Cold start stumble question | FerrariChat

Cold start stumble question

Discussion in '360/430' started by up4speed, Nov 3, 2013.

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  1. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    I already looked up prior posts on this issue. I know that there was a lot of speculation regarding possible low battery, injector leak down, dirty MAF sensor etc. However, I haven't come across any definitive fix for it.
    I have had my car for over a year now. During the first year, I had it stumble only two or three times. Once was definitely caused by me not waiting for the "OK" light, the other two seemed to be random. Now all of a sudden, for the past month, it has been stumbling on a cold start EVERY time!! I'm not happy about this.
    My question is:
    Why would it start doing this all of a sudden for no apparent reason? I use the car regularly, and take it for long spirited drives every time I use it.
    I already tried resetting the battery and doing the proper drive cycle. I then tested the battery with a load tester and it showed 12.65 volts after a normal drive and 720 CCA. I also had put in a bottle of Techron a few months ago, along with new spark plugs (the Techron and plugs were done prior to having the cold start stumble. Ran fine for months after that as well).
    I can't figure out why this is happening and it's driving me nuts. For now I'm just shutting down and re-starting for the first start of the day. It always starts perfectly the second time. I would also like to add, another Ferrari buddy of mine (in Texas) said that he is having the same EXACT issue! He said it was fine for the first year of ownership, now all of a sudden it stumbles on EVERY cold start, just like mine!
    What am I missing? Any ideas?
     
  2. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    The Rube Goldberg in me says that your injectors are probably leaking down and it's taking extra time for the fuel pumps to build up the fuel pressure. Take a fuel pressure reading on both rails and see if it is within spec per the WSM. Do you smell gas in the engine oil?
     
  3. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    Nope, the oil does not have any fuel smell to it.
    I have a fuel pressure gauge that I can hook up for a reading. I'll try to find info in the WSM, but do you know off hand, am I supposed to check it while running? Not running? Sitting over night? I've been thinking about the fuel pressure as well, but didn't know what or when to check it. Time to read the WSM ;)
     
  4. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    Check for standing pressure. Hook up gauge, start the engine and let it idle for about a minute and then shutdown. I believed it should be about 40 PSI after 1 hour of engine shutdown. You'll need to dig in the WSM to get the value. Do this on each bank. It would be convenient if you have two gauges. I would leave the gauge hooked up over night and re-read it in the morning. The injectors should hold the pressure. If not, then you found the problem. Hopefully not one of many problems.
     
  5. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    Thanks!
    I just looked in the WSM. Basically they say to start the car and check that the pressure is 3.45 bar when running. Then shut off for an hour and make sure that it stays at 2.7 bar.
    If it doesn't hold, they say to check for leaks (very generic) and/or replace fuel pump, and/or replace boost control (I assume that's the pressure regulator built into the pump so I would need a new pump either way probably).
    When it mentions "check for leaks" would that also mean checking for a leaky injector? If so, how do I narrow it down? Or do I just remove all the injectors at that point and send them out for cleaning/testing at a professional shop?
    It seems pretty easy to remove them on this car.
    I wonder if it's just a weak fuel pump? I guess I'll know soon enough after I test it. I'll try to do this test tomorrow and report back with my results.
    By the way, the car works perfectly in every other way. The drivability is perfect, it's just the cold start issue that alerted me that there is a problem.
     
  6. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Chris, I agree with above.. check the fuel pressure first. Classic sign of excessive leakdown.

    On mine I noticed that the cold start in the morning was not as clean as it used to be. She would reluctantly grumble to a stable idle. Being a slacker I went along with it until I noticed the idle dropping sporadically for a sec or two a few weeks later, as if a cylinder was falling off. Replaced the coil packs and now she just sparks to life in the morning.

    If it's not gas then perhaps consider the spark angle and then maybe cold air mixture. Sticking recirculation valve?
     
  7. jjsaustin

    jjsaustin Formula Junior

    May 11, 2008
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    Over the years I have had this happen to me twice before. Both times the issue was solved with a couple bottles or Techron fuel system cleaner and 1 tank of gas. After a year or so it would come back. It just started again and I will see if it fixes the problem for a third time. I should know in a week or so.
     
  8. fiat

    fiat Karting

    Aug 5, 2012
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    keep the charger, that comes with the car as an option, hooked up at all times while garaged. I had the same problem and by doing the above procedure it went away. I believe as the battery gets older it will loose some of the power while car is parked, and during the cranking ( which requires a lot of amp) causes the problem to arise.If you don't have a optional trickle charger a deltran battery tender will do the job.
     
  9. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    Thanks Curt, I'll keep updating. Hopefully I can get to the bottom of this!

    Please let us know. As I mentioned I put in Techron already (I did it a few tankfuls prior to this issue happening)

    Sorry, I forgot to add that the battery was fully charged at the time. I used to put it on the charger if I wasn't going to use the car more than once a week. Since this problem started occurring, I left it on the charger every night. Unfortunately that didn't help..... I was sure hoping that it was a battery issue. Do you think it's possible that the car is so sensitive, that even with more than 12.65V and 720CCA, that the power may still dip low enough to cause an issue?
     
  10. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

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    That should pretty much rule out any battery issues wouldn't you think?
    Alan
     
  11. mikeyr

    mikeyr Formula 3

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    mine stopped stumbling when I got in the habit of putting the battery charger/maintainer on every night.

    But I admit the stumbling never bothered me, the car started, stumbled but did not die and smoothed out pretty quickly so it did not bother me. I was surprised that the hooking up the battery fixed it.
     
  12. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    I really don't know what they mean, but they seem to coincide with what the shop manual states.
    Shop manual states:
    - connect gauge
    - start & idle engine
    - gauge should read 3.45 bar (~50 psi)
    - turn off engine
    - check that pressure DROPS and remains steady at 2.7 +/-.3 bar (39 +/- 4.35 psi) for AT LEAST AN HOUR.

    The part that I put all caps on is the parts that confuse me a little. According to the shop manual, it seems like the pressure is supposed to drop (or else there is a problem), and the pressure remains steady for at least an hour (that tells me that they don't expect it to hold pressure for 24 hrs)
    I don't know if that was a language translation issue, or a comprehension issue on my part but I don't really understand what is "normal" based on the shop manual info.

    Anyway, here are my personal results of my test:

    -I started with hooking up the gauge after the car was sitting for 24 hrs without being started. Both left and right banks showed 0 psi.

    -I left the gauge on the left bank and turned the KOEO (key on engine off), then checked the pressure. It was at 48 psi (pump prime)

    -I started the engine, waited 10 seconds for the gauge to stabilize at 53 psi

    - Shut engine after 1 -2 minutes of running then took reading after 10 seconds, 48 psi

    - took reading 1/2 hr later, 45 psi
    - 1.5 hrs later, 37 psi

    Then I repeated the test with the right bank:

    - KOEO, 48 psi

    - Start engine, 54 psi

    - shut engine after 1-2 minutes of run time, 51 psi

    - 1/2 hour later, 51 psi (this was strange that it didn't drop???)

    - 1.5 hrs later, 44 psi


    Looking at all my data, it seems to fit into what the shop manual expects the readings to be:
    They were both over 50 psi with the car running.
    They were both 39 +/- 4.35 psi after sitting for at least an hour. (actually the right bank was slightly higher pressure than the spec in the service manual)

    Based on all this info, can I assume that the fuel pressure is not a cause of my issue? Or a cause?
    I'm thinking that it's fine at this point.
     
  13. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

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    I am wondering where the fuel that bleeds off goes to -- seems that it either bleeds back to the tank through the pump check valves or through the injectors. Through the injectors is probably not good. I am assuming that Ferrari anticipates that the fuel will bleed back to the tanks thus the drop in pressure.
    However they don't indicate what the pressures should be after the initial drop. If as the OP says that he started with a 24 hour cold engine and no pressure then it really has to bleed back to the tank otherwise there would be an awful lot of fuel in the cylinders/crankcase.
    The diagram doesn't show a typical return line with a pressure regulator so I assume the pump maintains a set fuel rail pressure.
    Just a few thoughts.
    Alan
     
  14. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #14 vrsurgeon, Nov 4, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Good question Alan!

    The feed from the pumps is a single pipe to the injectors. There is only one outlet from the pump.

    When you open the pump, there are two pieces of plastic in the assembly held by two rods with a spring that holds tension on the lower piece, firmly pressing it onto the bottom of the tank. There are two hoses from the bottom to the top piece of plastic. One is a fuel out put from the pump, the other the fuel return to tank. The siphon is on the bottom of the lower piece of plastic that is a plastic mesh filter.

    Its the top piece of plastic that has the fuel pressure return/relief valve. Supposedly this is the valve that can get weak/no completely close, thus draining pressure from the system. It sound good to me IMHO..
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  15. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    Curt,
    Are you referring to my fuel system? Does it all appear normal to you? Should I move to another possibility? Assuming the fuel situation is normal, I now reset the computer, checked the fuel and charged/checked the battery. What would you recommend next?
    Is it possible that I just got a bad tank of gas? I believe that this whole cold stumble issue is happening on the same tank of gas so far. I went through a little more than 1/2 of it so far, so a fill up is probably a solid week away from now (there is going to be some rain during the week....yes it WILL melt if I use it in the rain, LOL).
     
  16. blkdiablo33

    blkdiablo33 F1 Rookie

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    when i had my 360 ,i had same concern.i replaced both my mafs with factory ones and not aftermarket and it solved the concern.but for others with same cocnern that changed there mafs didnt work for everyone
     
  17. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    Should my next step be to clean the MAF sensors?
    If so, how do I go about it?
    Do I pull the air cleaner covers and spray cleaner in there, or do I find the proper security bit, and remove the MAF sensor out of the side of the air tubing to clean it?
     
  18. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Next phase I'd do is pull the MAF sensors via the Torx bits and clean them. Then I'd check he vacuume lines and air intake connectors, nothing degraded or loosened?

    I would expect that if the fuel pressure was the issue, it would be an obvious greater than 10-20% deviation from expected IMHO.
     
  19. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    I'm curious, so I'm going to do the same test and let us see what we have. I'll report back tomorrow with my results.
     
  20. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    Awesome! Thanks
     
  21. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    Are there any vacuum lines in particular that I should focus on? Are there any lines that are buried under the side panels, by the gas tanks, or are they all by the intake manifold?

    I used to have a 1986 Mustang Gt that had issues with the air bypass valve. I guess the valve acted as a choke sort of. If that thing got dirty, the idle would hunt around a bit and have trouble with cold starts. Is there anything similar on this car that you know of? I don't think that's the issue because in this case, 1 bank of cylinders is simply not firing at all, it's not just running rough. I just figured I would throw it out there since I'm at a loss.
     
  22. mello

    mello F1 Veteran
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    I just replaced all the intake runner gaskets a few weeks ago. I decided to replace all the oetiker clamps with new hose clamps on the engine only. I didn't bother with the side panels or gas tanks. A majority of them are connected to the intake plenum. Pay particular attention to the clamps used on the throttle body and MAF. False air intake around those areas impacts the performance of the engine more than the smaller leaks.

    Inspect the injector o-rings. I replaced mine and lube it with some dielectric grease before re-installation. That's one area of leakage where a lot of people don't pay attention to.
     
  23. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    #23 up4speed, Nov 4, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2013
    I checked all of the hoses that were visible, and they seem ok. They are not dry rotted (they actually feel brand new and clean) and they are all connected tightly. The intake hose clamps were also very tight and the bellow tubes didn't budge at all.

    I also had a problem that I posted about in the past. It never bothered me too much so I didn't follow up on it, but now I'm wondering if it's related to this problem I'm having now. The problem I've noticed since I bought the car is that when the engine is cold and I give it a little bit of abrupt throttle, the rpm's drop to about 500, then it catches and comes back up. It doesn't do this after the engine is warmed up for a few minutes, only from a cold start. I'm thinking that this issue may be associated to the MAF sensors. Is it possible that both problems that I'm experiencing are related?
    Here is a video of the RPM drop:
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egob5AkPy1E[/ame]
     
  24. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    First thing I would do is pour a can of Techron in the tank and see if it helps the problem by cleaning out the injectors. Worked on my 575M.
     
  25. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
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    I already put in Techron a few tankfulls ago. It was even before I had this new issue. I was trying to fix the issue in the above video, it didn't work :(
     

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