/programs b/c I wasn't a minority applicant ( I actually had someone say "...don't bother, you're white.) I don't think it's justified, and I don't admire AA at all; there's a massive population of white working class kids getting the shaft that had nothing to do with the tresspasses against other minority groups. Especially when the AA movement and false buffering of college admissions does nothing but help hide the impovrished status of our, public, educational system; it's a copout that people can use to say that there's nothing wrong with the eductaion system b/c x number of minority students were admitted to these colleges and universities, completly ommiting the questions pertaining to the quality of the education recieved, the facilities these students were employed with by the public school system, and most importantly if they're even fit to attend and study at the university level. >>Guess the "hood" will have lots of college grads from U.M. selling the crack.<< That's a misleading statement, it should read: " Guess the suberbs will have lots of college grads from U.M. selling the crack to the apathetic ivy league debutants that have it so good, they can't think of anything better to do than •••• it up, smoke crack, and drop X." C'mon, Jeffrey, get a clue. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Advanced Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 4763 Registered: 8-2002 |
i have no problem with affirmative action, even if it DOES make things a little harder for the white guy - who give a crap, @#$% the white guy... Let's not forget 400+ years of disgusting, mindless oppression, slavery, rape, beatings, torture, dismemberment, lynching, burning - the list goes on and on... Prejudice is still prevalent today in our society and until our society learns how to really be equal, along all lines, then i have no problem with the white man finally getting the UNfair shake... So, naaaaaaaah... | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5366 Registered: 12-2000 |
LOL, next thing you know they will legalize harmless drugs like pot. Those liberals! I believe in equality, affirmative action is not equality. Unfortunately, there are many in this nation that are racist, sexist, and classist. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 167 Registered: 5-2003 |
The Liberals on the Supreme Court screwed us all again. In their ruling on AA at the University of Michigan they took the easy way out and made it harder for a talented middle class non ethnic student to get into any college. Put into simple terms: A ethnic student gets 20 points for his race. More if he is an athlete and more still if he is from a low income family. Guess the "hood" will have lots of college grads from U.M. selling the crack. Our own President spoke out against this policy but the court and the liberals prefer to listen to their bleeding hearts. |