Syncro fix for GT4 #10314

Well, here goes...

I'm going to take pictures of this whole process, so that someone else can see it done step-by-step. So I'll probably ask a lot of questions (like the few below) just to make sure it's done correctly.

I am also going to take my time, as this is a part-time project, and I have a full-time job. But I hope to complete it within the next month or so, depending (of course) on how long it takes to get the parts. I haven't ordered them yet, because I'm not sure of the overall condition of the transmission, and wether or not there are other issues. So I'm going to wait until I see what it needs before I buy anything.

I got it up on stands and ramps.

My ramps aren't as nice as Robert's Garvins. And I was not able to drive the car up onto them because my car has a later series spoiler that is in the way. But, I was able to drive it up onto a couple of free-weights (new they'd come in handy for something!) to give enough room to get my dolly under it, so that I could jack it up and then set the ramps under the front tires. And yes. It does lift the tires off of the ramp and teeters, when you jack up the back, just like Robert says. But it settles back down nicely when you set it on the stands.

BTW: 215/60x14's are a PITA, IMHO. I thank God I never got a flat!

Took off the inner wheel wells and took a few pics to post.

I'm not sure I have the stands in the "best" spot. But most of the weight right now is on the dolly, which you can see is in the center union of the frame. And I wanted to make sure I could get to everything that needs to be disconnected before removing the engine and wanted to make sure they were well out of the way.

And I know they look like they're low. That is because they are low. They're only on the first click. And I did that because I want to make sure the car is low enough for my hoist to get the engine out.


So next:

Drain the antifreeze.
Drain the oil and transmission (is this necessary?)
Drain the gas and remove the tanks (is this necessary too?)
Remove the A/C compressor
Remove the oil cooler and housing.
Disconnect and remove fuel lines and coolant hoses
Remove the silent block
Disconnect high-tension leads (should I leave the caps on?)
Remove muffler assembly and rear header
Disconnect and remove CV/axel assemblies
Disconnect motor mounts.
Remove the engine cover.

I understand the front header can come out attached. Can anyone verify the accuracy of this?

Thanks a bunch for watching this:
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Good news!

A clean pretty drain plug. There was a very very light bit of grit that felt like 220 grit sandpaper. And it came off on the blue shop towel, when the plug rolled over in my hand.

The first few oz's. of fluid that came out was dark. After that, the remainder was fairly clear.
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I was in the same boat, did it during weekends. It took me ten months...

 

Peter I don't think you have to remove the gas tanks as you only have to unbolt the header and leave it in the engine bay until you remove the engine at least that is how I did it but you must remember to put the header back in the engine bay before you put the engine back in.Also David another thing that you have to disconnect is the gear shift shaft that penetrates the gearbox.I also removed the air filter box and from memory removed the cambelt covers(they will come off anyway if you are doing the belts and tensioner bearings).Whether or not this is necessary I dont know but it made clearance easier as you will find out how tight it is.As I mentioned in another post I think we removed the bell housing and starter motor as well and the alternator but I cant remember exactly but I do remember leaving it all off when we put the engine back in.I did a complete engine rebuild including Hi comp pistons and rings,stainless valves and new valve guides with just a little porting (mainly cleaned everything up).I had to replace one of the exhaust cams as the lobes were worn out.New clutch, belts and tensioner bearings.Starter motor solenoid was replaced.New bearings all round.The crank was balanced.I had to replace an oil pump gear and I replaced the second gear synchro.The distributors were regraphed.I replaced the timing pulleys with lightweight alluminium ones and thats about it.I replaced the firewall panel and generally tidied up the engine bay and had all the alluminium parts beadblasted to look new.The next project I will do is the suspension bushes and rebuild the steering rack which I hope to do within the next month or so.So good luck and keep us informed

 

Hi Peter,
I have been told you can refurb the gearbox on a GT4 without removing the engine.
This may be a better option.
Its a lot of work to remove the power unit when you may not have to.

Has anybody else seen this before ?

 

As far as I know it cant be done or it is so difficult to do that its not worth it and removing the engine and seperating on the bench is much easier but I could be wrong

 

Thanks for the input guys!

In my previous thread on the car (1975 308 GT4 #10314), aleventhal said,

I asked my mechanic about this again, and he said that what can be done, is that the engine can be raised slightly with a jack, to give room to get to the area where the 2nd & 3rd syncros are located.

But in this case, there are two other issues that are prompting me to pull the engine anyway.

1) The engine wasn't detailed when it was rebuilt a couple of years ago.

2) The engine compartmenet has that undercoating that they used to put on cars, to protect them from rust. I don't need it here in California. It attracts dirt and grime. It looks terrible and I want to remove it. And it's EVERYwhere on this car. Even around the top of the engine bay.

Plus, pulling the engine will give me a chance to check out the suspension bushings and other items that may need some attention.

Since this is a car where the vast majority of mechanicals are located in the engine compartment, this looks (to me) like a good opportunity to bring the car back to near new condition, and make it look cosmetically attractive at the same time.

Maurice,

Thank you for the note on the gas tanks. I had a question that I asked Robert Garvin about privately, regarding recoditioning the tanks. He suggested that I start a thread on the reconditioning of the gas tanks, if I should decide to do that, because no one has done that yet. I'm still deciding. But if I do decide to do it, I'll take his advice and start another thread on that too, once I map out a way to properly drain the gas, and then remove them. Seems easy enough. Not too expensive. And probably worth it in the end.

 

David,
I gotta give ya credit brother, you're diving right in! Best of luck! How long do you expect the car will be out of circulation?

Birdman

 

Beware the "might as well"s

They will turn a minor project into a 10-year ground-up restoration -- or worse, turn a running car into a scattered pile of parts looking for a new wallet to empty.

Just sayin', that's all

 

Birdman,

Thank you. 1-2 months tops. My cheerleader is also a great motivator. I'm going to do the fuse blocks at the end of this project. And as I promised, I'll make a short (hopefully very short) video of what it takes to do it too.


Tillman,

That's very good advice.

I can already see that there are a lot possiblities to dig a very deep hole. Luckily, the only thing the powerplant needs is that syncro. And the rest shouldn't cost too much.

I was talking to someone about the possibility of restoring this back to the condition it may have been in, when it took 2nd at the Concours in PA. But I think that's out of the question for the following reasons:

1) It now sports a later series lower front grill opening (money to correct)
2) Missing front grill (more money. But I may buy this anyway, as I like the look of the later series grill)
3) Missing all of the smog stuff, pump, canister, etc. (more money)
4) Rear bumper is a disaster (even more money)
5) Would need a re-spray to show (Figure, $10K from Raphael Arroyo. So I figure that'd be a mortgage on the house)

And that ain't gonna happen! So, it comes down to money, money, money.

But I really just want to drive the car. And I'll drive it daily if I keep it.

My Alfa has been the most reliable car I have ever owned. It has nearly 300K miles on it, and is going strong. I don't see why this car can't do the same.

 

Tonights afterwork exercise consisted of:

1) removing the oil cooler
2) disconnecting the rear header assembly


1) No problems disconnecting and removing the oil cooler unit. But, the in the picture below, you can see that this looks very much like an OEM unit, as it does not seem to fit too well into the housing. Whoever installed it last, used a plastic-tie to attach it to the bottom of the housing. Very professional... NOT!

Has anyone seen this type of unit before? It seems like it might be larger then the factory unit. The car was located in Florida for awhile. Maybe they needed something larger because of the heat? Any advantage/disadvantage to a unit like this? Not important. Just curious.

2) Whoever put the glasspacks (the ones I replaced with a 22" MagnaFlow) on, used 12mmx2" bolts to attach the unit to the header, and man did I have one heck of at time trying to get those nuts off past the rust! When I put it back together, I'll probably use 1.25" bolts instead. All that extra thread is useless. And there is precious little room to twist a wrench under there!

But the picture shows another problem. The header is attached to the head with soft copper nuts with flanges. And you can call me, "ham-handed", because I probably deserve it!

I tried to get the nut (on the right side of #2) off from the slightly "off-angle" position below, where the picture is taken from. I tried that first, because from the top, I have no visibility because of it's position underneath the head. And of course, it mashed the edges of the nut when I did that, because the 12-sided socket didn't fit very neatly onto the nut. I should have used the hex socket instead.

So now a wrench won't stay on it. I can't see it, so I don't know if I can get a (hex) socket on it, because of the close proximity to the header pipe. I know on the #1, I had a hell of a time getting the nut off, unseen with about ten tries to get a single turn of the nut, for the same reason. A socket wouldn't fit past the pipe. In fact, the #1 had a steel nut without a flange to fit. But I finally got it off.

Any suggestions on that last one though?

Question:

I know (read actually) that the engine comes out with the differential sliding against the rear panel, until it clears the engine bay. And it's likely that no one has tried what I will suggest, because once you're at that point, you simply remove the engine and think no more about it.

But....

Might it be possible, when it gets up that far (and if I leave the header attached) to tilt the engine rearward more, to let the header clear as well?

Because if that's the case, I can leave it attached and remove the nut more easily once the engine is out.

Thanks a bunch. And thanks for watching!
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That doesnt seem to be the original cooler.The original cooler has 18 rows.Wish I could help you out with the header nut.Have you tried 1/4" drive with universal joint?Also when you replace the flange bolts you should use stainless.

 

I looked up some prices on oil radiators.

ICP want's $650.
McCann want's $595 (old style) and $395 for some newer one. But the correct pn (old#106965 new#145712) doesn't list a price. Just had a little ~ instead. I guess that means the price wavers depending on how much you want it, and how often it gets ordered.

I'm taking Tillmans' advice. This is one I'll leave "as is". It's not worth replacing. And besides, it works. And probably better than OEM too.

I'm at work now, and call me, "nutty", But I'm itching to get back to that nut and get the sucker off of there!

I'll try the 1/4" drive. I have a 1/4" hex-socket that I was trying last night, when I finally gave up, exasperated. I had it attached to a 3/8" reducer, with a universal joint on the end. I may try putting the UJ further down one of the extensions to get a better angle for more torque. Probably should have tried that last night, but didn't think of it.

 

The oil cooler looks original to me, at least, OEM, but it could be a 328 cooler. Do your hoses look fairly new and what are the sizes of the nut-fitting ends (original 308 were either 18 or 20mm thread I believe and the 328 uses either 22 or 24mm)?

In any case, I faced the problem of replacing mine as it had leaked twice and decided to adapt an aftermarket cooler in place (made by B&M).

It works very good, in fact too good. But required way too much fabrication to adapt. I had invested the time into it and carried on, but realised in the end I would have probably been better off forking over the dough and buying the OEM cooler. Although, I do feel better with this new one, as now all of my hoses run Aeroquip AN fittings which makes future hose replacement a breeze (what I really wanted to do. The OEM uses DIN and banjo fittings which were difficult to source. Besides, the hose builder who made my hoses with those fittings f---ed them up and they leaked. This time, I made my hoses).

As for the exhaust flange nuts, you'll have to find a really thin wall socket to try to remove it. Even if you have to grind it down so that it'll fit and it may break because of that, if you get it off, it'll be worth it. I got my headers off using both wrenches and sockets and yes, royal P.I.T.A...

 

As for exhaust bolts, I have been running with great success, Ferrari 288 GTO spring-bolts. They're proper Ferrari-spec and way cheaper than the stock 308 bolts!

I've had them on my car for already a couple of years and they're still tight and clean.
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Peter,

Must be a 328. Don't know the size, but more than 20mm. Had to use a crescent to get it off. Luckily, they were on very gently.

Thanks for the referral to the exhasut nuts. What's the advantage of having ones with the spring and sleeve like that? I know my pool-pump bracket has that setup, but I always thought it was for expansion. Why would you want that on an exhaust fitting?

Well, my nutty solution to the stripped exhaust header nut continues as follows:

Pic #1. Hollywood (wannabe) filmmakers always have an abundance of exotic tools on-hand. It is after all an exotic car. Right? I figured I could get a better view of where the nut was, but using my camera and portable monitor. Result? My hand (and the wrench) just got in the way. And my sense of direction was ALL screwed-up!

So, in despiration I tried a last ditch effort that I knew was do-or-die. Vice-grips. I have a neat little pair of needle-nose grips. But I only made the problem worse.

So I sat back and took long breath and decided the next best thing would be to (not so) simply pull the head.

Pic #2 Cam cover came off.

Pic #3 Timing belt cover won't fit past the frame member chassis.

#$(#$&#*$&($#(&*$#(*&#$(*&$#(*#&$!!!!!!!

Okay... (calming down) So I have to raise the motor a little to do this? Ugh!

Oh well. It's Saturday and I've got all day.

Time to take a trip to the toy store.
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Gawd I love the toy-store!

For those who have never had this problem, be thankful. For the rest of us, there's Bolt-Out!

It's out. Took all of 5 minutes. Should have taken no more than 2min. But I had to fish the socket out from behind the diff housing where I dropped it.

and the 2nd picture show's what happens when you lay on a wrench that's been sitting in the hot So. Calif. sun for 2hrs. OUCH!!!!
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The flanges on the ends of the manifolds (where they attach to the muffler) use the typical-style (GM specifically) doughnuts to allow flexing of the exhaust system (between engine and muffler). The springs exert constant sealing pressure against the flange doughnut, whilst still allowing some flex as the engine rocks in the engine bay. If you were to use plain nuts and bolts, they'll come loose within very few miles (because of vibration and flexing).

 

After all that I'm glad you got it out.I didn't want to post this before as to not make you feel bad but I have pulled the rear header off my GT4 3 times before and it has never taken me more than an hour to do it.But agrred it is a royal pain to do so.I'm not sure if you know this but if you were just pulling the header out and not the whole engine you would have to remove the heat shield (if it still is there) and loosen the rear engine mount bolts and slightly jack up the rear of the motor to get it out.I know that you are pulling the engine out but thought I would just thow this in for next time if you ever need to pull the header out for any reason and for the benefit of anyone else.I had to pull it out the first time because it had developed a crack and had it repaired.Then about a year later I had another crack in it and removed it to be repaired.Then the last time I removed it was when I pulled the engine out for the rebuild.Sorry David I forgot what was the initial reason that you are pulling the engine out in the first place?Was it to replace or repair the front header?

 

Everything is out and the engine is ready to be pulled.

I removed the A/C compressor. I had a little trouble getting the bottom bracket off, but after performing a search here on F-Chat I learned that you have to pull the studs holding the bracket to the cam cover, in order to get it off. I wrestled with that task for several hours before deciding to try pulling the bolts from the A/C compressor instead. No more than ten minutes later, I had the compressor out. It's a learning process to be sure!

A lot of working on this car is just a simple learning process. No need to get too irritated or anxious. Just be patient and it will all come apart eventually.

I decided to also remove the front header at this point, because I am sending both the front and rear headers and the fuel crossover pipe to Jet-Hot to be ceramic coated.

The 2nd picture shows the started solenoid. The large nut would not easily come loose, and turning it, broke the ceramic casing that it's fastend to. Heat is SO destructive. Hopefully the Jet-Hot coating (more on that below) will eliminate this type of heat damage, both here and elsewhere (i.e., the alternator) in the future.

Taking the passenger side fuel tank out is a good and worthwhile task. It makes everything SO MUCH EASIER to get to. Although the strap broke-off at the nut due to rust. It's hard enough to get to the front header bolts with it out. I can't imagine doing it with it still in. In fact, that's exactly "why" I removed it in the first place. If anyone has a suggestion on how to fix the strap, please let me know.

Tomorrow I'll try to find straps (as recommended in another thread) to pull it (the engine) with. Anyone have a recommendation on what to get, or how long to get them? I saw some that were 10-feet at Pep-Boy's, but they were tow-straps, rated at 500lbs.. They're probably enough if I double them, but I'm not sure. I've also heard a come-along or a ratchet is also great device to have on the strap for tilting forwards and backwards, in addition to a leveler (which I already have) for side-to-side adjustments.

On a side note:

I know this is a bit off-topic for this thread, but I figure it's probably of interest to anyone getting this far into the engine compartment. And it's a worthwhile diversion.

To wit.... I received an estimate package from Jet-Hot with a color brochure and a video. In the brochure is a picture of a heat comparison that Car-Craft performed between a Jet-Hot coated header, and a non-coated header. See the picture below. It speaks for itself.

It also occured to me that the crossover pipe for the fuel tanks is very close to the headers. I measured mine, and it's about 4". I blieve my car may have originally had an additional heatshield, but it is no longer present. Yours may be missing too. And in any event, I don't think a simple heat shield can provide the same kind of protetion that the cramic coating will.

If (as indicated in the picture) the header is over 500 degrees while running, what might be the temperature inside that thin little crossover pipe? And how hot is the gas? That's a frightening thought! Even inside the tanks, it must be close to 200 dgrees or even more. And I think that could be very very dangerous. Ferrari's "are" after all, known for burning. And anything you can do to prevent that is (to me) a "must have".

With that in mind, I think it makes 'having' vs. 'not having' the ceramic coating a simple saftey issue. And one that should probably not be ignored, except at ones own peril.

Just my opinion of course.

Engine comes out on Saturday. I'll take more pictures of the process then and then post them when it's out and ready for me to tackle the details of the syncro fix.

Thanks for watching!
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Whoops! Here's the Jet-Hot picture. For some reason it failed to upload the first time:
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Yippie!!!

The syncro has arrived.

Holy Chrikieee that was expensive!!
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OUCH!!! Mother of GOD....what's it made of? Plutonium?

I wonder if you could get it right from ZF for less?

 

It is a ZF.

Newman suggested T.Rudlands, because he (Ted) had ZF make up a few thousand or so.

Ted never answered my eMail so I called and got someone named John.

So this is from "Maranello" (aka T. Rutlands)


Ugh! For some reason my right BUTT cheek is really sore!

 

Okay!

It's been about two weeks since I last posted, and I figure it's time for an update!

After wrestling with the ring-nuts, I finally got the drop-down gears removed. Then the clutch and flywheel. Now I'm staring at the inner ring-nuts and gears!

I'll need to buy the tools to remove those nuts. And I think I am going to take the advice of a few others here on FChat, and buy and impact gun to remove the nuts, instead of using the torque wrench. I think that will probably make the job a lot easier.

I don't know if I can save the two inner ring-nuts and use them again. Any advice on that would be helpful. I was very careful, and gently bent the collar on the right-side nut back and it is ready to remove. And I don't see any reason it can't be used again, unless peening it back cracks the collar. But so far, it looks pretty good. The one on the left may be another story. It's bent down pretty good. So I may have trouble getting that one off without damaging the collar.

The first pic is the drop-down ring-nuts. They got trashed. And I wrote about (and recieved a lot of great help from others here on FChat) the removal process here.

The next picture is how the engine sits right now, with the inner ring-nuts exposed.

The 3rd picture is what I think is the most important tool I've used so far.

And the 4th picture shows what I've done with that tool!

I'll post more, when I get the tools to remove the nuts and start that process.

So until then... Thanks for watching!
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