Myth or Fact: Pre-Cat or Main Cat Failures

Ok, I have read numerous threads about failures with 360s in the Pre-cats or main cats that have or could have resulted in engine failure or just some major damage.

My problem is that I suspect that most of it might be hear say.(I could be wrong). So I am putting a question out to the masses.

Has your 360 had a Pre-cat or Main cat failure while in your possession or a previous owner that you have proof of. (No need to post the proof). Just going to take your word for it, so Boy Scout's or Girl Scout's (for your lady owners out there) honor.

**So post up your year and how long ago it occurred.**

Just trying to see if there are truths to these rumors or not.

Thanks.

Deiger

Ok, I will start. No for my 2003 Spider!

 

No for my 2003 Spider as well. (knock on wood)

 

Ok, 63 looks and only 2 responses and they are both no's.

I think we have a "Mythbuster"!

Deiger

 

You assumption is that those that looked actually own a Ferrari. Just because someone isn't posting doesn't mean it didn't happen. With the way this board is I don't blame anyone for not posting that they had engine damage. This group would devalue their car by a huge amount.

It is kind of like posting "How many are having an affair". Then saying 50+ looks and no one saying yes, so no one has affairs.

 

I would rather listen to the professional mechanics regarding the issue. Brian brings the voice of experience to this debate.

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/134876338-post7.html

On a 430, but still relevant.
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430/377467-f430-header-failure-can-happen-you.html

 

I can see your point and I do agree. However, two valid points can be made from my posting of this thread: 1) when I purchased my car a year ago, a lot of feedback was directed at swapping out my stock Ferrari headers w/ pre-cats and stock Ferrari cats for fear that they ARE going to fail and damage my engine.

and 2) For future buyers might have fear when buying a "new to them" 360 with Stock exhaust equipment, that they may end of down the road with a VERY EXPENSIVE repair of a new engine.

As a matter of fact a lot of aftermarket companies and members infer that our stock Ferrari headers are going to fail, so before they do, buy $4-6k worth of new headers and max-flow cats to avoid this problem. When the evidence of this actually happening is non-existent or at least appears that way.

I would like to see actually evidence of such.

To provide evidence from my research, I have spoken with a number of qualified Ferrari mechanics that have stated that prior to a Pre-cat or main cat failure a CEL will appear indicating a potential problem. At that point the owner should react and have the CEL addressed.

Keep the conversation going!!!

Deiger

 

Great post! Even though it was primarily for the 430, I think a lot can be related to the 360, especially the part from fine to hammering noise.

I think a lot of owners share a similar opinion to me, that if I need to spend $3-6k in new exhaust components, I need to have solid proof or at least proven justification to move forward.

Deiger

 

I think once if you have looked at the actual construction of the pre-cat and how it's mounted in the header you would want to take it out. When I took mine out I couldn't believe what a sloppy job Ferrari did.

It's obviously another typical last minute sloppy Ferrari construction, the cat is not really secured in there by any means, just wedged in an enlarged tube that's welded. So of course it's going to rattle and shake loose. The shaking surely will break parts of the cat loose.

 

I'm sure pre-cats fail...

What I would be more interested in, is WHY they fail, and what driving habits and or modifications cause them to fail.

For example some simple questions:

Does an aftermarket catback affect this? Surely you would think no, but then again, adding a catback changes multiple things, such as exhaust back pressure, engine bay heat etc.

Do aftermarket cat-bypass pipes affect this?

Driving habits? Regular versus spirited

Long periods of sitting versus daily use?

Mileage?

Heat cycles?

Challenge rear grill? (Less heat in engine area)

Has the car been run for a long period of time with a CEL? Specifically misfire or lean/rich faults, or others that actually affect the engine's running.

 

I have the solution to this pre-cat problem...buy a 1999 360

 

Or buy a Euro - No pre cats in the headers

R

 

1999 360 no problem / no kidding sold the car
2004 360 spyder - no problem, current car....

 

Hello,

When I got my 360 3 years ago I too was concerned with the dreaded pre-cats.

Since everyone is willing to sell you an alternative I did my own research.

Algar Patrick 610-527-1100 7 years

Central NJ Mike 732-248-9100 6 1/2 years

Miller Motor Cars Ken 203-629-3890 6 years

Wide World of Cars Justin 845-425-2600 10 years

Tampa Bay Andrew 727-784-7377 3 years

Central Florida Mark 407-667-4300 10 years

Denver Joe 303-730-7340 8 years


So what does this mean????

I simply started calling Ferrari dealerships and asked the service manager how long they worked there and how many 360's they saw with an issue with the pre-cats.

Not one saw an issue with the pre-cat. Allow me to repeat...not one.

Do I still worry? Of course...Just not as much.

I had mine scoped and they are fine.

Hope this info is useful.

 

you are the true enthusiast

thumbs up

 

+1
Thanks for the info!!!

 

hate to rain on everyone's parade but what started as a ticking sound on one side of the engine on my 2002 Modena turned out to be a cracked header and a total breakdown of the precat on the other side. I was there as the mechanic took the old headers off and just poured out the catalytic stuff out of the pipe.

I was sure glad the the ticking noise caused me to replace the headers otherwise I could of had an engine failure for sure.

 

I knew a guy who had the precat material sucked into his motor. It did over $15k of damage. I replaced mine after that.

 

I would also like to rain on everyone's parade. I have a 2005 360 Spider with 17,000 miles. I replaced the headers and cats last month. When I went by to check on the status of the repairs, my mechanic of 15 years turned one of the cats upside down and poured out ceramic dust. When I asked him what it would have done to the the engine, he simply said, "not good." I will state that the pre-cat headers appeared to be intact and free of loose dust, however, after looking at how they were engineered in the header, it did not inspire confidence in the least.

I can understand the skepticism given the back and forth in the multiple Ferrari forum communities on this subject. I too debated the issue for sometime, not wanting to spend money without either receiving value or mitigating risk. However, if you do a risk verses return calculation and game theory the possible outcomes and cost factors, it is hard to argue against not replacing the both headers and cats. Particularly when the result is an additional 20 horsepower, more mid-band torque, significantly less weight for both the headers/cats and a better sound. I have the Ferrari racing exhaust installed on the car and the sound is simply tremendous. It makes my Porsche 1999 911 with factory racing exhaust sound like a sewing machine.

Once again, remember, despite the low mileage, the Ferrari is a 9 year old car and things can wrong simply with age. I would add the car was in stunning condition when I purchased it in December of 2013. I test drove a 2010 Audi R8 V10 and then saw the 360 on the showroom floor. The salesman noted that the R8 was a state-of-the-art super-car and the 360 was a belt-driven car that was five years older. While that was a true statement and during the test-drive the Audi didn't accelerate, it transported from one spot to the other, however, sitting side-by-side on the showroom floor, it was pretty clear which car I was taking home.

I would also add that I did purchase the headers and cats directly from IPE in Taiwan and had a positive experience. You can contact them at [email protected]. You can debate the issue, but for me the debate ended when a significant amount of dust came out of the cat.

 

I would also like to rain on everyone's parade. I have a 2005 360 Spider with 17,000 miles. I replaced the headers and cats last month. When I went by to check on the status of the repairs, my mechanic of 15 years turned one of the cats upside down and poured out ceramic dust. When I asked him what it would have done to the the engine, he simply said, "not good." I will state that the pre-cat headers appeared to be intact and free of loose dust, however, after looking at how they were engineered in the header, it did not inspire confidence in the least.

I can understand the skepticism given the back and forth in the multiple Ferrari forum communities on this subject. I too debated the issue for sometime, not wanting to spend money without either receiving value or mitigating risk. However, if you do a risk verses return calculation and game theory the possible outcomes and cost factors, it is hard to argue against not replacing the both headers and cats. Particularly when the result is an additional 20 horsepower, more mid-band torque, significantly less weight for both the headers/cats and a better sound. I have the Ferrari racing exhaust installed on the car and the sound is simply tremendous. It makes my Porsche 1999 911 with factory racing exhaust sound like a sewing machine.

Once again, remember, despite the low mileage, the Ferrari is a 9 year old car and things can wrong simply with age. I would add the car was in stunning condition when I purchased it in December of 2013. I test drove a 2010 Audi R8 V10 and then saw the 360 on the showroom floor. The salesman noted that the R8 was a state-of-the-art super-car and the 360 was a belt-driven car that was five years older. While that was a true statement and during the test-drive the Audi didn't accelerate, it transported from one spot to the other, however, sitting side-by-side on the showroom floor, it was pretty clear which car I was taking home.

I would also add that I did purchase the headers and cats directly from IPE in Taiwan and had a positive experience. You can contact them at [email protected]. You can debate the issue, but for me the debate ended when a significant amount of dust came out of the cat.

 

Well, I have been doing some outside research on this subject. I would like to revisit a point that Tim1137 brought up, driving habits and care of car.

Catalytic converters should last the life of the car (around 100,000 miles). From my research, issues related to the car can contribute to pre-mature cat failure (whether it is with the pre-cats or main cat). Bad exhaust valves, bad spark plugs, unburned gas, etc. Experts state that if a CEL appears or a sound is emitted from the cats, the main culprit could be farther back into the engine and replacing the cat will merely offer a temp fix to the bigger problem.

Perhaps car usage also, if the car is tracked or exposed to more extreme driving conditions than let's say typical passenger car, could this lead to pre-mature cat failure......

The other item that has led to pre-mature cat failure is impact to the unit (mainly related to an accident or severe jolt or bump).

While it would be tough to examine each and every failed pre-cat or main cat; or non-failed pre-cat or main cat. It stills boils down to a risk assessment.

Deiger

(BTW: my sources for this research I feel were very solid and reliable)

 

On a side note:

I have also been doing research on alternatives. Questions to be answered:

1) Access to Capristo or Tubi headers? What dealers are out there (can't find any with 360 options other than ebay)
2) CEL complications with headers that don't have pre-cats (I live in an inspection state w/ emissions)?
3) Why were the pre-cats added after 1999? Were there tuning issues, emissions problems?

Deiger

 

that is a good question as to why they were added after 99, the 99's pass smog VERY clean (if their monitors are on, but that is another story). So obviously the pre-cats don't seem to be of any major help in running clean.

 

Exactly what I did, bought a 3-pedal 1999 model 12 years ago.

It still has the original clutch and has been virtually trouble-free.

No worries.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

caught it before any damage to engine, the loose precat sounded like popcorn when cold, then normal when hot,

got lucky on this, now have new headers with no pre cats, runs great.

The pre cat appears to be a metallic honeycomb as opposed to ceramic. Its very durable but it seems to be a press fit into the collector of the stock header and can become loose like mine did, seems like chance of reversion into engine head is low on a 360, but still glad I caught it.

About a $4-5k event to replace with after market, about $11k with stock headers.

Only issue is that I had to go back to stock muffler from the sport muffler, the precat does a significant amount of silencing contrary to those that love the "music" of loud exhaust. It was crazy loud with the CS muffler, hoping the return to stock will be a ok, still seems to be loud when you get on it.

 

Pre-cats are for cold start emissions. They are small and near the exhaust outlet so they heat quickly and start working almost immediately. Once the engine is warm the main cat is warm and does the job.