Interesting finding on F1 system.

well, I came across this popular compact car in China called "QQ" manufactured by Chery Automobiles. The car cost around US $8,000 new and came with an "automatic manual gearbox".

What I found interesting is that the car came with the same F1 system with our 360/430 bar the paddles. It runs on exclusive automatic mode.

Well, the other day I happened to see a used f1 power unit of this car(picture 2). Much to my amazement, the EV valves, pressure accumulator and the pump looked identical to my 360's.

So i walk up into a Chery dealer and asked the parts guy if I can buy some valves and accumulator or the pump. They didn't have any in stock but after 3 days of wait, finally I acquired all these following for about US$350 new (see 3nd picture, lower 3 parts are new, upper 3 parts are used from my 360). In China they don't sell parts without installing them on your car, but I pulled some strings and made it happen.

Picture 4-6 are comparison of each part.
The used pump was bought from Juri@fchat and was destroyed by me in a test. The new pump looks exactly the same as the juri one, except the "paws" that secure the cover to the body. I remember he said its a 430 pump?
The EVF valve is identical to the used one. Except there's a metal protection on the column, as I was told by the chery dealer, it can be removed.
The accumulator is identical to the old one, the hex, the screw, all the same.

I then drove my 360 to a nearest Chery dealer, this time I drove directly to the service department garage, and with these parts my hand , I walked out of the car greeted by a smiling technicion , who said: "hey, nice car, but you seriously can't just drive up here without notifying the front desk"

Ignoring his blaming, I asked directly " hey buddy, do you know if the valves are made in china or?" He said: "you think china can make this thing for a few hundred yuan?" ( exchange rate = 6.5:1) I said: i dont know. He said: "no, China can't do it for technical reasons." I asked: "what about the pump and accumulator? " He said: " those might be made in China. But your car's f1 system was made of the same thing as the QQ, QQ copied ferrari." ah!! the guys seems to know Ferrari.

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so , conclusion: I have yet to install these things to my car but I think it will work and work perfectly.
I'll keep u updated.
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some more pics, one of them is the QQ EVF valve installed on 360 power unit
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Very good find.

I've often looked at the SV part numbers on other selespeed systems and they are different parts....

What about the other valves?
There are different types.

The motor is the same design as the one I bought last year.

I think with a selection of these parts the power unit will be easy to rebuild.



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other valves are the same as well (if we agree that this EVF valve is the same)

like I said, i didn't install it to test the car, once I did and succeed , the only question left, is the longetivity, which i believe isn't a problem. they are all made by Marelli.

 

Nicely done!

 

So did it work?

 

Great find.

 

i don't know
i'll install it on my 360 challenge and see

 

It doesn't surprise me at all, it is known Magneti Marelli supplies automated manual transmissions to affordable cars in India
http://m.economictimes.com/industry/auto/news/passenger-vehicle/cars/10-important-points-about-automated-manual-transmission/articleshow/45086580.cms

http://www.magnetimarelli.com/excellence/technological-excellences/amt

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This is really good work. I like the way you are attacking the problem. The operating environments are so different yet the physical configuration is very similar.

I wonder if there is a different treatment to the electrical connections inside the parts?

 

I highly doubt there's a difference,

2 reasons

1. if I were Magzinely Marrily, why do I want to make different tooling for the same purpose valves?

2. if I were Chery, why don't I just take magzinely Marrily products off the shelf, which has been proven to work?

I could be really wrong , as i am no expert and have no clue.

 

I'm not an engineer but I can imagine that different gearboxes might require slightly different valves. Weight and number of gearbox components will no doubt have to be factored into the valve's performance. Wouldn't it?

Thought they look similar they don't appear identical.

Alternately it might "work" but not perform exactly as intended by Ferrari. Could this have other consequences?

It'll be great if that's not the case. One way to find out I guess...

 

your argument is quite valid. But there's a way to test it.

See all the valve does is to allow oil to pass through, for an predetermined arrange of flow rate. This flow rate can be seen on the SD2 as leakage and pressure dropping rate ( DIY, count seconds and read the pressure difference after 1 min maybe)

So after the install, if the above-mentioned flow rates were within range, we are good.

The reason why I want to test it on my 360 challenge is that on the race car on the track, we have an "extreme" environment to test for the limits.

If you test it on a road modena and drive like normal, it will hard to say. It might work perfectly until you really push it.

 

the alternative solution is that

if there's a Magneti Marelli engineer on the forum, he can look up a table and see if the labels on valves indicates the same manufacturing parameters. If not, what's the difference?

 

Could be. I think the road car and race car have different requirements though don't they? Presumably Ferrari worked to make the F1 perform "like" an automatic on the road but wouldn't have given this any consideration on the Challenge car.

That said...try it out! Can't wait to hear about it.

 

As per parts diagram, the 360 challenge and 360 modena have identical ( parts to parts) f1 systems and engine. except the Challenge f1 TCU, which is more, maybe, demanding than the Modena

so.....

 

The only difference that I can possibly see is the 2010 part has a hole in the bottom of the unit while the 0400 unit does not. This might.. might be important for function, or it might not! Looks like the solenoid portion of the valve is the same, the only rub I can see is whether the flow in the valve portion is different.

If it is... then how can you make it the same? Poke a hole in the plastic bottom of the 2010 unit?

 

somebody has a 430 valve picture in detail?

I am suspecting the no-hole valve is for f430 f1 power unit ( since the pump is from f430)

 

you reminded me something

As gross as it gets, when I got the new valve, I blew it throw the no-hole area of the new valve and the holed area of the used valve.. to compare

I noticed that the new valves does have more pressure resistance than the used valve.

damn I got some oil in my mouth so I brushed my teeth as a result.

 

What about the screen band over the top row of holes on the plunger? Would that act as a snubber to the oil under pressure and slow down the transfer of fluid? Things need to happen fast in a high revving car. Can this easily be removed?

 

chery dealer confirmed that it can be removed easily

actually he told me he's not sure if it Should be installed with the screen.

 

Both those valves have the same part number, 195717. The rest is just batch numbers, manufacturing date, destination etc. Should be identical in operation except no yellow box premium. Big problem here is few Chinese cars so far, but knowing the Chinese, there is probably an online source for parts if someone can find it.

 

Bookmarked.

Can we update the thread with the part numbers of each of the 6 valves and the pressure sensors?
Some valves are positional and some selection (proportional) which allow for different selection speed and prevent excess force.

I'd be prepared to buy some of these to have on the shelf.
The complete pumps are about $350 in the UK which is already a decent price.

If we can source replacement valves then a potential big bill is removed.

What do the valves seat against? Are they inserts?

We just need a reliable source for actuator rebuilds now.....

The QQ is a Miles ZX50S in the US and you need an EZ Drive semi-auto one..

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ok, about the actuator, call the technician today.

He said they rebuild QQ actuators all the time. Granted, its a totally different actuator.

I sent him a picture of our actuator and ask him if he can do an "outside" job.

And I asked him how much. After a few questions of the 360 actuator, guess what he says: "if I can find the seals, 2000 yuan ($300 USD)"

I asked him if he has anyway to test the actuator on a bench he said no, the only way to test it is on your own car. Drive it and see if there's any leak.

I've always thought the rebuild companies are overcharging us for maybe a 2 hour job.
Now I am confirmed. Don't throw flames at me if I am grossly wrong. But I seriously don't think it is a difficult job demanding $2000.

 

let me sum up the F1 system, if I may. I am no expert but I think i know the hydraulic system more than most people do on the board.

6 major components:

1. the unit that all valves are attached to. This unit isn't a consumable unit. It will last very very very long. So seldom will this be replaced.

2. All valves and the pressure sensors attached to 1., seems to be the same as the QQ ones, which costs nothing compared to what ferrari charges ( ferrari don't sell the valves individually for the 360. For 430 they do, a few hundred US dollars each.)

3. accumulator, seems to be the same as the QQ one.

4. oil hoses. It can be replaced by any competent hydraulic application maker or company, in Hong Kong or mainland China I can do something like $300 for all of them.

5. the actuator. As the QQ tech said, it is simple as hell, just the seals! Maybe accessing the seals is a bit difficult but making tools for access will never be as expensive as a few thousand dollars for a new actuator.

6. 2x sensors on the actuator. I have citreon units on the actuator. So please somebody source those from citreon.

I think I remarked before that this hydraulic system is very very old tech, it isn't rocket science and has been used in similar industrial applications for a long long time, maybe before I was born. It is the concept that you can use a system to robotized the shift that was marvelous. Implementation isn't.