F1 355 to 360 pump swap

No issues with my 355 after the pump was installed.

 

if bradan is doing it, DO IT
my unsuccessful trial was NOT related to the kit or pump, but the installation itself
before everything, ask them to check the hydraulic pressure with a computer
if it is holding between 52 and 57 then you might need to look elsewhere as it might not be the pump motor

how old is your clutch and TO? i changed all those as well
my car today has started shifting again in a test
here is the vid. this is of my original set-up, no 360/kit modification

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjvCePQaD6c&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/ame]

 

thanks mate
okay so i guess first things first is to hook it to an sd for reading the pressure on the pump

if it is it, then that's great since you can get a 360 pump and he kit installed

if not, then the sd should also pick up anything wrong (god forbid) with the solenoid valves

as far as the kit goes, i believe blampee when he days it is awesome and also pm windsock who is a pleasant man to ask as well

good lukc man and keep us posted

 

Labman,

Given that your clutch and related parts are new, what you describe definitely sounds like a failing pump. My pump, in hindsight, gave me thousands of miles of warning of impending failure. Most notable was the fact that at first the symptoms (slow, rough shifting and reluctance to engage reverse) were only brought on in hot conditions. This could either be during stop and go traffic or on overly hot days. As the pump continued to fail, the symptoms were seen during spirited driving in Sport mode. The last straw was when the system acted up after simply warming the car in my garage (idled for 10 minutes) so that I could impress my friend with the car. When the car wouldn't engage reverse, he was impressed alright.

Turns out when these pumps fail, the pump motor operates poorly in hot conditions (AKA: heatsoak). The failing pump did educate me on what habits "ask" more of the system than others. Rapid shifting, sport mode, and stop and go traffic are obvious, but simply stopped while idling in neutral requires the system to work hard (to maintain a "depressed" clutch). Before this, I never really gave it a second thought to sit idling the car.

Well, the 360 pump using the Hill adapter kit made a world of difference! The benefit is partly from having a new pump motor, of course, but it's also from having a bigger, more powerful motor as well. I went one step further by installing the finned metal radiator (sold by an FChatter) as well to help prevent the system from overheating. Now, the car is ready to drive within a couple seconds from key-on (under 3 seconds, really). Shifts are smooth and fast, reverse never reluctant. No issues whatsoever in 2,000 miles since the swap.

So, yes, I definitely recommend the upgrade to the 360 pump!

Now the bad news: The Hill adapter is just that. It's an adapter plate and seals, that's it. It is not a kit. Apparently Hill was sourced in London by a nearby indie mechanic to make them an adapter plate for just such a swap, and they now are making copies of that original plate for our consumption. Your mechanic will need to fabricate a mounting bracket, hydraulic hoses and routing (the pump will be relocated to a remote/adjacent location rather than continuous with the "octopus" of the system). So, this definitely is NOT a diy thing, unless you are pro or near-pro. Because of the complexity of the install, plan for 10-15 hours of shop rate for the install. Braden, based on my observations in these forums, should be more than capable of the install and be more than fair in costs involved. But Mowater has shown that this is not a great plan if your shop is not up to this level of complexity. Not sure what I would recommend to someone not in close proximity to a good shop...

I wholeheartedly think that this upgrade will become part of what makes a 355F1 a "sorted" car.

Good luck Labman,

John

 

You mean it is HARMFUL to sit at a stoplight in neutral with an F1???? I have never heard that and always thought neutral was the best position at a light/etc. Please elaborate...

Also...yes...the Hill piece is just that.

Daniel...or Mark...whatever happened with that proposed install manual...?

 

Not harmful, per se Blampee. Just that anytime the car is stopped but engine is running, the system is working (hydraulics-wise). Doesn't matter whether in gear or in neutral, it's as if you have your foot down on a clutch pedal. That's just the way the system operates. So, while in this situation, there is no CLUTCH wear, there is a hydraulic demand placed on the pump. This also persents additional stress on the release bearing, which is why the F1 cars have a more robust bearing. This will fatigue a pump on its last legs. Sitting at a light, you probably won't test your system much. But idling for an extended amount of time (such as in an ecu reset procedure) will definitely test the system. Having been through a pump replacement, I can tell you that the only time the system "rests" is when moving in gear for a period of time. Only then is very little demand placed on the pump(assuming no leaks or other problems). I hope that clears things up a bit.

 

Best way to think about an F1 system is to remember that this is really just a manual box. The hydraulics do for us what we would do if it were a stick-and-pedal car. Anytime we sit stationary with the motor running the computer prepares for us to engage a gear at any time, so it holds the clutch as if we were depressing the pedal. That requires hydraulic pressure. Also, shifting requires hydraulic pressure. Shifting faster (sport mode) requires even more pressure. This is why these actions test the pump.

A healthy pump is more than up to the task. An ailing pump will struggle in these moments.

 

^ Great information there. Thank you.

Labman, the way I would do it since you are in the US is to call up BRADAN and ask them if they have done this or not before. If not, but they are confident they can get it right, then I would trust them for sure.
If however they have not done any adaptation of the 360 before, I would call Mike (member WINDSOCK) and ask about costs for shipping the unit to him back and forth, all assembled and ready to be installed on the car. From there, BRADAN can hook all wires and connections, bleed the system, configure everything. And you will have a carefree 360 pump installed.

Personally, I am wishing that I do not need to send my unit any time soon -if ever- to the US for assembly of the 360 pump and adapter, and get it back for reinstallation. This seems excessive even to someone like me who is madly in love WITH the F355 - it is emotional and not mechanical. However, if I knew that the shops in Kuwait were incompetent then in hindsight that is what I would have done.

Still, since BRADAN is local to you, checking readings for the hydraulic pressure can be done in a jiffy to support or deny if the pump was causing this.

Good luck, keep us posted, and TRUST ME: DO NOT PROCEED WITH ANYTHING BEFORE RUNNING IT WITH THE BROTHERHOOD.
This forum has such wealth of information, it is ridiculous. Without it, I would have never got the car to shift again. I concede to that fact.

 

Hmm not sure which light you refer to as F1 light, do you mean the one that looks like a popped hood, on the left of the cluster?

If so, I had this light come on when I received my car back from the AD. And as a result, whenever it was on, I could not shift. I would have to wait until "pressure built up" and the light goes off, that I can change gear.
Point being: yes, after my car went to the AD, I got it back in worst condition.
NOTE: This was on borrowed solenoid valves from a used unit.

I think you will know for sure if it is the pump or not once BRADAN hook it up to check the pressure on the SD.

Also, I remember that even when the SD gave a 55 PSI reading at the AD, the mechanic "opened a valve" that is on the top right of the accumulator, and the F1 oil did not "shoot out". He said this is because there is no holding pressure.

I am really sorry I am just being a conversationalist here and not giving solid facts, but I am sincerely wishing my experiences can be of use to the brotherhood because I have learned so much and would love to give something back.

GOOD LUCK!

 

If you are wondering why that light is not coming on, then good. I hope it never does for your bro!
You will not be able to shift unless the pressure builds up in the system. This is according to what the teamleader mech at the AD told me. I would trust it until any of the experienced members here say otherwise. I would definitely believe what I am told here than in a shop/AD locally.

The reason I was given for why that light came on, was the solenoid valves. I.e. the power unit itself and not the motor pump itself.

After returning all my solenoids to my original unit, original pump, the light did NOT come on.
It never came on until I took it to the dealer, and they swapped a few valves from a used unit I got them.

Looking forward to your work being done!
I should receive my car again not after Sunday, I hope, and will keep you posted. I am waiting on the clutch to be configured (PIS, IO).

 

My F1 light never came on during any of the time during my slow-mo pump failure. (I call it "slow-mo" because I never did get stranded by it, but it felt like anytime that was going to happen.) But it still sounds to me like your F1 pump is failing if it's taking 15 seconds for the light to go out when you first turn on the key, indicating "ready" status. Labman, you will be very pleasantly surprised when you have a strong new pump keeping the system pressured up. You'll notice smoother take offs, smoother/quicker shifts, and instant readiness when first powered up.

Bradan is more than up to the job, based on what he's shown us on this board. As I said, expect it to take 10+ hours of shop time.

Bottom line on this upgrade is the question "would I do it again?" Answer not only is "absolutely", but "why didn't I do this earlier?" Money well-spent.