The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

I think Lulu Wang's GTO got "less original" last weekend......

But at least it was out there...not locked in a consortium of "investments".
Although I guess that group does run the cars as well.

It's expected to have to freshen them up occasionally.....

 

At the end Dan was simply cruising. He was holding to 6250 rpm's. He was simply going fast enough to win. When Bruce got the pole he turned a 3:22.
That record has NEVER been broken by any car. (Compairing Apples to Apples Le Mans track configuration) Dan told me that he could have passed the P4's at will at anytime and I believe him.

 

At Silverstone a couple of years ago I spoke with a mecanic of Piper about the P4 (0900). The car had engine 0846 (Daytona winning engine) in it. So what I do not understand from Piper is that why buidling a new car instead of restoring the 'what is to believed' the real '0846 chassis' Didn't he or his crew check the chassis. I thought they were specialists.....OR they made a big mistake....rebuilding 0846 with engine 0846 should turn in a multi million dollar car or make a new and only worth parts price+
And maybe Jim's recreation uses the original chassis. Will the car get the offical Ferrari papers of 0846 or will it be the 'same story' as 0720TR?

 

Hello Paul,
Uncompetive was probably a poor choice of words. But Piper always had a way of making things work beyond what you would expect.

Since the P4's were essentially banned from racing, Ferrari would naturally no longer be interested in repairing a chassis they could not use. In there view a wrecked P3/4 chassis was just a pile of junk, just like you said.

Its likely had Ferrari been allowed to developed the P4 further, they would have as good as anything else out there. It certainly would have done better in Can Am if they could have coaxed more power from the engine.

I love Ferrari's, I'm not a huge Ford fan but I like them too. I wasn't around to see them actually race so I do not have first hand insight. It was just my understanding from everything I've read that the MKIV was a superior car. I'm sure this one will be debated for a long time. Either way the P4 is much more pleasing to the eye.

Ed

 

Hi
Did you see the engine stampings or was this something you were told? Do you have any photo's? I believe that the block and likely the 603 transaxle and the right side chassis tube that had 0846's original chassis plate affixed to it were destroyed in the Le Mans fire of 67. Do you know that the block and transaxle survived the fire or that the Daytona engine was a different engine?
Best

 

Tom, something isn't quite right with your conversation with Piper's mechanic. How could they identify the engine that won Daytona from any other engine? And if the engine WAS numbered 0846 (do they number the engine to match the chassis on the P3 and P4??? - Jim's invoice from Piper says he got engine #0003) then it would be a P3 engine that would not fit into a P4 chassis. If they had the engine that won at Daytona in 1967 (a P4 engine) then it could not be engine #0846. It might have been an engine that had been used in chassis #0846 at some point in its life. Make sense?

"Queeek, Meester Piper want this motore hidden right away!"

 

I don't know. They told me that the car (0900) was a new one, number assigned by Ferrari, but that the engine was the Daytona winning engine!

 

There is nothing wrong with your last statement. It could have been the engine which won at Daytona (a P4 engine), and it was a chassis built or modified to P4 specifications (0900). But I don't think it could be "engine 0846", if that is what they told you. Simple misunderstanding.

 

Jim, I would tend to agree that is what happened, but than we have Massini claiming to have seen a chassis that still had the 846 plate on it, some 10 years later.

 

Dr.

After you read over the document which is in the mail to you I think you'll have a possible explanation for that but I'll wait until you've read the doc.
Check out this photo Paul S. emailed me. Compare the body to the body now fitted to my car. (Above with my MK-IV) Note the blended in rear spoiler and blended in raised from the bottom as opposed to the P3 separate rear window surround (0850). This makes me believe that my body is in fact NOS P4. BTW Max has in writing retracted that he Misappropriated my body and has offered to let me have a look for myself to confirm this claiming as an American I misunderstood his use of the word "swapped out." Paul's S. photo makes me think my body is in fact NOS made by "The Old Man" Allegretti as David warranted it was. I wonder why this car which Paul S. thinks is 0856. (I think he's right) is bearing #23?
As Paul S. is right about 0846 having only raced as a spyder (as I said before I was wrong about that) it can't be wearing 0846's doors as these are coupe doors. Unless 0846 was once tested as a coupe? The line of the Tail vs. the line of the door makes that unlikely unless they changed the sill panel as well. I think Paul S. is right and this is 0856 but it is strange that it's wearing 23. Paul S. thinks this is a test shot at Monza.
Have to resize photo will post later

Jeff
0900 and "0900a" are built to P4 Blueprints.

 

I'm eagerly awaiting the booklet to arrive. Quite frankly, I'm more concerned with the chassis than the coachwork.

 

Are you a Demoscrap or a Reproblican?

 

Neither. I'm a vehimently anti-socialist Libertarian.

 

I'm going to toss out a totally wacky scenario here. What do you think?

One of the Ferrari P4 drivers at LeMans in 1967 was Gunther Klass (in #0860). Now Mr. Klass was killed at the wheel of a Ferrari during pre-race testing for the Mugello Grand Prix, not long after LeMans (six weeks later). The records I have found on the internet indicate that he was at the wheel of a Dino 206SP, chassis number 0842. It left the track, hit a tree, split in two, and was destroyed, killing the driver. There is no record of chassis 0842 after this accident.

I got to thinking....what if? What if Klass was actually driving 0846? He was apparently entered in the race at Mugello in a different Dino, a 206S. The 412 #0848 also competed in the race, according to the entry list, so 0846 would have been eligible. What if Ferrari did a quicky rebuild on 0846 after the LeMans fire and sent it out for a test run? And it crashed.... And the barchetta website says that 0846 was destroyed at Mugello (but in 1968).

What then, became of 0842?? Well, we have a semi-unsolved mystery of what chassis was used to build the P5 prototype. Experts say it was NOT 0846, it was smaller in all dimensions, probably based on a Dino. Hmmmm, like maybe a Dino 206SP? Like maybe 0842?

So maybe Tom Meade acquired a totally wasted P4 chassis from 0846 after a serious fatal crash, not after a fire in the right rear corner? And tossed it into a scrapyard as trash. I've always wondered why he couldn't have repaired the damaged chassis to 0846, he was supposed to be good at that kind of fabrication work.

So where did JG's modified P3/P4 chassis come from? Supposedly Piper ordered three new P4 chassis to be built from the original blueprints, and one of them does not match the other two. Maybe Piper had a P3 engine sitting around and wanted to fit it into one of the new chassis. Then changed his mind and had the chassis modified to fit a P4 engine, like the others. If he had the blueprints, he would know how to make the modification exactly the same way the factory did it. Are there other differences between the P3 and P4 chassis, besides the motor mount locations? Is JG's chassis identifiable as a P3 in any other way?

So - someone who knows a lot about the 206SP Dino, please come along and tell me that it is absolutely 100% certain that the car Gunther Klass was driving when he was killed at Mugello in 1967 was #0842, and there is no possibility at all that it was #0846. And I'm not talking about just finding a listing on the internet that says it was #0842 - I'm talking about something concrete, like a picture showing a wrecked 6-cylinder Dino.

I'd say there less than a 1% chance that this story is true, but hey, but if it IS true, you saw it here first!

Jim, this is not intended to discredit you or your car in any way at all. I'm having fun here. I'm one of your fans.

 

I guess you missed this post
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134365585&postcount=64

... and much, much more.

Next!

 

Jeff
If you look at P5's chassis you can see while it's Dino like in size it's not built from ANY wrecked chassis. It's simply a very simple show car chassis that never ran under power. It's quite straight and undamaged. It's so simple that it would have taken much more work to repair a damaged chassis than to build it up new to Dino dimensions.

As for "wrecked in Mugello" I believe that comes from the thought that Ferrari used 0846 as a mule for the 612 Can Am one of which was crashed testing at Mugello in 68 but I don't think that is correct either as cramming a 612 engine into a burnt P3 chassis doesn't make sense either.

My Chassis is P3 NOT BUILT TO 1967 P4 BLUEPRINTS as are 0900 and 0900a. That is the point. It is a P3 chassis modified as per Ferrari's Technical Data (Build) sheets to except a P4 engine and shorten it's P3 wheelbase of 2412mm to a P4 wheelbase of 2400mm.

Tom Meade DID try to sell 0846 in 1971. In front of Ted Johnson, and Coco Chenitti Tom Meade offered to fully restore and deliver a P4 Coupe by repairing a wrecked P4 chassis, and using a NOS P4 coupe body, to ME for $19,000. The idea of giving Tom $19,000 became less appealing as he took longer and longer to return my calls and I moved on and bought an ex Pensky/Donohue Lola which I still have

Remember what Patrick Faucompre said about this.

"Tom Meade had a garage in Modena in the sixties, which he shared (far Later) with David Piper.

Tom told me had in the early 70's two and a half P.4, in pieces, in his Modena garage. He needed space and personally threw out the chassis-tube of 0846 in a Modena junkyard, because nobody was interested by such parts, and traded or sold to David in 1971 a complete P.4 body"

 

This thread is going in circles, sadly. Just give it a rest.

Jim has a great car, whatever it is, and he has been patient and courteous with all of us.

Wish him well, and unless YOU have any research as you demand, well:








This has been a public service message from the society to prevent wasted bandwidth.
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

How dare you use an authentic picture to a comment like that
that is low....very low!

 

Fair enough. Sorry. I'll try not to rock the boat as I step out of it. Happy sailing.

 

No more comments from me either until I get the booklet and thoroughly review it.

 

Jeff
Those of us who've read the document that's under argon gas and begins with the words: "Congress shall make no law" know that ALL humor is protected speech.

Those of us who went to Woodstock also know: "If they can't take a joke Fu ck em."
Best

 

Dear Mr. Napolis and P4 Staff

>>As I said. Let´s compare the steel tube structure that
>>Glickenhaus think is authentic to a known authentic. P4 Staff.
>
>So far I've not heard from anyone who thought my car
>has the same steel structure as 0856 which is a good thing.
>
>0856 is a P4. 0900 and 0900a, as they are built to P4 blueprints
>have the same steel tube structure as 0856. My car does not.
>It has the same steel tube structure as P3/P4 0846

I think you two simply misunderstand each other.

P4 Staff probably used the word "structure" in the sense "proportion of molecules and metal alloys being used in steel ", while your reply interprets "structure" as "chassis geometry".

I guess P4 Staff guy wants you to hire a metallurgist scientist to look at a sliced sample of you car's chassis tube under a microscope and detemine if the metal alloy composition is consistent with steels manufactured in italian blast furnaces of the mid-1960's.

Or maybe even compare steel tube material samples of your car with another, spotless history 330P series vehicle's. However, considering the multi-million dollar value of 330Ps, good luck finding someone who allows such an intrusive investigation on his beloved racecar.

Sincerely: Tamas Feher from Hungary.

 

>That would be CHASSIS, not the body

The most impotant part of a superb car is The Body.
(Some call here Elle)

Motori, telaio, carrozzeria can wait.

 

Well, at least we know mr Ferrari himself would disagree...

 

Exactly....Take a sample and compare it to the other known chassis built from the same stock of tubes.
STAFF.