The longer coil-on-plugs (cops or coil sticks) are from recent Honda motorcycles, specifically: CBR600 F4 RR 929 CBR954 They all share the same Denso part number. On the 308 you'll need a grommet to keep them centered, secured, and water tight. I got them from McMaster Carr for about .45 each. They come in many sizes, I just measured the outer diameter of the cop and the inner diameter of the plug recess in the valve cover and looked up the closest size listed. JD
Jeff, Start a newpost called stratos and tell use about this replica. Will it do everything the infamos startos can do? Are you starting with a lancia doaner chassis?
too many replica bashers here If any one is interested in Stratos replicas (AND originals), I would suggest they frequent the UK forum: http://www.stratossupersite.com/forum/ In any case, as my supercharged QV comes together, I'll post updates on that. But if you want to see one running, check / search Mark Eberhardt's QV. He's the one I'm working with on the supercharger system. JD
Jeff - Excellent job. Put me down for one interested in a kit. I'm 97 also, so it's a 5.2 Are you headed down to FL anytime soon? Cavallino maybe? Frank ps you have mail.
Don't those coils sit out in the open, on motorcycles? Let us know how they do after a few hot runs. (It gets warm in those plug wells, doesn't it?) I've been dreaming of doing a similar conversion on my 328, but I'm leery of the effects (over time) of cooking the coils.
These coil-on-plugs were designed to sit deep in the head and take the punishment. Modern DOHC motorcycle engines are not dissimilar to the Ferrari. The coils also have a rubber lip seal. The engines are water cooled, and even though the seem to sit in the wind, these bikes have fairings that block the wind and there is no way for the wind to get into the area around the plug. These coils are designed to be where they are. Bikes and racing bikes get hot as well. M/C engines thrive on revs 8 to 12K and if that doesn't generate heat and cylinder pressures, nothing will! BTW, they are also not dissimilar to coil on plugs used on F1 engines, and we all know how hot they run. True, that they get changed every race but I'll bet that the heat generated in an F1 engine for the length of one race is many many years of use on a street car. If there is a coil failure, replacement is cheap. See pic: JD
Got your email. It may be a cou[le of weeks to get the info on kits. I come to FL about every three weeks. I'll be down for the holidays. JD
Hi Jeff, Did you complete the installation and did you find a 2.7 355 to try the installation in? I have a 95 that I want to do this to and I own a machine shop to do whatever mods are required (although my time is really tight due to backlogs), still I am very interested. John
Update on old thread...... So far the MSD DIS4 has performed flawlessly. Looks like most of the pics in the thread have gone to bit heaven. I'll try to repost some shots and some additional shots. Had to use a second set of plug cover gaskets to each side of the spacer is sealed, also longer cap screws were needed to compensate for the thickness of the spacer. Only had 3 or 4 people interested and consideing it took me a good 4 -5 hours to fab up the harnesses, I probably won't be making kits. More than happy to advise however. Regarding the 2.7.... I have no idea if it will work... if the 2.7 uses the same coils as the 5.2 I don't see any problems. looks like the pics didn't upload have no clue why the didn't...did it by the book. JD
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Jeff Do you plug anything into right hand side connector for the old coils ? or does the DIS-4 just plug into the left hand side coil connectors due to the lost spark . Thanks
Here's a simplified schematic. the pictures only showd the left bank (5-8). it's mirrored on the right bank (1-4). I only uploaded the one side for illustration. each bank of the stock Ferrari Botch er...Bosch 5.2 Motronic goes to an input on the MSD DIS4. The Motronic "sees" the MSD as if it were the stock coils. The MSD has 4 channels of output which wire up to 2 coil sticks per side. The others 2 coils per side are wired in parralell to them (as can be seen in the schematic). (disregard the word "series" in the description on the drawing of the resistances of the coils ,,, actually a parralell measurement). Lost or wasted spark means that 2 of the coils are fired at the same time from a single trigger signal. When one plug is tdc for compression (ready to ignite the power stroke) the other is in "exhaust cycle. The spark in the exhaust cycle doesn't do anything and is thus considered wasted. This is why only one DIS4 box is needed. If there were a dedicated signal to each coil per cylider, since the DIS4 is a 4 channel box, then two boxes would be needed. But luckily Ferrari and Bosch chose to use a wasted spark setup. As you can see in the drawing, the coil sticks are "paired up" and wired in parralell to the "shared" trigger signal. JD Image Unavailable, Please Login
While not as an extensive modification as yours, my BB512i has never ran better since I have installed an MSD6AL ignition and coil on my Boxer!
jeff I have been wondering what happened to you on this idea. I would be interested in a kit or some fashion of one. The only reason for myself is trying toget the plug ends and having someone do the machine work on the spacer. I live in Montana that should answer that question. I have a 2.7 car but I think you are correct that there shouldnt be any problem. If you could do the plates and wiring harness as a kit I think that most of us that are interested could do the rest, not difficult to get the DIS box and install system at least in my case. Could you do that ? Thanks for all your time on this project.
I had the spacers made by "emachine shop". They have a drawing program and a web based business where you do the drawings and submit them. They supply an instant quote and then all you do is press the enter key and they make them. The left and right are basically the same profile...BUT They are different lengths and hole paterns. To keep the costs way down, I did the secondary operations myself and designed and used only one blank that I ordered 2 of.., that is shortning the one and drilling the holes myself using the gaskets as a pattern. Left and right are different and they are not symetric from left side to right. If Emachine shop did the secondary ops then the price for a pair would triple from $150 to about $450 for a pair (remember theat left and right are different so 2 different drawings would be needed) Peice price goes down as quantity goes up. I don't mind fabbing for myself, so I opted for the least expensive route considering I wasn't paying my self for my labor. Buying the coils was easy, lots to be found on eBay for cheap. They retail for about $100 each, but can be had from $20 to $50 for 4, depending on the auction. I have not sourced the connectors as I also found surplus motorcycle harnesses on eBay and canibalized the connectors for my own harness. couple of hours labor on the spacers and 4 hours canibalizing and building the new harnesses. Also had to buy Bosch connectors for the MSD unit to plug into the Ferrari harness. All in all about 10 hours plus parts. Not really a financially feasible thing to do for the few others who expressed interest. If there were 10 or more, then it might be worth while to try to outsource the bits and have Emachine shop do the secondary operations. Wire and connectors are relatively cheap, it's just extremely labor intensive to build up harnesses on an individual bassis, especially when old harnesses and connectors need to be canabolized for the parts. Everything is simple and straight forward for a DIY'er. NOT rocket science, Just a steady hand with a pair of snips, drill press and soldering iron. JD
thanks Jeff for your input. I was wondering where you got your plug ends. That info helps alot. I can probably do the same that you did (ebay). Sure do appreciate your research on this. I was with you on the thought as to why Ferrari used such old tech on the 355. The 348 could benefit from this change also. Again thanks for the time on this and sharing it with us.
Not entirely luck, perhaps. With a lost spark arrangement, you can find TDC from flywheel sensors. Determining which one is in compression requires seeing the cam position. Such systems also often use "double tap" port injection, with half the fuel charge delivered to the intake valve on each rev. When the valve opens, both half charges are sucked in. Again, the ECU doesn't need to know which rev has the open valve. I have no idea if the 355 uses double tap injection, but it's fairly common on many cars, because it eliminates the need for a cam position sensor.
dam, wish i'd seen this thread way back when... that was around the time i was considering ignition options on my engine (not 355... other "F" car ) and the COP scenario just seemed so complex and cost-prohibitive. in the end, re-engineering my dizzy, converting to electronic, and going for the MSD-6AL i'm fairly sure i've blown way beyond time and $$$ for what this conversion would be, assuming i'm seeing it right. next time Gadget, next time.
The connectors are available from Ford, as this is the OEM coil on the modular V8 (e.g. 2002 Lincoln Navigator). I'm using the same coils on one of my project 308 engines. On the 2V 308 motor, the fit is PERFECT diameter-wise, but just the slightest bit tall. Image Unavailable, Please Login
I'll be using COP's in the 308QV I'm building. The GSXR are a bit too short. The Honda CBR 954 RR COP's are the perfect length as they have an extended length as can be seen in comparing the pics. AS far as sealing in the QV...I just took measurements of the I.D. of the spark plug well in the head and the O.D. of the COP....went to Mcmaster Carrs catalog and found an appropriately sized grommet. The COP's do have a thin seal that I retained in this application. The thin seal on the COP works perfectly for the 355 without an additional grommet. I was at the Walter Mitty Historics at Road Atlanta a couple of weeks ago and the Nissan GTP car had its rear body work removed....gues what I saw? yep.. these same Denso COP's! Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
