The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Hope it worked.

 

This talk of newshounds and photographers gave me a sense of ‘deja-vu’, and I remembered seeing a photo of the damage sustained by #0846 in this accident (which was predominantly to the offside wheels) having been posted before. I finally found it in the ‘P4 in Red’ thread on the old FerrariChat. Scroll down to Wednesday 23rd July, 2003 where ‘Boudewijn’ posted a photo and Jim commented in the subsequent post. From the grainy reproduction of this photograph, I would suspect that it was scanned from a newspaper.
As Nino was (and still is) something of a local hero (and acknowledged Targa specialist, having won previously in a 275 P2 in ‘65) the fact that he pranged #0846 in his home town of Collesano, probably made front page headlines. Hence all the photographers ….

 

P4 hits the curb - moment of impact - notice dust just behind right rear wheel - how this damaged the left hand side hard enough to require welding is difficult to understand. Especially as the photo shows the left side to be undamaged. Maybe Mr Sparling's memory isn't as good as he thinks.
Nathan

 

Take a look at Photo in 580.

There are 3 known incidents that befell 0846. Bandini's flip at the Targa in 66. Vaccarella's slide/crash at the Targa in 67. Amon's fire at Le Mans in 67.

Bandini's flip likely torqued the chassis. The chassis in my car is torqued/twisted. It can only be made straight by shimming.

Vaccarella hit the right side hard into a high curb at an angle directing most of the force to the rear of the right rear wheel breaking the wheel and the A arm at the rear. The force travelled across the rear chassis transverse which is very strong, which acted as a lever and bent/bowed out the two longest left side angled back to front chassis tubes at their weakest point outwards. The welds on each end of these tubes have never been redone and are consistant with the welds in 80% of the rest of the chassis. The outwards bow in the center of both tubes are still visable and the tubes were heated bent, back, and braised "repaired with a trackside torch".

The photo (BBC TV) and discription (Ferrari Records) of the Amon fire clearly show what chassis tubes were likely destroyed and on my chassis these tubes have been replaced by tubes that are 30 thousands of an inch different in size. Perfectly straight and the welds on this section of my chassis were done at at different time with different techniques than the other approx. 80% of my chassis.

That coupled with the unique construction of my chassis and the fact that while 0900 and 0900a are built to "1967 P4 Chassis Blueprints" and my chassis is built to P3 Blueprints and modified EXACTLY as described in "Ferrari's Technical Build Sheets P3/P4 0846" are some of the reasons that I and others feel that my chassis contains between 80 and 90% of the remains of 0846.

When Mr.Vaccarella is reunited with my car next June perhaps he'll remember a thing or two.

 

Steffan
The original Tires fitted to the P4 as per S.P.A. were:
Firestone 4.75 10.30-15 F
Firestone 6.00 12.30-15 R

The overall Dia. would thus be 24.5 F (4.75x2+15)
27.0 R (6.00x2+15)

The oa. dia. is IMO what you want to keep the same even if you use wider rims which the Avon's I've fitted do.

The first photo is one that Nathan sent Paul S. of what Paul thinks is 0900 and Paul said was ok to post running wider tires and flares in the rear.
The second photo is my car running the same sized wider rear tires as 0900. but flaring the body instead of adding flares.
Best

 

Has anybody got a photo they can post of Piper with 412P #0854 at Kyalami in 1968? I have the Remember 1:43 model of this car. The car was then still a Berlinetta, carrying race #3, with the white windscreen sun strip and Coca-cola sponsor decals all over it .... and the biggest rear wheelarch extensions you could imagine on a P4 !

 

I don't have the Kyalami pic, but I do have pics from Paris (Monthléry) 1968, where I presume it had the same modifications.
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Perfect ! Thanks, Boudewijn ....
Yes, those are the same wheel arch extensions, except (according to the Remember 1:43 model), by Kyalami, they had been painted to match the body colour - BP green. In fact, your Monthléry photos probably show them better! Thanks again ....

 

Paul
WOW! Do you think those are 15x15? Is part of it the difference P3 and P4 bodies? We really didn't need much of a flare.
Best

 

Probably, Jim. Most likely factory cast-offs from the '67 Can-Am programme, or even F1 rears. You know 'Pipes' - whatever he can do to get the best from his machinery and gain an 'edge' on the competition - Anything goes !

 

I don't have the Kyalami pic me too, but I do have pics from Coppa Internationale 3 hours Cape Town 1968 (23/11/68).

Best regards

Christophe

 

That is such an odd car. Does anyone have a picture of the rear of that car? I have the 1/43 Remember model and they did the car having the 1966 type P3 rear, meaning it has a split in the middle type rear. Is the Remember model correct? I thought by 1968 Piper had changed all his rear bonnets to the P4 style look.

Another crazy Piper car that I wish I had more pictures of so I could build a model of it in 24th.

Ed

 

1967 1000 km Paris:

I jsut found a very small B/W photo of the grid of this race in the French magazine Classic and Racing, August-September 2004 isuue, that I picked up just the other day on my trip to Paris.

Looking forward from mid-grid, on the pole is a Mirage-Fod, driven by Hawkins and Ickx. Next to it is the Hobbs-Wilson T70 Lola. The 2nd row is the P3/4 of Siffert and Piper. Unfortunately, the picture is so small you can't see the cars very well. Is this 846??

I can try and scan the photo and post it if people want, but even with photo shop, I don't think it will come out very well

 

That was Ferrari 412P #0854 again (vide supra) finishing 5th overall.

 

Thanks Boudewijn. From memory I thought it was a 412, but the caption below the photo says P3/4...

 

Thought I'd bring this back to the top........

First is the 1966 Ferrari F1 engine with 36 valves and intakes between the cams that was debuted and won with Scarfiotti in the Italian GP at Monza; the same engine as in the P5.

Second is the Ferrari garage at Le Mans 1967 - presumably this is during the repairs on the car that crashed in practise. The poor quality is due to it being a scan of a photocopy.


Paul M
Image Unavailable, Please Login
Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Hi Paul M.

That is a great scan of the garage floor! It really shows what it was like on the day.

As I told you I would, I have confirmed with Alberto Pedretti that my engine currently displaces 4 liters.

I'm also in the process of registering my 166S 002C with Ferrari S.P.A. so that it may be put in my "Ferrari Garage" on their web site along with my P4 0846 which has been there for several years.
As you can see from the following email contrary to what some have alleged this is a rigorous and thorough process.

Dear Mr Glickenhaus,

We would like to inform you that we have received the complete brochure of your car.

We would kindly ask you to provide us with some digital pictures of the car, if possible, so to forward them to the competent department for classical cars. Once these data have been entered, the car can be visualized in your ‘Ferrari Garage’.

We thank you for your patience and would like to underline that these are not standard procedures. Being yours a unique car, we need to work in a very scrupulous way.

We thank you very much for the kind cooperation and remain at your complete disposal for further information.

With kindest regards,

Ferrari Customer Care

Best

 

Godness Glick....

Is it in any way confirmed that your car is #0846???

Staffan.

 

Staffan

The email in my post, which you quoted, speaks for itself and is additional proof that the allegation contained in the body of Cognoscenti's post as well as his concluding statement are simply not true.

Best
Jim

"Originally Posted by tifosi12
Ferrari North America lists 0846 as Jim's car on its owners' website. How much more official can it get?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Napolis
The copyright holder of the web site you cited where the information you cited has been posted for the last several years is Ferrari S.P.A. not Ferrari NA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by catman60957
Who better to pass judgment on authenticity than Ferrieri its self? They would have had to examined the car themselves, and if they OK'ed it, it doesn't really matter what anyone else say's.

From a somewhat more authoritative source than FerrariChat (most of whose members can, at least, actually spell the word Ferrari):

"Ferrari did (as far as I know) produce a set of uprights (and no other parts to my knowledge) for this car.
ANY claim that this means that Ferrari agrees that this is the real 0846, or any statement along those lines, is incorrect.
Contrary to what has been written and claimed in several places, Ferrari S.p.A. and Ferrari NA have no position on this car. Period.
(And that includes any statement that the car is mentioned/pictured on an official Ferrari web site.)
If Jim wishes to have Ferrari ‘approve’ the car there is a well-defined procedure, which has been discussed with him.
He may or may not choose to do this -- I suspect not, based on his intended use, and that's his business.”

End of this particular discussion. Period.

Cognoscenti"

 

The fact that Ferrari S.P.A. recognises Mr. Clickenhaus's car as being 0846 is nice. But there's still that missing link in the historic chain. Unless ofcourse Ferrari S.P.A. has info on that missing link. That would be very interesting and hopefully conclusive proof.

 

Jim allowed me to spend as much time with "0846" as I wanted to last Saturday (which turned out to be about 3 hours). I crawled all over the car and if it is a "fake", it is a better fake than the factory could have made. Having seen the car in the flesh, I am convinced that the mechanical parts that are there are not only original, but correct. True, the body work is "NOS", but the car has been faithfully restored to a period as raced condition.

Its a wonderful car and Jim should be congratulated that he took the time to preserve it rather than turn it into garage art. What was even more over the top was to see J6 parked next to it. On one side, the best lightweight Italian race car that craftsman could have come up with using their hands. On the other, a brick **** house that was so sorted that it was signed all over by the hundreds of engineers that worked on the program. Ferrari didn't have a prayer.

I will post detailed "naked" pictures on Velocetoday.com next week.

PS. Jim, yes, the blood has returned to my left foot and I can feel all of my toes again. Even if I needed to have it amputated, I've got another foot. The 45 minutes in J6 at speed were some of the best 45 minutes of my life. Thanks again for sharing a wonderful Saturday morning run.

Best.

 

Be there. I will...

 

is that EST? what's the show?

 

est. AM News. FOLI.
Best

 

Mr G,
will this be shown in Europe?