16M super fast shift question

I'm not sure but my 04 360 Spider with Challenge Stradale TCU (as all F1s should) does have a "two limit" clutch curve. You feel it below 4K rpm in the lower gears in 1st and 2nd. I call it this because when you look at the clutch curves for the F1 transmission, you see a hyperbolic curve with a shallow "limit" like line along the x axis at the outset, and then along the y axis at the full engagement end.

In practice, it feels like the computer nannies are still in play even with everything turned off. It may be a little glazing on the flywheel but it only seems to happen in the lower gears Also it could be the VVT system causing computer lag at rpms below 4K. Almost like it's too busy trying to do both. But you can feel it half engage, "pause" then fully engage going from 1st to second, 2nd to 3rd. And I usually shift from 4k to 5k rpm. It gets too loud and I run out of room around town to go much higher. Clutch has killer PIS adjustment at something like 3.75mm. Did 3 launch tests with MaseratiCraig last summer to tune it, better than dealer.

 

I just got a Scud and I'm trying to figure out the shifting as well. When I test drove the car, I was told that the gearbox shifts "smoother" in higher RPMs. From what I've noticed (and this is in Sport mode primarily), shifting from 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd, shifting in the lower RPMs (lower than 4000) results in a smoother shift. In those gears, when I shift around 6000 RPMs, you get that "kick" that everyone talks so much about. However, going from 3rd to 4th and onwards, shifting at higher RPM (>6K) is smooth and fast.

I'd also like to hear from others and get some understanding on how to shift properly. There was a pretty good post about the F1 clutch and what not to do to wear out the clutch (i.e. going in reverse, going slowly on a hill/incline, creeping forward in traffic, etc.), but I don't think that thread really got into the way the gearboxes on the Scud/16M shifted.

 

I found this in the Scuderia owner's manual (I presume it would be the same in the 16M manual):

The F1-SuperFast 2 gearshifting is active only under the following conditions:
- driving mode control switch set to SPORT, RACE, CT OFF or CST OFF;
- engine at > 5000 RPM and accelerator pedal at > 40%;
- no traction control;
- engine water temperature > 70 °C (158 °F)
and engine oil temperature > 15 °C (59 °F). A message on the multifunction display
will inform the driver that F1-SuperFast 2 gearshifting is available.

The F1-SuperFast 2 gearshifting is not available under the following conditions: - driving mode control switch set to Low-
Grip.

 

There were a few TCU and software updates for SF2 so it is entirely possible there are noticeable differences between otherwise perfectly functioning cars.

 

The gear changes should be fast in all the gears when using SF2 - the important thing to remember is that it is you that controls the gear change functionality once you have selected that the option is available with the manettino. But you need to meet all the criteria for SF2 to occur - revs, throttle position and no traction control cutting in. It could be that in Race mode in lower gears you are getting some traction control cutting in automatically and hence SF2 is being disabled. I always drive in 'CT off' but you need to be concentrating.
You can also invoke SF2 for a down change and additionally this works particularly well for a double non sequential down change for an overtake situation - but hang on.

 

As per my other post you need to be sure that Traction Control is not automatically kicking in and limiting the SF2 functionality in the lower gears.
The Scud/16M is an amazing car and you need to understand when and how the SF2 is triggered - in Sport mode and on maximum attack the traction control will kick in very easily in the lower gears which will limit the SF2 operation.
I drive my 16M always in 'CT off' with soft suspension (British roads) and fully manual. In normal driving I always feather the throttle for perfectly smooth changes and then at any instant I can invoke SF2 mode with the correct combination of throttle and revs on both up and down changes - an amazing and rewarding car to drive.

I believe the information you quote about reverse gear is not valid for 430's except to say that any driving you do that is on or around the biting point of the clutch will wear the clutch just as it will in a manual car if you ride the biting point all the time.

 

Well the traction control interference only needs to be very slight for the criteria not to be met for SF2 engagement to occur - any traction control activation will prevent SF2. I would suggest if you are flooring it in first and not feeling the rear tyres struggling for grip then traction control has definitely kicked in. How new/good are your tyres? Recently changed my Pirelli P Zero Corsa's for Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 and the grip difference is astounding.

Experiment with care.

 

how many miles does your car have?

Could be the synchromesh ring on the 2nd gear being worn so it takes longer to synchronise the second gear.
did you already change the gearbox oil?

 

to me it does sound like a gear promblem.
if it takes longer to go into second gear because of a worn synchro ring.
the clutch simply holds on longer to engage.

 

This sounds exactly like what I am experiencing with my 360 Spider, CS TCU. The gear change sounds fine, like it bangs into gear like it should, but it's the clutch mesh that is delayed. Like traction control is kicking in, even though though I have it off AND ASR off! I wonder now if the polarity is switched or the logic circuits are off because of the missing start button. To tell you the truth, the original tcu was the same. It's much better with the fine PIS adjustment but you notice the difference in a good launch, lots of room, making a pass like a drag car. Maybe the VVT and nanny limit in the lower gears is more like 6K rp,? and is it really off when it says it's off?

Maybe the tcu IS waiting for the gears to spin up?, but it must be silent, and I don't think it effects downshifts into the lower gears. They are all awesome. Isn't this where synchro wear usually shows up?

 

Special thanks to Aldous Voice for his wonderful website. Here is the graph with what I call a "2 limit" near hyberbolic curve.

https://aldousvoice.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/clutch3.jpg

 

Well certainly if you are using the Manettino in a position that enables traction control to activate then in lower gears under extreme acceleration it is very likely the SF2 is being prevented from operating.

 

Hay itialiafan,

I only use the Scud in CST OFF and the shifting is perfect in both low and high gears. The car is always warmed up before use, oil temp over 140F, and a few miles to warm up the drive line. As others mentioned above the shift speed is controlled by how much throttle is input and rpm. Just to see that all is functioning properly, go for a 15 minute drive, make sure the car is warmed up, set CST OFF, and have some fun!!!

My bet is your car is fine and the electronics/protections are what your felling, F1 SF2 are robust pieces.

 

You may also want to check under the car around the clutch to insure the rear main seal is not leaking, seems to happen on these lower mileage cars - mine had 3300 when I bought it and now is over 6K - rear main seal was replaced 2 weeks ago, it did not contaminate the clutch unit. But if it does you would feel a slower clutch engagement as there would be some slipping.

 

I don't think anyone would fault you for that - except possibly your significant other...
Enjoy your very special car!!